The costs of running this huge site are paid for by ads. Please consider registering and becoming a Supporting Member for an ad-free experience. Thanks, ECF team.

Nic PH Balancing Experiment

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by Road_House, Apr 8, 2018.

Tags:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Image has been removed.
URL has been removed.
Email address has been removed.
Media has been removed.
  1. Road_House

    Road_House Senior Member ECF Veteran

    May 12, 2013
    SE PA
    Hi all,

    I've got a little experiment going and would appreciate any feedback from any of you guys n gals that are better schooled than I am with the chemistry behind this. I'm not sure whether this is simply a ph balance, creation of nic salts, or both.

    First a little background.

    Been vaping and DIYing my juice for several years. I stocked up on nic a few years ago due to the FDA issue so my freezer is quite full. Last fall I got a RTA and at first it was great, a step up from the Kanger sub tank I had been using. Running dual coils, 1 ohm total at 30 watts so nothing excessive. Then I began to have issues with throat irritation so I went through all the usual suspects, coils, wick, etc. My juice is 12 mg/ml with VG a minimum of 70%. Flavors limited to tobacco in very modest percentages, caramel, chocolate. Total flavors in my mix is 10% or less. So, I think I have ruled out any causes being from my gear or juice except for the possibility that the ph is on the alkaline side and I've developed an intolerance to it. The reason I believe that is I just purchased a couple bottles of nic salt juice (pre-made ready to vape flavor) and have no problem vaping that at 25 mg/ml which is twice the nic level I'm used to. I have not been able to actually test the ph of my juice yet but hope to later today and will report my findings. I need to also test my Nic to see where I'm starting at.

    My process is based on info from a couple postings on this forum. One linked to this research article. https://gfn.net.co/downloads/2016/posters/The%20effect%20of%20organic%20acids%20on%20e-liquid%20Nicotine%20stability%20and%20relief%20of%20irritative%20taste.pdf

    Here's a snippet from that article.
    upload_2018-4-8_11-39-40.png

    The other info was from a post that gave a nic suppliers recipe for 100 ml of 60 mg/ml nic
    It totaled 94 mg of VG and distilled water and 6 grams of what I assume was pure nicotine powder. From this info I calculated that those 6 grams in 100 ml would work out to .6 grams per 10 ml. I selected a middle of the road option from the chart above with acid to nicotine ratio of 1:2 using Malic Acid, easy availability at your local wine making supply store and it seems to have a good balance of ph adjustment, irritation reduction and less degradation of nicotine as compared to citric acid. So here's what I did, and again, feedback is most welcome.

    Acid solution: Dissolved 9 grams of Malic Acid in 9 ml of hot distilled water, so in theory each ml of solution will equal 1 gram of Malic Acid by weight. Since our nic is calculated by weight we need to do the same for the acid so the ratio we use is as accurate as possible. I didn't weigh the Malic Acid but rather went by a chart that stated 1 tsp equaled 4.5 grams. I realize this is not super precise but there's no danger to being slightly off for this ingredient at this point.

    Base mix. I put 20 ml of 60 mg/ml nic in the bottle. Remember, each 10 ml contains .6 grams of nicotine, so now we have 1.2 grams of nicotine in this 20 ml. For a 1:2 ratio acid to nic we then need .6 grams of Malic Acid so I added .6 ml of my Malic Acid solution. Based on the slight dilution of the acid solution plus the approximate loss of 2.6% of nic from the addition of the acid we now have a ph adjusted base somewhere around 56.75 mg/ml.

    I made a 10 ml test bottle, reducing down to 20 mg/ml nic, 70 VG/ 30 PG, with about 6.2% flavor. Mostly caramel @ 6 % and a few drops of tobacco and a few drops berry flavor.

    Steeping now and will test ph before I vape it. I am curious if this process does create salts but either way, if the more neutral ph reduces irritation I'll be a happy camper. Years ago, when DIY was in it's infancy, we played with adding drops of apple cider vinegar or lemon juice. The theory was there but never saw noticeable results. Not surprising when you really have no idea of strengths and ratios of what you are adding.

    Here's hoping this works without making my lips pucker. I hate sour flavors......
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Road_House

    Road_House Senior Member ECF Veteran

    May 12, 2013
    SE PA
    Not sure how accurate these are. All I could find today were aquarium water test strips but they do seem to show some success in lowering the PH. Original untreated base on far right is at or over 8 while the flavored test sample and acid treated base mixes ( 2 on far left) are in the low 6's. Interesting though that my daily vape that seemed to be causing the irritation seems to be pretty neutral as far as PH goes. My only hope here may be that this has converted the freebase nic into nic salts to make it a smoother vape. I'll try a test vape later.
    upload_2018-4-8_17-6-28.png
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. untar

    untar Vaping Master

    Feb 7, 2018
    Germany
    I don't know what exactly your powder is (tbh you should make sure what exactly that is) but pure nic isn't a powder. What you have is most likely (I'm guessing) already a salt of some sorts.

    Putting acid into a diluted base won't do much, it will react with everything that's in there, some of the nic certainly but also VG and PG. I'm not convinced you'd have a good salt yield simply from that.
    As you maybe started with some sort of salt there's a possibility the acid won't do anything with the nic and only react to VG/PG and later, if there's any left, flavor components.

    I may be dead wrong with the salt powder, you should research what you have there.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Road_House

    Road_House Senior Member ECF Veteran

    May 12, 2013
    SE PA
    I used Malic Acid powder to make my solution, purchased from a local wine making supply shop, so no worries there.
    That's the only powder I'm using. What I assumed was a dry weight reference of 6 grams in that vendor nic recipe was probably a shorter way of saying they added 6000 mg of pure liquid nic to get the 100 ml of 60 mg/ml base. Not sure what that does to my acid to nic ratio calculations since I'm probably using a weight measurement on the acid and a liquid measurement for the nic?

    I've seen that adding Benzoic Acid is used to make nic salts. Not sure if there are additional additives or processes to get there, but was hoping using Malic Acid could achieve the same end result.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. untar

    untar Vaping Master

    Feb 7, 2018
    Germany
    There's a misunderstanding, what I was referring to was this
    Or was that a typing error?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Road_House

    Road_House Senior Member ECF Veteran

    May 12, 2013
    SE PA
    Nope, just an initial wrong assumption on my part that when they (nic supplier) said 6 grams that they meant by weight, so I assumed powder. Most likely they used 6 grams liquid or 6 ml pure liquid nic. That would be 6000 mg of nic diluted in 100 ml of carrier (VG) gives you 60 mg/ml
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. untar

    untar Vaping Master

    Feb 7, 2018
    Germany
    Ah, that clears it up nicely. My Impression was you were sitting on some bags of dubious white nic powder and I was silently panicking a little :lol:

    Sadly acidity alone won't tell you how much of the nicotine gets protonated, I know that PG tends to degrade in acid and VG can form esters (at least with citric acid).

    Still interested in hearing how it worked out ;)
     
    • Like Like x 3
  8. classwife

    classwife Admin Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Moved to DIY E-Liquid from General E-Liquid Discussion
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Road_House

    Road_House Senior Member ECF Veteran

    May 12, 2013
    SE PA
    Sorry for leaving anyone following this hanging. My mom went in the hospital the day I started this and went downhill fast. She passed a few days later.

    Anyway, I mixed up a sample to vape at 20 mg/ml nic strength. I'm used to 12 mg/ml. I have to say the 20 is not harsh at all so may be on to something here. A few years back we played with adding drops of apple cider vinegar or lemon juice. I think we had the right idea but just not adding enough to do much. No apparent effect as far as flavor or tartness to report either.
     
    • Love Love x 2
  10. IDJoel

    IDJoel Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2015
    Boise, ID
    Sorry for your loss, @Road_House.:(

    Thanks for the update.:)
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  11. stols001

    stols001 Mistress of the Dark Nicotinic Arts Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 30, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    I'm sorry to hear about your mom @Road_House . Thank you for the update.

    Anna
     
  12. dannyv45

    dannyv45 ECF DIY E-Liquid Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 12, 2013
    New Jersey
    I'm sorry to here of your moms passing and my thoughts are with you.

    I really think your on to something here and it has peaked my interest because I also have a large stock pile of freebase Nic (from the Nic Armageddon period) and would like to mellow out the harshness. I think Kurt our resident chemist may be interested in what your doing and may be a lot of help here so I would suggest maybe PMing him with a link to this thread, experiment process, and results of your testing.

    I will be following this very closely
     
    • Like Like x 3
  13. Road_House

    Road_House Senior Member ECF Veteran

    May 12, 2013
    SE PA
    • Like Like x 2
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice