newbie DIY understanding percentages, volume vs weight

[jkajfes]

Hi All,
I'm relatively new to ecig, just 4 months into the venture. I've been reading a fair bit and like most newbies went off on a tangent buying different type of hardware to try. After reading a number of threads I even ventured into making my own ejuices. I have no issues with the majority of juices that can purchased and vaped I just like tailoring my own. On this note I've downloaded the eJuice Me Up software and fought it to be pretty straight forward. I also downloaded another program that I saw reference in the forums called Portable juice Calculator. I had trouble with the later as I feel for my purposes it was more than I needed. I also had trouble understanding it with my limited knowledge. Maybe in several months I can come back to it but for now ejuice me up seems more than adequate.

The one thing that is giving me trouble is trying to understanding the relationship between making up juices with a lot of lab equipment or minimizing the apparatus which is mostly glassware and the many syringes you can use. I'll try to keep it simple but my posts always end up being novels in length.

I found there was less of mess and clean up if I measuring everything into one beaker (I have three different sizes to make my volumes) but I didn't want to get involved with syringes and their cleanup. I came across some interesting threads on weighing the liquids, tarring out each as you added them.

In the ejuice me up software there's provision for percentages, ml, and drops. Most of the important stuff is located in the upper left corner, the first four line, get that right and you're good to go. Sometimes I miss or forget to check the Target ratios i.e. the PG/VG relationship... historically I've bought mostly 70/30 ratios but I have been experimenting with less PG and more VG... but you have to be careful in what hardware you use to vape because if it's too thick you have issues with the (some) cartomizers.

There are times when I think I've made a 70/30 mix only to find out later that oops I've done a 50/50 or 60/40... I simply need to pay more attention to what's going on. I will say that everything I've done in DIY mode has vaped ok for me. Of course I'll keep tweeking ingredients and a bunch of other things.

Now down to the issue....

I really like making up juice by weighting the necessary amounts on a small digital scale rather than loading up a syringe (bunches of syringes) using ml or volumetric measurements. Where I'm not sure is ejuice me up doesn't offer or allow or generate entries for weight. That's why I went exploring for other software that might do this...

I just decided that I would use 1ml = 1 gram. I don't believe this is proper (could someone confirm my suspicion) but I felt if I keep the relationship or percentage close I wouldn't first, poison myself and/or second overdose on the nic mg.

I like 12 mg of nic.... so I'm thinking even if I'm off on the 1ml=1g the difference in amount of nic wouldn't be close to say 24mg of nic for the quantities I make in a batch which is never more than 120 ml usually it's 15ml to test and 30ml for regular vaping of something I like.

so I plug the numbers into ejuice me up which gives me the ml I need and those ml I simply change or directly convert the resulting number to grams on a one for one basis. I doubt this is proper so maybe someone a more experienced DIY can give some advice here.

Flavours are a very subjective thing and one must experiment with strength to their liking.

 

[SpyderBite]

Your braver than me. I'm a 5 year vaper and only recently did I choose to trust my neophyte chemistry skills and diy.

I don't use any lab equipment. Just a couple of syringes and disposable protective gloves. I mix my liquids into the container I plan on using. Usually a 30ml or 10ml plastic bottle.

I use ejuicemeup calculator for measurements and I use syringes to measure rather than drops. I get distracted pretty easily so counting drops wasn't going to work for me.

 

[DeloresRose]

In cooking and baking, dry ingredients and liquid ones are measured with different cups and spoons for a reason. I address the making of e-liquid the same way. Liquids have very different weight-to-volume ratios. I would only attempt to make juice by weight if I had a calculator that could take into account the weight of every single ingredient, but if you can do that, it does sound a lot less messy and time consuming.

 

[Boletus]

For wet chemistry, the approximation of 1 ml = 1 gram is often used because that is the density of water. However, the density of VG is 1.26 grams per ml, which is a big difference and should not be ignored when using weight measurements. PG is 1.04 grams per ml, so it is pretty close to water. Nicotine is about 1.1 grams per ml, but you will not use that in standard recipes and just go with the density of the carrier (PG and/or VG).

There is at least one calculator application for weight measurements; search for scale and weight in this subforum.

 

[amoret]

And if it is just for yourself the main need is for it to be repeatable. I am using the correct weights for pg and vg now, but for flavors I'm just leaving the 1:1 since I'm adjusting those to taste as I go, and as long as I'm consistent I can get the same proportions each time.

 

[williebb123]

in the diy section there is a calculator that can be set up for weight can be downloaded here https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ceu7kr789fq5wdt/Lmw4X_Xg9j
here is something else to look at

 

[Steamix]

Yeah, fiddling around with a load of syringes gets a bit tiring. Especially when mixing individual, customized small quantities for a ton of buddies like I do.
Precision scale is a bout 15 bucks, was one of my early purchases. Never regretted it.

Boletus listed the densities you're dealing with. Nic and PG you can get away with 1gm = 1 ml if you're not to finicky about slight variations in your recipe, not so with VG. Means you either adjust the math for the VG or get a tool that has an option for mixing by weight.

If you're adding alcohol or using some - of the very few - ethanol based flavours you're looking at 1ml = 0.79 grams....

 

[jkajfes]

thank you all, for the replies so far. When I did the original post I forgot to mention a few points and one of them has surfaced in a few replies. The aspect of the SG of some of the ingredients. I don't have a background in chemistry so some things are a little harder to absorb than others. But I think it would be wise to account for the SG values. As Boletus mention the SG of VG is 1.26 and this different should be accounted for in calculations. Something I didn't do. So thank you for the heads up.

I did see a couple of programs that offered weight calculations as part of the package and I've tried working with a couple but they aren't as simple and straight forward as Ejuice one. I'll have a look the one williebb123 mentioned. I wonder if eJuice could be changed to include weight calculations. Has anyone questioned this? I wonder if one should email them and ask for this additional feature or it a programing nightmare? I really like that one.

The other thing is that I use nic PG 100MG and I know this is very concentrated and I think most DIY like to reduce high nic concentrations down to around 36MG or some other value that helps to makes the math easier for them to use in their calculations.

I would prefer to stay with the higher concentration and pay more attention to how I'm handling it. I found with syringes moving about in the work area when working the volume aspect... I thought wide and shallow containers would make it easier to draw up liquids in the syringe. I notice that the bottles I have for the raw ingredient tend to be screw capped (preferably child proof), narrow in diameter and taller then the length of the syringes making it difficult to suck up liquids as the amounts are used and eventually I had to tip some of the containers to get at the liquids or pour the continents into a shallower containers and draw the liquid from there and then the additional cleanup of any extra containers used. Hence the reason some of us like to go the weight route.

Changing the containers to squeeze bottles with longer tips seems to work well.

Thankfully most of the flavour containers are small and/or have droppers or a means of controlling drops as you added those ingredients.

I think it's a given that the base nic concentration I'm using needs to be handled carefully, securely stored when not in use unless someone has a compelling reason not to?

again thank you for the comments/tips.

 

[mrfixit]

Well first you would need to weigh your container next you add say 1ml of pg and record the weight subtract the container weight from that number and you'll have the weight of 1ml of pg repeat the process with 1ml of vg to get that number. Then you would have to weigh your flavorings in the same manner. This seems a bit much to go through.

I've been doing diy for about three years now and I use the drop method for flavorings and use ml for the nic base/pg/vg. I only use one syringe for that.

I like using the drop measurement for flavorings as it gives the most control over the final taste of my mad scientist elixirs that way when I taste test and it seems weak I'll let it sit and steep a bit then if it's still weak I can add a drop or two more. It's also helpful when doing a multiple flavor liquid.

Hope some of my rambling was of help to you. Congratulations on getting away from the tobacco based units

 

[Boletus]

Regarding working with 100 mg/ml base, that is what I do, but I vape 33 mg/ml, so it is not quite as dangerous to me as someone with lower nic tolerance. But that does not mean I don't have to be careful, nor that contaminating a surface others might come in contact with would be any less serious. Rubber gloves and eye protection should be used. I work with everything in an empty sink and clean it when done. Rowdyplace has a blog with a unique and inexpensive solution for a mixing station that looks really useful:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/rowdyplace/5907-homemade-diy-tools.html

Regarding syringes, there are 3 inch long needles out there. Any deeper than that plus as much of the syringe body you can fit in the container would require a shallower container, putting it in a squeeze bottle (great when mixing by weight), or a pipette.

 

[jkajfes]

some of the ideas in your link were kool, thanks for sharing and man do you have a lotta flavours to vape... enjoy them!

 

[Boletus]

some of the ideas in your link were kool, thanks for sharing and man do you have a lotta flavours to vape... enjoy them!

If that was meant for me, the kudos should go to ECF user rowdyplace, whose ideas and blog I pointed you toward.

 

[fat1]

I assume you are only mixing for yourself. I am the same, I didn't read the entire thread due but here is my view. I have only been DIY for a couple months and I started out mixing by weight before I had ever developed a recipe based on volume. In the end it doesn't matter how well it translates or calculates, what matters is that you can repeat it and scale it. My actual recipe is something like this:

62g of PG
8g of nic (100mg/ml diluted in PG)
30g of VG
5g of flavor

I call it 70/30 @ 8mg strength with 5% flavor but if you do the actual math you will see it is closer to say 71/29 or 72/28 due to the SG of VG being 1.24. But I like it and I can scale it to tanker load if I need to. I created a simple excel spread sheet to calculate the actual volumes to help convert recipes should I ever want to but it doesnt really make THAT much of a difference because I am not a flavor connoisseur with a delicate palette.

And to be completely honest. The first "liter" I made I did convert everything from ml to g based on the SG ratings I received from my vendor and made it 70/30. Flavor still came after at 5g per 100g...still not quite 5%. So I guess technically I make kilos not liters but whatever.

I hope I didn't ramble too badly but the point is most of the people I know can't detect a few tenths of a gram of flavor one way or the other.

 

[fat1]

I could probably make you a spreadsheet to plug in custom numbers if you find some of the calculators too complicated. I can't get too fancy with it but just basic conversions, could probably account for percentages if you want to specify them as well

 

[amoret]

I find the calculator referenced above to work way better than eJuiceMeUp. It not only gives you the option to work by weight, but also has a lot of other good features. There is a thread devoted to it (no, you don't need to read the whole thing) with a lot of good information. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/480587-new-calculator-try.html