Nicorette .5mg nasal spray...triggers intense cravings?

[Vaporista]

Cravings.....I've not had any cravings since quitting smoking and going direct to 24mg juice, but after a few weeks, I finally had the courage to try one of the few bottles of 0.5mg Nicotine nasal spray I have lying around...Just for a change more than anything else...I say courage because you need it when you try this stuff.
It feels like shooting Phosphoric acid directly into your brain via your nose. You start with good intentions. In my case I want a 1.5mg nicotine dose so that's one squirt up each nostril and one extra squirt. (these are measured sprays) So. I spray the first and before I can even pull the applicator out to spray the second, such unbelievable pain stops me in my tracks. I can't move a hand. Hell I've been Taser'd. My brain sizzles. I want to scream but I can't. My nostrils have been flooded with concentrated Habanero oil and the fire is whooshing through sinus passages I never thought I had... The stuff is probably blazing new trails through my head.
Think red hot poker that has been dipped in napalm and shoved up your nose... That's what it feels like. Then I notice my feet start stamping all by themselves and suddenly my eyes flood with tears. I can't see a thing but I can feel the huge wet warm rivers running down my face. It takes several moments before I can blink my way clear. Maybe that was my bodys inner fire extinguishing system backwashing out through my eyes.
Then the stinging starts. I hear it first though. it's the sound of the first few drops of cold water hitting a smoking skillet. Then comes the avalanche of acupuncture needles, discharged from what seems like a shotgun somewhere near my mouth and they sting evey milimeter of exposed tissue in my mouth, nose and all spaces in between. I repeat the process in the other nostril. By now, when I open my eyes I see that I'm halfway down my driveway. I don't have the courage for a third squirt. The post nasal drip starts almost immediately and I run back inside the house looking for something to get the godawful taste out of my mouth.
I empty a mug of hours old cold coffee.
And within moments I feel a calmness. A warmth. A serenity even. I feel good.
Now a few hours later after vaping 24mg I get a craving for cigarettes. But this cannot happen. It's not an option. I change juices. I vape more, but the nicotine craving won't be quieted. I eye the nicorette spray next to me and I contemplate going through hell again for a fix. Hell doesn't seem so bad considering the peace I'll feel after the spray. So I gather my courage and here we go again... Poker iron glowing red

Note: The product is Nicorette Nasal Spray manufactured by Pharmacia LTD in the UK. Contains 200 sprays of 0.5mg Nicotine in a 10ml bottle containing 10g/ml nicotine.

I've been planning to Vape this supply of mine, but I can't seem to get the courage to do so after Tropical Bob's dilution experience...

 

[PlanetScribbles]

I know what you mean. It's akin to being stabbed in the skull with a blunt spoon

 

[exogenesis]

I've always thought these were the most effective yet most un-usable
NRT out there, as long as you can stand the intense burning nose thing,
which I can't.

Basically its's 10 mg/ml quality nicotine in water
(+ other 'formulation' chemicals as below).
About 10 ml for about £15 = not so different to juice price.

You certainly don't get the insta-nicotine if you put the
same amount of 10 mg/ml PG juice up your nose (don't ask).

But vaping it ?, I'd be cautious,
3 possible things I can think of that might occur:
1 you either lose it all out of your atty (too thin)
2 it'll not work in the atty at all - too much water?, nicotine all destroyed on coil ?
3 it'll work so well you get a excessive 'effective' dose,
i.e. without the 'moderating' effect of PG/VG, and horrible
burning in your lungs - eek!

Wonder which it would be ?

Ingredients:

10 mg/ml nicotine

Preservative:
Methyl And Propyl P-Hydroxybenzoate

pH modifiers/stablilisers:
Disodium Phosphate
Sodium Dihydrogen Phosphate
Citric Acid

chemistry modifiers/stablilisers:
Sodium Chloride
Polysorbate 80
Disodium Edetate (EDTA)

beta-Ionone (rose perfume)

Water

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

You certainly don't get the insta-nicotine if you put the
same amount of 10 mg/ml PG juice up your nose (don't ask).


Ask. Guessing you'd recommend against this?

 

[Vaporer]

exo,

I have a few metered sprayers and had considered this. It could even be flavored.
Did you notice any long term nic adsorbtion? We know vaping is slower to adsorb. this seems to support the PG/nic bonding from the determining nic thread.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...erest-determining-nicotine-dvap-new-post.html

I read the other day here somewhere that a person used the nasal inhaler in the mouth and it adsorbed very quickly.
If the burn is that bad, seems a 50% dilute wit a little flavoring 2x an hr might be not so bad.

 

[raddiver]

Did you notice any long term nic adsorbtion? We know vaping is slower to adsorb.

I would think that the nrt would absorb while vaping would be adsorbing.

or maybe im just not understanding the questions because adsorb and absorb are slightly different.

 

[exogenesis]

Yes, if the slow release we all experience with e-juice is all
down to the 'encapsulating' effect of glycols (PG/VG/PEG),
and nic. does get to the bloodstream, but on 'slow release'
cf quick release with water/alcohol solutions,
then maybe a weak version of this could be usable,
as long as you could put up with/mask the unpleasant effect.

The nasal spray chucks out 0.5 mg nicotine (for each nostril squirt),
in about 20 to 50 microlitres per squirt, vaping gives 6 microlitres e-juice per 60 ml puff,
(DVap's determination) so for 36 mg/ml this is 0.2 mg nicotine, so 5 vape-puffs
equals the nic. in one double-squirt dose.

People repeat-vape, & you certainly can't 'squirt' sequentially very frequently.

I'd say if you were to try inhaling this aqueous nic. solution, you'd want
to dilute it far more than 1 in 2, to avoid horrible 'burning'.
What degree of 'unpleasantness' did the person who took it orally experience?


btw where is Tropical Bob's 'dilution' experiment, anyone got a link?

 

[Vaporer]

exo,

He said it was nasty tasting...well it wasnt meant to go on taste buds....lol
He described a slight burning instant nic hit.

Reminded me of a nitroglycerine sprayer , shoot....5-10 sec till effect.

I havent tried the nic spray, just ran the math. Its feasible if diluted to the point of not shoving a soldering iron up your nose. Water may or may not be the best carrier.
Certainly PG/VG/PEG is holding adsorption. PGA may be a good alternative.

Due to what gets in, time isnt really a big factor as long as its not to slow.
If it took 4 per nostril in an hr without discomfort, some may leave PV's altogether!
Others may still like the vape and just use 0nic for the oral fixations.

I still like the idea for flavoring it though. Dry snuff is flavored and can linger for 10-15min after use.

Looks like my Flonase sprayer is coming apart lol I'll have to claibrate it with each batch since its output will change with viscosity. I have a couple of emptys.
I dont throw anything away.......my wife does not understand this.

With no heating loss the concentration should be able to be reduced.

 

[Vaporista]

The nasal spray chucks out 0.5 mg nicotine (for each nostril squirt),
in about 20 to 50 microlitres per squirt, vaping gives 6 microlitres e-juice per 60 ml puff,
(DVap's determination) so for 36 mg/ml this is 0.2 mg nicotine, so 5 vape-puffs
equals the nic. in one double-squirt dose.

People repeat-vape, & you certainly can't 'squirt' sequentially very frequently.

I'd say if you were to try inhaling this aqueous nic. solution, you'd want
to dilute it far more than 1 in 2, to avoid horrible 'burning'.
What degree of 'unpleasantness' did the person who took it orally experience?


btw where is Tropical Bob's 'dilution' experiment, anyone got a link?

Link http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...rapy/648-nicotine-inhalator-4.html#post557352

 

[Vaporista]

beta-Ionone (rose perfume)

Water

I don't have the ingredients list but my batch is from 2007 and I'll tell you there is no chance that it smells anything like rose It is unflavoured -just a strong medicinal type horribly unpleasant taste.
I suppose this 0.5mg metered spray is the crack ....... of the nicotine world, I have been trying for a dose of 1.5 mg which is equiv of one normal Peter Stuyvesant Red cigarette but unfortunately the agony of the spray is too unbearable to get in three squirts in rapid sucession.
I've been using it two days now and the pain has not diminished, neither has watering eyes, and that automatic hands above the head reflex once the first couple of sprays have been discharged.
I'm on 24 mg juice (haven't tested the 36mg to see if your 5 vape= 1 squirt theory is true- but somehow I doubt this even though the math says otherwise) and I could vape 24mg all day and not get the effect that a double squirt of the 0.5mg spray has after 120 seconds.
EDIT: I managed to get 1.5mg (three squirts) in and the effect after 120 seconds is a feeling of intense wellbeing but those 120 seconds were the worst of my life. I now know how the poor bunnies being tested for shampoo/cosmetics must feel
What is interesting is the effects drop off very quickly and leave a certain "shakiness" for lack of a better word and yes cravings for more. The e-cig takes the edge off though but I think the brain is expecting a bigger dose of nicotine. E-cigs are sustained release nicotine pills while the spray is the nicotine intravenous injection
This metaphor works...

 

[exogenesis]

Thanks for the link Vaporista, I think you're spot on with that metaphor.

...
That running-around burn is what hits nasal snuff users when they start out. Eyes bulge and tear up. Eyebrows shoot up to the hairline. Mouth grimaces. And sneezing ensues. Keep it up and the nose gets very used to it. Only a slight burn with the good stuff.

Let us know how vaping nasal spray fluid works. I once diluted e-liquid to nasal spray strength, sprayed it into each nostril -- and it about blew my head off. Never again.

I assume TB diluted the e-juice with water then ?,
didn't think of that for nasal 'application', only extra PG.

Tell us how it works out Vaporer, be carefull how much you use though!
Perhaps we can combine nitroglycerine & nicotine in a sprayer
for a more explosive effect then 8-o
(actually it might, since it dilates the blood vesels).
Do you use nitroglycerine for angina ?

*Might* experiment with different amounts of water, to see if there's a
'half-way house' between superquick-nic-fix + burning your face off & nothing much:
24mg -> 10 mg with PG
24mg -> 10 mg with DI water
70mg -> 10 mg with DI water
70mg -> 10 mg with 95% ethanol
put 0.1 ml on a cotton bud and carefully apply nasally,
not going to spray it up there !

raddiver, I think it's absorb = 'soak up', like a cotton bud,
adsorb = 'adhere to a surface', so I guess vapour adsorbs to
your lung/oral/nasal membranes & the body absorbs the nicotine.

 

[Vaporista]

*Might* experiment with different amounts of water, to see if there's a
'half-way house' between superquick-nic-fix + burning your face off & nothing much:
24mg -> 10 mg with PG
24mg -> 10 mg with DI water
70mg -> 10 mg with DI water
70mg -> 10 mg with 95% ethanol
put 0.1 ml on a cotton bud and carefully apply nasally,
not going to spray it up there !

.

Might I suggest the possibility of a nasal gel like benzocaine topical a few minutes prior to nicotine administration on the site where the q-tip is applied. Maybe save yourself a world of pain
I looked into the benzocaine vs. lignocaine debate here but lets face it a nicotine spray is going places where q-tips/cotton buds fail to poke.

Results: We found that with respect to pain perceived on delivery of the sprays, lignocaine (Xylocaine) was significantly more painful then benzocaine (Hurricaine) with P < 0.05. In reducing the pain of the procedure itself, there was no significant difference between the 2. With respect to taste, smell, and acceptability, benzocaine did significantly better than xylocaine, P < 0.05. There was no significant difference when results were compared with reference to age, sex, or whether one was a smoker.

Conclusion: Benzocaine is better tolerated than Lignocaine as a topical intranasal local anesthetic spray.

Significance: When possible, choose benzocaine over lignocaine as a topical nasal anesthetic spray.

 

[Vaporer]

Thanks for the info Vaporista.

Exo, I was even thinking of a 3 way combo. The original eliquid, PG and water.
Something tells me ethanol is gonna be unpleasant. I've been wrong before.

I also have a couple expired nitro sprayers. Since the one persons experience transferred so well through mucous application....maybe the right mix a shot or 2 under the tounge and a bit of flavoring......bet you didnt see that coming, huh?

The only fail part I can see upfront is the "missing thing" we've discussed in other threads. I'm pretty positive it will work for the nic craving, but the not wanting in between factor. Where we vape almost constantly to keep levels constant, using a dissovable like Ariva or Stonewall helps that out, but if a snus is used the craving can be sustained for a longer period of time.

Something to a theory that there are substances in tobacco(snus) that relieve this and the further refined it gets (dissolvable then to nic liquid) those are removed and allow missing sensations to still occur that is beyond just nicotine.

A very small amount (%) of benzocaine, if needed, and might just be used in the solution.
It would have a slight delay, but we are also delaying the immediate effect also.

Edit: Can someone please get a pic of the FDA and ASH pulling thier hair out just reading this thread? lol

 

[exogenesis]

OK so we have: strong e-juice, dilute in water to 10mg,
add a bit of benzocaine, add a bit a of harmine as MAOI,
add some flavour.
Stick up nose (or under tongue) - Bingo...well maybe

Perhaps a suppository for the adventurous ?

Still might try....(not the last one tho)

 

[Vaporer]

Something tells me it would taste better orally......

I'd start with a min of components till the desired effect was reached and then work up adding others to tune it.
Less complications imo............

Edit: to much benzo could numb the olfactory and taste buds

 

[Vaporista]

Well whoever said the pain and agony of the spray does subside over time is not 100% correct. I'm now vaping almost 6-7 ml of 24mg juice and spraying anywhere between 1.5mg and 6mg of pure nic daily and have chosen the spray over snus and snuff after experimenting with both. For some wierd reason I will endure the pain. I don't understand it. But at least I'm still analog free and don't miss them at all (except when I get a whiff of someone smoking close- then it either smells gross or yummy depending on my mindset at the moment.)

 

[Mordred]

It feels like shooting Phosphoric acid directly into your brain via your nose.

Damn, now I want to try some.

 

[Vaporer]

Vaporista,
One thing we have found is that it doesnt seem to be all abt the nicotine.
That residual craving , even when upping the nic, seems to come from other things that has been called WTA. Whole Tobacco Alkaloids.
A test of the tobacco extract ie WTA liquid added to e liquid satisfies that itch you cant scratch in many people. They contain MAOI inhibitors. Just as addicitve if not more so than nicotine depending on the person. snus can be very helpful in these cases where people are addictated to the MAOI's as well or more than the nicotine.
More on it can be read here:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/44958-so-we-getting-we-not-nicotine-new-post.html

 

[TropicalBob]

Exo, maybe you saw that Reynolds bought the pharma company called Niconovum a few days ago. This company has only three nicotine placement products: A snus, a gum and a mouth spray. It's that mouth spray that is of interest. I have yet to experiment with spraying a measured nic solution into my mouth, but I will.

When I did the nasal spray experiment, BTW, I did not dilute with water or alcohol or PG. I used the liquid already in a nasal spray container, designed to open nasal passages. I added e-liquid until I achieved the same level as Big Pharma's nasal spray. Burned like crazy!

And it should be noted that Dr. Jim Loi of Malaysia also tried nasal spray with e-liquid on some of his 300 e-cig testers. Alarmingly, he reported many developed inflammation after a week. That was when I ceased all nasal spray experimentation.

Course, I moved on to nasal snuff ...

 

[jj2]

Edit: Can someone please get a pic of the FDA and ASH pulling thier hair out just reading this thread? lol

I want to see that.!!!