according to the ECTA (Electronic Cigarette Trade Association of Canada) anything above 100ug AP or 2,3 penta is very bad or "fail".
link here.... Electronic Cigarette Trade Association (ECTA) of Canada
thoughts?
Nicoticket Testing Results
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according to the ECTA (Electronic Cigarette Trade Association of Canada) anything above 100ug AP or 2,3 penta is very bad or "fail".
link here.... Electronic Cigarette Trade Association (ECTA) of Canada
thoughts?
We often get questions about the relative safety of vaping. There are some ingedients that industry leaders have determined should be measured. At this time there is no specific "limit" to the amount of any ingredient - but - it is generally accepted that there be little or no Diacetyl. That said, our official position is that the FDA has deemed that ecigarettes are every bit as dangerous as traditional combustible cigarettes. Do your research - I have skin in the game so I am biased!
Diketones!
TSNAs - typically this comes along with Naturally Extracted tobacco...
This is a BOLD move for Nicoticket. We're committed to transparency. We need to give you the data and let you determine your tolerance for risk!
Hey Kent,
I was linked to this post from a comment you made on an article from a different website. There were also a couple of posts in this thread on the diacetyl numbers and i thought i'd share something i heard from Dr. Farsalinos.
The small amount of diacetyl in the juices are very likely from cross contamination ( most likely from impure acetoin according to Dr. F ). The numbers are too low to indicate diacetyl was added to the flavors intentionally. He also said that up until now he hasn't seen any studies which would cause him to believe acetoin is a problem in juice. His concern with acetoin currently is that it's usually an indication that diacetyl is also present ( the amount depends on the quality and purity of acetoin ).
I'm a vanilla freak, I admit it. Please dont change Frenilla. I may have to beat my head on a cement block 
Since you asked
NIOSH has set maximum levels for diacetyl and AP in the work environment. The recommendations are time weighted averages though, so they can't really be used for vapers. But Farsalinos et al calculated equivalent daily amounts in juice by estimating the amount of air breathed in over an 8 hour work day. They came up with 65ug/day in juice for diacetyl (based on 5ppb in air) and 137ug/day for acetyl propionyl (based on 9.3ppb in air). Now if you take a juice that tested at 400 ug per ml ( a few were even higher ) and take a sub-ohmer who vapes 10 ml of the liquid per day ( not unheard of ) that translates to 4000 ug per day or 30 times the NIOSH level. one might argue that NIOSH has set a conservative limit but we are talking 30 times that limit.
What do you thin of Dr. Farsalinos recommendation that these chemicals be removed from e -liquids period ?
I think it's a great first step that you posted these results btw. Any consideration given to posting the results of each juice next to it's description as many vendors have started to do ?
Thanks.
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I think those numbers are unnecessarily low - in the absence of research. Obviously we'd love to have those numbers - but, what if the same liquid contains 2500ug of Acetoin? I'd say that's the worst possible scenario - there's just too little data right now to over-react... that said... we have lots of offerings that meet those requirements. If anyone is sincerely concerned over the numbers, we'd steer them toward the liquid with numbers they find suitable!
This is interesting.
Honestly this whole thing is a witch hunt. Tomorrow we will be measuring something you never heard of - and that's okay (progress, right?). What I want to see is some documentation from the FDA. When I see that, we will probably see major change in the entire industry. In the interim, we're reworking a few flavors in preparation for the inevitable regulation. Making business moves in the absence of evidence is ill advised - I think the prudent thing is to make responsible changes in the recipes knowing that there is potential for potential for harm... but - we all knew that when we picked up our first vape. Honored the spirit of "harm reduction" is what it's all about for me personally - stay true to that and everything will be dandy.
I'm a vanilla freak, I admit it. Please dont change Frenilla. I may have to beat my head on a cement block
I wish I could promise that but we need to rework ALL the vanilla. I am not even the slightest bit worried about it - alpha testing indicates it's an improvement in flavor with a significant reduction in the numbers that are potentially concerning.
Since you asked
NIOSH has set maximum levels for diacetyl and AP in the work environment. The recommendations are time weighted averages though, so they can't really be used for vapers. But Farsalinos et al calculated equivalent daily amounts in juice by estimating the amount of air breathed in over an 8 hour work day. They came up with 65ug/day in juice for diacetyl (based on 5ppb in air) and 137ug/day for acetyl propionyl (based on 9.3ppb in air). Now if you take a juice that tested at 400 ug per ml ( a few were even higher ) and take a sub-ohmer who vapes 10 ml of the liquid per day ( not unheard of ) that translates to 4000 ug per day or 30 times the NIOSH level. one might argue that NIOSH has set a conservative limit but we are talking 30 times that limit.
What do you thin of Dr. Farsalinos recommendation that these chemicals be removed from e -liquids period ?
I think it's a great first step that you posted these results btw. Any consideration given to posting the results of each juice next to it's description as many vendors have started to do ?
Thanks.
I don't condone sub-ohm vaping - but I still do it! Herein lies the problem - as the delivery system gets more efficient, so does the risk. The wattages some of these people are vaping, honestly - ridiculous. Vaping at anything above of 20-30w is probably a sign that the experience of spitting a monster cloud is more important than the possible effects.
If the industry determined that these chemicals need to be reduced, removed, or eliminated I will support it whole-heartedly. I've been BEGGING for direction and guidance on this matter from a source we can trust. No disrespect to Dr. Farsalinos, but he's a cardiologist and hardly qualified to speak on anything other than that. I'm a mental health clinician - I would start flapping my gums about cardiology as though I were an expert. Obviously there is an increasing body of research and evidence, but there are absolutely ZERO confirmed cases of Bronchiolitis Obliterans (BO) in the vaping population.
We are actually in the process of revising the product pages to reflect results - that's the responsible thing to do. What it's all about is helping people making informed choice about risk tolerance. The problem is - it needs to be "boiled down" so a layman can understand it - without over simplifying and minimizing the risk. I write that - and then the logical question that follows... what is the risk... and the answer... no one knows, including Dr. Farsalinos.
Kudos for revising the product pages !
Honestly i believe the BO ( popcorn lung ) thing is both a bogeyman and a red herring in this discussion. Even though it's a disease that's often misdiagnosed, it's still a rare disease even in popcorn factory workers. The real concern is reduced lung function which was/is much more common. AP has also caused reduced lung function in animal studies ( no one will likely fund controlled human studies for obvious ethical reasons ).
Yes, Dr. F is a cardiologist, but this is the same cardiologist that the industry lauded and put on the pedestal when he published study after study showing vaping is much safer than smoking.
I think it is smart that you are working on flavors without ( or much lower levels of ) diketones. The FDA hasn't come out with guidelines yet, but it might be telling that AEMSA vendors who attend FDA workshops are at the forefront of reformulating and removing AP from their recipes and a few have completely done so already.
As far as this being a witch-hunt, i respectfully disagree. There is a growing minority of vapers who are seriously concerned about this issue. The vendors who are facing a backlash ( like Suicide Bunny ) are the ones that flat out lied and very likely doctored their test. The majority of vendors were silent on the issue, but some just lied, and they deserve the backlash imo.
I don't mean to suggest that it isn't a legitimate concern when I imply this is a witch hunt - what I mean is, there are some people who are very much looking for something to be concerned about. It's a confirmation bias thing - people have a tendency to find exactly what they look for, if that makes any sense? It's obviously a legitimate concern - and as part of the community myself, I think it bears mention, consideration, and action!
I 100% agree that maintaining lung function should be a primary consideration - I know mine has dramatically increased since I started vaping. If anyone feels like they want to avoid diketones, we'll gladly consult on which liquid contain less of them. At this point I think there are many who believe (either rightly or wrongly) that their "quit" depends on liquids that are presently in excess of what NIOSH or Dr. F consider "tolerable" - and when those consequences are taken into consideration, I doubt one of them would object to any eliquid regardless of the diketone content (if, the alternative was smoking a traditional analog cigarette). I think the point they are making (thankfully, and rightfully so) is that responsible vendors reduce or eliminate constituent ingredients that give reason for pause, or, have the potential for malevolent effect. Even in the absence of evidence, it's a no brainer - minimize and reduce exposure in any and every way possible (if it matters to the end user). Surprisingly enough, many (even most?) vapers could care less - as long as it's not a cigarette, it's fair game. I'm not here to judge... I'm just here to provide top quality eLiquid consistently in a clean environment - and - do so with a level of transparency and integrity. I also view my role as somewhat of an educator since even if I reduce all the levels of the above to Non-detecteable levels - most vapers will still be vaping it whether they get it from me or not. Most vendors (90% or more) don't have the faintest idea what's actually in their own bottles. It's an education thing for me, also - I am constantly learning. I read quite a bit on the subject - I just haven't seen any compelling evidence that we should make any drastic changes.
Hey Clark. take your time and do what you feel is the right thing to do.
It seems like you've got a good plan in place to steer this tight ran ship to the right direction.
You wouldn't want to get caught in this witch hunt.
It seems like you've got a good plan in place to steer this tight ran ship to the right direction.
You wouldn't want to get caught in this witch hunt.
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Simple, but unfortunately not so common in this day and age.
Very true unfortunately.....maybe time for a radical change???
Recipes change, but the core values remain the same.
Exactly, I was saying maybe a change for other folks since NT is so unusual in doing the right thing, I think everyone should be so forthright!
It's funny i often hear some vapers say vaping is 99% safe without any documentation or studies (and it seems CASAA is adamant about this too). If you point to studies questioning the safety of some ingredients, "its much ado about nothing" . I am not saying this is your position mind you, i am characterizing some typical posts i read. All that is required to be labelled an ANTZ is to find something questionable about vaping, and then actually ask the question. Even Kristin, a vp at Casaa has actually made this argument. And to a degree I do understand this. Vapers have felt hounded and persecuted, and it has set them up into a very inflexible emotional state. And yes, i agree with you that a large percentage of vapers don't care and an even larger percentage don't even know what AP is.
Some of us however are already past the " it's safer than cigarettes " argument. We want our liquid to be as safe as possible.
I guess everyone has a different risk threshold. If you feel limits set by NIOSH, AEMSA, ECTA and Dr. Farsalinos are "unnecessarily low" , so be it. What i don't understand though is how you came to the decision to reformulate the two liquids with the highest AP numbers and not the one with the third highest number ? Why did you set your "limit" somewhere between Strawnilla and ACB ?
In the absence of what is considered conclusive proof ( which may be years away btw ) i chose to err on the side of caution. And i will adjust my position if and when newer studies refute the studies that point to the direction of potential risk. Disclaimer : i am not particularly a fan of custardy or buttery flavors, so the decision might be easier for me. If the only choice was between a vanilla custard made with AP and smoking, then i think the decision is obvious.
The most important thing though is that you are going to link the product description pages to the test numbers. As long as consumers are making an informed decision, they are free to set their risk threshold wherever they see fit.
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As someone whose "fresh" air is below health standards I agree. My GP says living in Denver equals a pack a day cigarette habit in lung damage.
I've missed you Bill!!!
I second this motion. Motion carries, Bill is awesome - and he likes bubblegum.
I want your liquid to be as safe as possible, too. I think this is one of the most insightful posts I have read in a long time.
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