Now is the Time To Act! I am Serious! **updated**

[Kate]

Trying to organise us is like trying to herd cats. Right to vape have tried and there is little visible support.

If traders had some organisation themselves it might generate more co-operation, consider working with Right to vape to help us to get organised too. Meanwhile, there are already numerous calls for US members to take action, sign petitions and send testimonials.

 

[applefr3ak]

Kate... What do you think the ECA is?? Just a random acronym??

Jason

 

[Kate]

Actually it is until you actually do something.

 

[applefr3ak]

ok, I will let Joanna or someone higher in the ECA decide what to say about it. Things are happening, we are starting to raise funds, we are getting the ball rolling.

 

[fatman]

I think it's more that they don't want to spend the money to take care of business.

Tests have been done in various countries and places that show the vapor to be relatively harmless - LOTS less harmful than tobacco smoke and with no known carcinogens - but those tests need to be conducted by agencies or individuals which are known to the FDA and carry some credibility. That's going to cost a few pennies and it seems the suppliers don't want to go out on a limb with the investment.

Instead, we're being asked to grab our torches and pitchforks.

I am not a supplier and have no dog in this fight, except a desire for easy access to the supplies I need to vape. The suppliers do not, in fact, have the responsibiity here. The manufactureres do. When Wyeth comes out with a new drug, Walgreens does not petition the FDA for approval to sell it, Wyeth does and Walgreens needs to adhere to certain rules set up by the FDA and the various states to allow them to sell the product. I have some experience with the approval process for medical devices and I assure you that your perspective is mistaken. The suppliers need to rally *political* pressure. They then need to engage either a domestic or oversea manufacturer to commit to the costs of approval in exchange for which they will commit to buying some minimum amount or to pay a license fee when approved, perhaps in advance - that's their skin in the game and it will amount to a great deal of money on their part. But the manufacturer has to take the lead with *regulatory* action rather than *political*.

I appreciate your perspective, but please understand that it is based on flawed assumptions. For now the suppliers have the same goals as the consumer. That will change when they need to start writing checks and protecting their investments. But as of now, they are also consumers purchasing at wholesale rates, nothing more.

 

[Kate]

That's good to hear Apple, I look forward to finding out what you achieve.

 

[Hangar]

Another point to make is that in order for consumers and politicians to publicly stand behind ecigs it would be wise for suppliers to get their web sites operating in a more legit fashion. Use real business addresses instead of PO Boxes and real customer support phone numbers instead of hiding behind just an email form...use your real names where possible, etc....make yourself accessible instead of hiding the way most of you are doing right now!

Make yourselves appear REAL and PROUD...instead of like your trying to ditch the law and the consumers.

I think TW has gone the right route as far as the way they label and package their liquids...this at least shows an ability to be able to self regulate, or at least starting onto the right path...the path of responsibility. Every supplier should also be listing the liquid manufacturers they are using. Its going to be difficult to get high level support for an industry that has so many cowboys and indians running rampant right now.

 

[B&BsMom]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this but Senator Coburn of Oklahoma is hosting a town hall meeting in Stillwater this evening to meet with constituents. Any Oklahomans in the area may be interested in attending. I will definitely try to make it up there if my schedule permits.

Info
Stillwater Town Hall Meeting
Friday, April 17, 2009
6:00 PM
Noble Research Center Auditorium
Oklahoma State University
Stillwater, OK 74078

 

[applefr3ak]

We are getting all the sites legit, removing all health claims etc Hangar, and Thanks fatman.. you are EXACTLY right. Oh, And Hangar, if you look at my site, My number is on there.. and heck even a cartoon picture of me.. Im not trying to ditch anything.. and.. You guys think us as suppliers arent stepping to the plate?! You have NO idea how much money the ECA is going to take to run every Month and to get started.. Its staggaring.. at least to me it is..

 

[Kate]

It sounds ambitious, good luck with it, I hope the results make it worthwhile.

 

[applefr3ak]

Well so do all of us trying to get this running.. Its a lot more work than anyone really seems to think..

 

[TropicalBob]

Yes ... good luck. For 16 months, this board has contained every realistic thing manufacturers should have done. Most didn't. Now, ignorance is not an acceptable excuse. They knew. They ignored what needed to be done.

We're now sitting in the grandstand after the Homecoming game, refusing to look at the scoreboard, looking downcast at a darkened field and reflecting back on the fumble, the missed opportunity, the refusal to abide by the rules while roundly criticizing the referees in vicious rants. The whole game played out here.

Sadly for us, the team captains failed us.

Only tomorrow's headlines remain to be read.

 

[OutWest]

That's good to hear Apple, I look forward to finding out what you achieve.

likewise

Not sure if this is the right place to post this but Senator Coburn of Oklahoma is hosting a town hall meeting in Stillwater this evening to meet with constituents. Any Oklahomans in the area may be interested in attending. I will definitely try to make it up there if my schedule permits.

Info
Stillwater Town Hall Meeting
Friday, April 17, 2009
6:00 PM
Noble Research Center Auditorium
Oklahoma State University
Stillwater, OK 74078

Thanks for posting this! Will try to attend myself. I just snail mailed my letter to him (addressed to his house address). If I can make it out there I'll take a printout of it with me to hand-deliver if given the opportunity.

For those unfamiliar with it, the Noble Research Center is in the International Mall portion of the OSU campus and is north of the library. A map can be found at http://gradcollege.okstate.edu/download/pdf/ParkingMap.pdf On the map, it's just left of the large construction zone by the stadium.

 

[Hangar]

what i cant understand about all this is why havent any major U.S. manufacturers tried to get FDA approval on this yet?...what is stopping them?...why isnt anyone interested?...and why isnt Big Tobacco trying to monopoly the situation...id think instead of outlawing it theyd prefer if losing a smoker, to lose a smoker to an ecig which they manufacture. They look good by providing a way to quit and they make money for smokers who are quitting due to high taxes and health issues.

Yet ive heard of no major U.S. manufacturing interest...im dumbfounded!

 

[Kate]

The only US manufacturer I know of is Johnson Creek. Why don't you ask them what they're doing?

 

[Hangar]

i seriously doubt they're truly manufacturing...concocting is more likely id say. But they are hiding behind a curtain from what i understand and refuse to divulge what they are really doing over there with our drug.

 

[Kate]

... I wouldn't be surprised.

Still it might be worth seeing what they say about them getting approval for their product.

 

[skex]

To many of the criticism lets take a little look at reality.

This is politics in politics it's all about posiitoning and message.

Yes ideally we'd like to have this product legitimately regulated by the government in a reasonable manner.

However experience has shown us that this is seldom the case.

Now I'm no anti-regulation libertarian I'm a leftist who definitely believes that it is governments job to protect the powerless from the powerful.

But understand this there are only two reasons that regulations exist. The first and most common is to protect existing interests from competition. The majority of regulation in existence exists specifically to errect barriers to entry against competition. This is what the regulation currently being considered by the FDA regarding Electronic Cigarettes is about.

The second reason for regulation is to address abuses by bussinesses. In almost every case these have come into existence because the industry in question was unable to or more often unwilling to self regulate.

A smart industry will self police and self regulate if they do so they can avoid the second kind of regulation.

Now on strategy. I understand entirely that the ECA is not going to disclose all their plans it would be stupid to do so. If you are going into battle you don't publish your battle plans on the world wide web. A football team does not send their playbook to the competition right before a game.

As to why to try to avoid regulation entirely well there are several reasons. Primarily to try and avoid the first reason I mentioned for regulation if E-cigs get pulled into the orbit of the FDA as a drug then such regulation will primarily be shaped by it's enemies influences. Big Tobacco and Big Pharma have already showed just how commited they are to squashing this product and they at this point have much more influence (read money) that E-cigs.

Also politics is about compromise. It's a negotiation. Consider if you are trying to buy a car you don't start out by offering the most you are willing to pay you start by offering less than you think the other party is willing to accept as a starting point for negotiations.

A temporary repreive while E-cigs go through proper testing and certification may be the most reasonable solution however if one starts at that point the opposition is going to try and pull things to less reasonable standards. If you start at the other extreme you look more like your being cooperative as you give up things that you don't really care about. Then as you are giving ground and the opposition isn't you look reasonable and they look unreasonable.

Something to understand about E-Cig's is this. If this action had been delayed another year the genie would probably have been out of the bottle. E-Cigs are just begining to take off in the U.S which I suspect is a large part of the reason that the regulatory pressure has come to a head today. The other players in this battle have figured out that if they don't nip this in the bud today then next year the product will have gained so much acceptance that they will have lost their window of opportunity.

If official action can be delayed long enough for the product to gain mass acceptance then the war is won.

So the current objective is to delay the regulatory hammer long enough for the product to become mainstream it is unfortunant that the suppliers have delayed taking action so long I saw the need for such actions when I started 2 months ago and many of these individuals have been involved in this for a year or more. Still better late than never.

Understand this is not just about our individual ability to continue to vape. We will still be able to gain access to the supplies and the product from overseas for the foreseable future.

However if the regulatory hammer falls on the E-cig then thousands if not millions of our fellow smokers will never have a chance to move to a less harmful source for their nicotine and will be condemned to all the negative consequnces of smoking in a world that increasing views them with disdain.

So be clear what's going on here. While we may not as individuals agree with every action being taken by the association that is not a reason to avoid working with them. That's politics you will seldom if ever find another person who agrees with you on every point of ideology.
From my reading here I am quite certain that many of the individuals with whom I share common cause on this issue would vehemently disagree with me on other points of politics.

Yet here we have common cause. From those of us who completely believe that the government has an obligation to protect it's citizenry to those who think government should be small enough to drown in a bathtub.

Hell this is as bipartisan an issue as exists. It doesn't matter if you are a Republican, Democrat, Socialist, Anarchist or a libertarian we are all nicotine addicts joined in common cause. Whether we believe this product should be available through pure belief in individual freedom or just a desire to make life a little more pleasant for those around us and save the lives of a few of our fellow smokers.

I suggest in addition to writting letters people need to hit up their political blogs as well. Lefties go hit Dailykos and mydd righties go to redstate and what ever other rightwing blogs you know about and bring this issue up.

I've already posted one Diary on Dailykos about E-cigarettes about a month ago and if I can find time I'll get another. Association people if you can get me any information you want out I can post up a diary. Another thing is any lefty or Democratic vapers should get accounts over there so we can get our info up on the rec lists to get visability.

I had gotten very positive responce from my previous dailykos diary so there are plenty of people on the left who think this option should remain available. This from a site that so many on the right are convinced is dedicated to creating a socialist paradise here in the U.S. Trust me people on the left has as little trust for the FDA and Big Pharma and Tobacco as the right has for Obama's budget (probably less actionally)

But this is not the time to get stuck on the details. It's time to fight the delaying action and that's going to require a united front because our enemies are powerful and well funded.

Our suppliers are the only viable option for focusing our efforts they are the ones who have the money to be able to fund this. This is why I've resisted the tempation to start sourcing from China directly myself.

As Benjamin Franklen famously said "We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately."

 

[Lika]

I am looking forward to reviewing the statement to be issued today by the ECA. If you post it in its own thread please provide a link to it from this one. Thank you for listening...

 

[OutWest]

ARGH!! Dr. Coburn has been having town hall meetings all across the state for a few days now (and some were within 45 min drive from my house!) Why oh why hasnt the news mentioned this? *banging head against wall*
.: United States Senator Tom Coburn :: Press Room :.