FDA new york state, vaping indoors can be punishable by criminal misconduct?
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Every one here seems to agree that it is WM's right to ban folk form their stores anytime they want, as it is private property
However, This same issue came up in Texas during the early days of the Texas carry laws. Several stores, (WM, put up signs to the effect that carry on the premises was not allowed.
Checkers were to the point of asking for ID when checking out, and IF they have a carry license, they would call the police. LOL!!! They screwed up, as several people they called to have arrested WERE off duty LEO's. And this finally ended up in the Courts. But Walmart was the one that ended up on trial. HaHa!!!
The ruling was, although WM owned the property, many stores were in the cities, thru tax credits, which of course were from tax payers. In other words, the john Q public, and the biggie was that even though it was indeed a privately owned business, it was open to the public, Which of course, is necessary to their business. And in so being, they could not order the public to ignore state law, or county, and city laws at their whim. And as Carrying while licensed,and going about ones daily business was legal, there was no president that allowed WM to set law, or order the public to obey their personal wishes.
The public, (That's us) have certain rights. You cannot be ordered from a business unless you are doing something that is unlawful. Tress pas is unlawful. But is not related to anything but intentional breaking of a law while on the premises. And here in Texas, at least, there is no such law. For carry, or vaping! Both are legal activities. Texas has ruled that Vaping is NOT Smoking! Woo-Hoo!!!
At least not yet! Unless you are otherwise breaking a law or ordnance, you cannot be ordered to leave. Plain and simple!
If you could, what would prevent any business form refusing to do business with anyone that say, wore a color they didn't like?, Or a hat they didn't like. Sure it happens, but if taken to court, it will not stand up.
True private property, is your place of residence, or other property that does not have the public on the property as a course of daily business. It is a place of business, and certain allowances have to be given. This was all covered in the Civil Rights Days! You cannot refuse to do business with a person because you don't like the way they look, Color of their skin, or what ever!, Only for doing something against the law. Which tress passing and lottering is. And both have to be in the context of intentionally breaking the law.
Folks need to know the laws, and their rights. As you can see here, most don't.
Ex Leo,
KnifeMaker
However, This same issue came up in Texas during the early days of the Texas carry laws. Several stores, (WM, put up signs to the effect that carry on the premises was not allowed.
Checkers were to the point of asking for ID when checking out, and IF they have a carry license, they would call the police. LOL!!! They screwed up, as several people they called to have arrested WERE off duty LEO's. And this finally ended up in the Courts. But Walmart was the one that ended up on trial. HaHa!!!
The ruling was, although WM owned the property, many stores were in the cities, thru tax credits, which of course were from tax payers. In other words, the john Q public, and the biggie was that even though it was indeed a privately owned business, it was open to the public, Which of course, is necessary to their business. And in so being, they could not order the public to ignore state law, or county, and city laws at their whim. And as Carrying while licensed,and going about ones daily business was legal, there was no president that allowed WM to set law, or order the public to obey their personal wishes.
The public, (That's us) have certain rights. You cannot be ordered from a business unless you are doing something that is unlawful. Tress pas is unlawful. But is not related to anything but intentional breaking of a law while on the premises. And here in Texas, at least, there is no such law. For carry, or vaping! Both are legal activities. Texas has ruled that Vaping is NOT Smoking! Woo-Hoo!!!
At least not yet! Unless you are otherwise breaking a law or ordnance, you cannot be ordered to leave. Plain and simple!
If you could, what would prevent any business form refusing to do business with anyone that say, wore a color they didn't like?, Or a hat they didn't like. Sure it happens, but if taken to court, it will not stand up.
True private property, is your place of residence, or other property that does not have the public on the property as a course of daily business. It is a place of business, and certain allowances have to be given. This was all covered in the Civil Rights Days! You cannot refuse to do business with a person because you don't like the way they look, Color of their skin, or what ever!, Only for doing something against the law. Which tress passing and lottering is. And both have to be in the context of intentionally breaking the law.
Folks need to know the laws, and their rights. As you can see here, most don't.
Ex Leo,
KnifeMaker
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That was very interesting, thank you
You close by saying that people need to know their rights, and that most here don't. However, your detailed example is specifically referring to the state of Texas. New York is quite different.
As it stands, Erie county legislators (the county containing the walmart in question, as well as Buffalo, NY) are planning to introduce a bill in a few weeks or so that will ban vaping anywhere that smoking is currently banned. If this passes, then Walmart will be well within its legal right to refuse to allow vaping on the premises, no matter what.
Prior to that, I honestly don't think that if people attempted to stand up for their rights in this instance, they would be supported. There is a strong, growing anti-vaping climate here, and chances are walmart's "right" (or rather, the "right" of the public to not be exposed to "passive vapor") would be supported over that of vapers.
Alas, New York is not Texas, not in the slightest.
And Thank God for That! Now if NY and Cali' weird could just keep their politics and social order to themselves!!! Dragon, I
just copied this from YOUR Post! -----
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering." – Doctor Who----
Ain't it the truth DragonP! Well said!
Now back to our station,
However, What I was referring to is US Constitutional law. Not State Rights related laws. Or your Citizens Rights. (Yes, I know that Cali, and NY ignore them. You don't have to tell me that! LOL!!!, U.S. Const-What???)
Be that as it may, I was very-very sleepy when I wrote all this and apologies if I rambled on far too much. I did leave out a Big part of it.
Just as we the people rarely know our rights under the law's, very few store managers, much less store clerks and other employees know the law at all. To compound this, you may be shocked to learn that very few LEO's know much about the laws they are asked to enforce at all. They are not Lawyers, nor are they Judges. They spend a short time in the Academy, mostly to to learn simple procedures, assertive control , but mostly traffic laws. So don't expect them to side with you. You were the one being complained about by the store rep. (Not to mention the store it's self is much higher in the Tax Paying Pecking Order than we lowly shoppers. LOL!!!)
The officer is going to try to defuse the situation as quickly as possible. Either by having you leave the area, or by arresting you. ( But he or she would usually much rather you simply comply and leave with out incident. The Paper Work for the officer is a B.....!)
Do not confront the store personnel, and DO NOT argue with he officer with speeches about your perception of your rights. He doesn't care, and it will only cause further conflict. That is an argument for the court, should it go that far! If ask to leave by the store, do so.
Return later, and avoid vapeing within their store! If the officer request that you leave, do so. Arguing only puts you in danger of being arrested. And even if you were within your rights, you can still be charged with disobeying a lawful order. It's a no win situation! Simply agreeing to put it away, and saying I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I couldn't vape here, would have probably ended the situation in the first place. ( Yeah, I know that you knew that you shouldn't have been openly vaping in there, but it can still defuse the situation without further trouble.
So, how do you avoid all this? Simple. Use a little bit of common sense and a good amount of judgement and common decency. We already know that folks mostly hate smoking now days, so don't make such an effort to look like your smoking in the first place! Learn how to Stealth Vape. Trust me on this one. I can get away with it just about "ANY Where!!! Doctors office, in stores. Inside of Sheriffs dept. Restaurants, you name it. I've vaped there!
Have I been confronted? Sure have! And as much as I hate to admit it, I've lied with a straight face and gotten away with it many times. LOL! (Which is something I normally don't do, but in this case, it is just Plain Good O'l Fun!
And as the case with most successful lies, there is a grain of truth to it.
Example; Sir, Smoking isn't allowed here. Answer=Good! I don't smoke! Then what is that you have there?
Answer, I am a COPD patient, and this is my portable inhalation device. It helps keep my lungs open and prevent an attack.
Works every single time! (Gotta love it!) (Ever notice how stupid most nanny state do- good'ers are? Makes one wonder how they manage to get their was so often)
LOL!!! Now the truth for us here on the ECF. I do have COPD, and an E-Cig "IS" an inhalation device. HeHeHe!!! It's my story and I'm stick'n to it!
I've even gone so far as to electro etch a logo on my older PureSmoker V-3 That says ML Medical Co.
And the staff and snake that is the Medical Symbol. Works every time! LOL!!! I still can't bring myself to etch a logo on the Provari though. LOL!
Most people still haven't seen a mod in the wild around here, and expect an e-cig to look at least like a Real Cig. Just one more reason not to buy those crappy cig "look-a-likes"!
Be a bit watchful of who is watching you, be courteous, and learn how to NOT blow smoke in non smoking areas. "Stealth Vaping" is easy. Just Do it. Do It all you want! Enjoy it all you want. When you want, Where you want! As the old song says, Just Do It until You'r you Satisfied!
Vaping and Loveing It!
Knife
just copied this from YOUR Post! -----
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering." – Doctor Who----
Ain't it the truth DragonP! Well said!
Now back to our station,
However, What I was referring to is US Constitutional law. Not State Rights related laws. Or your Citizens Rights. (Yes, I know that Cali, and NY ignore them. You don't have to tell me that! LOL!!!, U.S. Const-What???)
Be that as it may, I was very-very sleepy when I wrote all this and apologies if I rambled on far too much. I did leave out a Big part of it.
Just as we the people rarely know our rights under the law's, very few store managers, much less store clerks and other employees know the law at all. To compound this, you may be shocked to learn that very few LEO's know much about the laws they are asked to enforce at all. They are not Lawyers, nor are they Judges. They spend a short time in the Academy, mostly to to learn simple procedures, assertive control , but mostly traffic laws. So don't expect them to side with you. You were the one being complained about by the store rep. (Not to mention the store it's self is much higher in the Tax Paying Pecking Order than we lowly shoppers. LOL!!!)
The officer is going to try to defuse the situation as quickly as possible. Either by having you leave the area, or by arresting you. ( But he or she would usually much rather you simply comply and leave with out incident. The Paper Work for the officer is a B.....!)
Do not confront the store personnel, and DO NOT argue with he officer with speeches about your perception of your rights. He doesn't care, and it will only cause further conflict. That is an argument for the court, should it go that far! If ask to leave by the store, do so.
Return later, and avoid vapeing within their store! If the officer request that you leave, do so. Arguing only puts you in danger of being arrested. And even if you were within your rights, you can still be charged with disobeying a lawful order. It's a no win situation! Simply agreeing to put it away, and saying I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I couldn't vape here, would have probably ended the situation in the first place. ( Yeah, I know that you knew that you shouldn't have been openly vaping in there, but it can still defuse the situation without further trouble.
So, how do you avoid all this? Simple. Use a little bit of common sense and a good amount of judgement and common decency. We already know that folks mostly hate smoking now days, so don't make such an effort to look like your smoking in the first place! Learn how to Stealth Vape. Trust me on this one. I can get away with it just about "ANY Where!!! Doctors office, in stores. Inside of Sheriffs dept. Restaurants, you name it. I've vaped there!
Have I been confronted? Sure have! And as much as I hate to admit it, I've lied with a straight face and gotten away with it many times. LOL! (Which is something I normally don't do, but in this case, it is just Plain Good O'l Fun!
And as the case with most successful lies, there is a grain of truth to it.
Example; Sir, Smoking isn't allowed here. Answer=Good! I don't smoke! Then what is that you have there?
Answer, I am a COPD patient, and this is my portable inhalation device. It helps keep my lungs open and prevent an attack.
Works every single time! (Gotta love it!) (Ever notice how stupid most nanny state do- good'ers are? Makes one wonder how they manage to get their was so often)
LOL!!! Now the truth for us here on the ECF. I do have COPD, and an E-Cig "IS" an inhalation device. HeHeHe!!! It's my story and I'm stick'n to it!
I've even gone so far as to electro etch a logo on my older PureSmoker V-3 That says ML Medical Co.
And the staff and snake that is the Medical Symbol. Works every time! LOL!!! I still can't bring myself to etch a logo on the Provari though. LOL!
Most people still haven't seen a mod in the wild around here, and expect an e-cig to look at least like a Real Cig. Just one more reason not to buy those crappy cig "look-a-likes"!
Be a bit watchful of who is watching you, be courteous, and learn how to NOT blow smoke in non smoking areas. "Stealth Vaping" is easy. Just Do it. Do It all you want! Enjoy it all you want. When you want, Where you want! As the old song says, Just Do It until You'r you Satisfied!
Vaping and Loveing It!
Knife
Last edited:
Excellent post Knifemaker 
And at the end of the day, after all is said and done, all any of us really need to keep in mind in situations like this is:
Exactly! That is why I didn't notice any signs at my local walmart - I wasn't looking! I don't need to! I stealth vape everywhere: in the store, in restaurants, at the movies... (my most common stealth vaping is in public restrooms tbh - no one's going to ask what you're doing in there!)
And no one's ever asked me questions because I am so discreet
So yeah, just don't go sauntering through walmart blowing clouds all over the place and you'll be fine
And at the end of the day, after all is said and done, all any of us really need to keep in mind in situations like this is:
Exactly! That is why I didn't notice any signs at my local walmart - I wasn't looking! I don't need to! I stealth vape everywhere: in the store, in restaurants, at the movies... (my most common stealth vaping is in public restrooms tbh - no one's going to ask what you're doing in there!)And no one's ever asked me questions because I am so discreet
So yeah, just don't go sauntering through walmart blowing clouds all over the place and you'll be fine
Hard to get behind the lying aspect, but not so hard when the anti-smoking laws are based on lies.
I vape in many many places and am yet to be confronted. With the way I vape, I can't imagine vaping in a Wal-mart and being confronted. If I were, I'd probably go with "Simply agreeing to put it away, and saying I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I couldn't vape here." I would say 60% chance I go with that, 25% chance I lie (and justify it to myself based on ANTZ lies that have run amok) and 15% chance I become confrontational. Though not really sure cause again, I've never been confronted.
I love your post, but... how does "No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service" fit in there?
I live in San Diego, which is a sub-region of the infamous state of California.
We really can't vape here in non-smoking areas as it is now included in most anti-smoking legislation.
If I ask if I can vape, I'm usually told that I can not.
So I stopped asking, and I stealth vape everywhere.
I've never been noticed, let alone caught.
But I shouldn't HAVE to stealth vape in some of these places.
Especially places like the Del Mar Fair, or the Chargers Stadium, or the Padres ballpark.
Do you realize that according to their rules I now have to LEAVE the ballpark to vape at a Padres game?
That's freaking absurd, and should not be tolerated.
These are things that someday I hope we can change.
We really can't vape here in non-smoking areas as it is now included in most anti-smoking legislation.
If I ask if I can vape, I'm usually told that I can not.
So I stopped asking, and I stealth vape everywhere.
I've never been noticed, let alone caught.
But I shouldn't HAVE to stealth vape in some of these places.
Especially places like the Del Mar Fair, or the Chargers Stadium, or the Padres ballpark.
Do you realize that according to their rules I now have to LEAVE the ballpark to vape at a Padres game?
That's freaking absurd, and should not be tolerated.
These are things that someday I hope we can change.
Simple, they can legally address this with both state and local health codes as well as exposure codes in some locations.
On a lighter note, I always wonder why a man cannot wear, say for instance a Tank Tom in some clubs, yet a Woman can be half naked and NO BODY Complains. Includiing me!! Heck, I will vote for the No shirt! Just say'n !! LOL!!!
Knife
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