NY Senate Health Cmte Hearing on Clean Indoor Air Act

[Bill Godshall]

On September 23, 2010, the NY Senate Health Committee held a public hearing on the NY Clean Indoor Air Act and tobacco/smoking related legislation (including legislation to ban the sale of e-cigarettes and legislation to ban the sale of e-cigarettes to youth).

The hearing was posted in three sections on You Tube (below). Testifiers who presented on (or responded to questions about) e-cigarettes included Thomas Farley, Frank Dowling, Michael Caldwell, Julianne Hart, Suzanne Steinbaum, Michele Bonan, Spike Babaian, William Friedman (sp), Bill Godshall and Ron Ward.

NY Senate Health Committee -Clean Indoor Air Act Impact Forum Senator Tom Duane Sept. 23 2010
Introductions, Thomas Farley - NYC Health Commissioner, NY State Senator Toby Staviski, Jeffrey Willett - NY Health Dept tobacco Control Program, Mike Cummings - Rosswell Park Cancer Center, Frank Dowling - NY Medical Society, Michael Caldwell - NY Association of County Health Officials.
YouTube - nysenateuncut's Channel

NY Senate Health Committee -Clean Indoor Air Act Impact Forum Pt. 2 Senator Tom Duane Sept. 23 2010
Joanne Koldare - NYC Coalition for a Smoke-Free City, Russ Sciandra - Center for a Tobacco Free New York, Christie Ewen, Audrey Silk & Barbara Fischer - NYC CLASH, Stephen Helfer, Julianne Hart & Suzanne Steinbaum - American Heart Association, Michael Seilback - American Lung Association of NY, Michele Bonan - American Cancer Society
YouTube - nysenateuncut's Channel

NY Senate Health Committee -Clean Indoor Air Act Impact Forum Pt. 3 Senator Tom Duane Sept. 23 2010
Spike Babaian - National Vapers Club, William Friedman - Vapers Forum, Bill Godshall - Smokefree Pennsylvania, Ron Ward - Consumer Advocates for Smokefree Alternatives Association, Ron Malendi & David Schwartz - NY Tobacconist Association, Mr. Waller
YouTube - nysenateuncut's Channel

 

[t9c]

Interesting (and aggravating) that Tom Duane kept hammering on the panel, post speeches, about sales to & use by minors in which every one of the advocates denounced the use of e-cigarettes by those under 18 and in fact stated multiple times each they (we) support a ban on sales or use to/by minors. Maybe the word I'm looking is incredulous. I could hear the utter dismay of the panel in their attempts to reply when the HC member asked "How do you know that minors aren't using these?" And further, "OK, we obviously need more studies."

Thank you Bill and all these rest of you who testified. I may be biased, but you all put on a very convincing argument against the ban. Any logical person could understand the obvious implications of harm reduction due to the use of e-cigs, but then the Hon. Senator present did not seem to exactly represent much in the way of logic. Hopefully he will.

 

[DC2]

Interesting (and aggravating) that Tom Duane kept hammering on the panel, post speeches, about sales to & use by minors in which every one of the advocates denounced the use of e-cigarettes by those under 18 and in fact stated multiple times each they (we) support a ban on sales or use to/by minors. Maybe the word I'm looking is incredulous. I could hear the utter dismay of the panel in their attempts to reply when the HC member asked "How do you know that minors aren't using these?" And further, "OK, we obviously need more studies."

Thank you Bill and all these rest of you who testified. I may be biased, but you all put on a very convincing argument against the ban. Any logical person could understand the obvious implications of harm reduction due to the use of e-cigs, but then the Hon. Senator present did not seem to exactly represent much in the way of logic. Hopefully he will.

The Senator kept talking about how expensive they seem to be.
I don't think that was ever successfully explained to him.

But I wonder why he kept harping on that?
Maybe he wants to buy one for someone he knows?
Maybe he smokes himself?

Unless, maybe, just maybe, he was looking to convince himself that minors would it find too expensive.
It don't know, it was very strange.

In the future, I think it might be helpful to emphasize the impracticality of electronic cigarettes for anyone that doesn't already smoke.
The battery charging, the buying of new parts all the time, how does a minor hide all that from parents?

The idea that minors will gravitate towards electronic cigarettes is so absurd to me that I could spit.

 

[BigJimW]

Everything went great until I saw this exchange

YouTube - "Next Victim" The Electronic Cigarette War - Dumwaldo gets blown off by Senator Duane of NY

Stop me if I am wrong here, and please, STOP ME IF I AM WRONG and I'll pull the video, but it is obvious that Duane totally blew off Dumwaldo (Friendman) and was more interested in his comfort rather than the issue at hand. Don't get me wrong, I think you ALL did a great job! My hats off to you! But from my impression, from seeing this, it fell on deaf ears.

 

[BCB]

No, don't pull the video. You have a pretty accurate assessment of the situation.

 

[Bustastew]

Oh man that video ...... me the .... off!

 

[Liv2Ski]

Welcome to NY! Where disfunction Junction is the political game in this state. I would expect nothing less from my home state to be one of the first to implement a ban. Hell we were the first to bring you the Rockefeller drug laws, seatbelt law, hands free cellphone law, Banned smoking in bars, and $>10 pack smokes. Our state gov't is a joke. They can protect New Yorker's from themselves but can't pass a budget on time! Thanks for fighting the battle. A lot at stake here since other states follow like lemmings.

 

[Luisa]

The Senator kept talking about how expensive they seem to be.
I don't think that was ever successfully explained to him.

But I wonder why he kept harping on that?
Maybe he wants to buy one for someone he knows?
Maybe he smokes himself?

Unless, maybe, just maybe, he was looking to convince himself that minors would it find too expensive.
It don't know, it was very strange.

In the future, I think it might be helpful to emphasize the impracticality of electronic cigarettes for anyone that doesn't already smoke.
The battery charging, the buying of new parts all the time, how does a minor hide all that from parents?

The idea that minors will gravitate towards electronic cigarettes is so absurd to me that I could spit.

EXACTLY! I have to enter 10 words so this will post--

 

[Luisa]

Thank you very much,Bill. You are a great friend to all of us.

 

[ckc]

When he went on about the cost of these being expensive again and again i believe he thought that you would have to buy a complete new E-Cig every time you wanted a vape session. He just didn't get how they worked,i don't think he knew they could be re-filled and charged....simples.

 

[(So) Jersey Girl]

Politicians who can't handle the heat should get out of the House (and Senate, and Assembly). Heck, they should just go and get themselves REAL jobs!

 

[Our House]

Maybe I'm the only one who thought this went really well overall, not just from our side. We all know that the speakers did an awesome job...they truly did! The Senator on the other hand, attempted to attack ecigs. He asked the questions that he thought he was supposed to ask, but then shortly realized that his questions were contradicting each other and not making any sense in the area of public health. So then (instead of choosing to backpeddle and dig the hole deeper) he decided to concede by blaming the loss of AC / temperature of the room for his crankiness and inability to concentrate.

In other words, I believe the panelists had an impact.

 

[Shad0w]

James, while the Senator was definitely being short at that point (end of a long day coupled with discomfort),
he was by no means as completely rude and unsympathetic as you would make him out to be in that video.
He did (for the most part) listen attentively to all the various presenters, and did actually care enough to ask questions.
This would infer that he was open to the possibility that these may be an alternative.

To pick and choose the sections you did and present them in such a fashion is disingenuous,
and seems to cater to those among us who would prefer to remain ignorant of the full course of events.

To all that are genuinely interested in these proceedings: Please watch the entire proceedings at your leisure.
It need not be all at once, but if you want a factual account of what went on, you should.

I am all for "Rallying the Troops" but you have to pick your battles wisely.
There were many others who were outright preaching falsehood at the session today.
Lambasting them would have been at least more entertaining.

 

[Cit-e Steamer]

Everything went great until I saw this exchange

YouTube - "Next Victim" The Electronic Cigarette War - Dumwaldo gets blown off by Senator Duane of NY

Stop me if I am wrong here, and please, STOP ME IF I AM WRONG and I'll pull the video, but it is obvious that Duane totally blew off Dumwaldo (Friendman) and was more interested in his comfort rather than the issue at hand. Don't get me wrong, I think you ALL did a great job! My hats off to you! But from my impression, from seeing this, it fell on deaf ears.

That statement was obviously a veiled attack on Bill Friedman and not an obvious assessment of Senator Duane's intent. I was there and do not agree with your assessment. IMHO, you veiled the whole thing in compliments in order to hide your true intent. I think you took an insignificant sound-byte to discredit someone you dislike. It is no secret that you have an axe to grind with Dumwaldo as he represents something that you hate.

Although I personally appreciate the compliment on a job well done, I seriously question your motivation in posting that video. You found a collateral negative segment of the overall testimony and publicized it. If you really wanted to help the cause, why didn't you post highlights of the testimony? That type of sucker-punching, cowardly and juvenile act only serves to hurt the cause.

Personally, I obviously do not condone BigJim's actions on this thread. And, although BigJim lists himself a a CASAA regional representative; he does NOT officially speak for CASAA.

Actually, BigJim recently showed his true colors when he stated publicly that he was no longer an e-cig activist and made the statement "go get 'em FDA". From these statements and previous statements as well, I surmise that BigJim's motivation is to promote his own celebrity status (if you could even call it that) and not to preserve our continued right to vape.

You should be ashamed of yourself BigJim and your opinions mean less than nothing to me.

 

[kristin]

Ron, are we talking about the same video? I don't see where Dumwaldo (Bill Friedman) was attacked in Jim's video, but I felt he was attacked by the senator. I watched this live and I felt the same way about this exchange as I watched - that Senator Duane was trying to imply something lurid about Dumwaldo like he's hanging out with a younger crowd or a pedophile or something because he was in malls for hours and then cutting him off and not letting him explain further. He asked for proof that kids weren't buying these and then cut him off with an insulting implication. I was disgusted.

I don't know Jim's motivations for focusing on this particular moment, but I have to agree with him that Senator Duane was out of line and insulting Dumwaldo with his comments.

 

[JustJulie]

I watched the entire proceeding. I think Senator Duane's point, which I personally understand, is that Dumwaldo probably isn't in a position to talk about whether children are using e-cigs because Dumwaldo doesn't hang around children . . . and if he did, well, that would be weird. In Senator Duane's mind, children using these are hanging out in teen areas with their friends, so I think his real point was that Dumwaldo isn't going to see children using e-cigs in those venues.

So, yes, I think Senator Duane was rude. But I also think he was hot, tired, and cranky. It was a long day with very short breaks, and he was the only member of the Committee who cared enough to stay for the entire proceeding.

Personally, I wasn't disgusted with Senator Duane. While I obviously don't share his point of view on many issues, I do think that he was asking questions. I think he is confused as to what e-cigs are designed to do. He sees them as smoking cessation devices, not as long-term replacements for combustible tobacco cigarettes. We need to help him understand that these aren't for people to quit smoking . . . they're for people to continue to use nicotine in a fashion that mimics the act of smoking closely enough to satisfy many smokers . . . but without the smoke.

So long as Senator Duane thinks of these as smoking cessation devices, he's not going to get it. I think rather than slamming Senator Duane, we ought to do our best to help him get it . . . and not confuse the issue by talking about, for example, providing e-cigarettes to Quit Smoking Hotlines. Most people get confused when we talk about quitting smoking, because in their minds, that means giving up nicotine as well.

As for BJW's video, I thought it was sensationalist and more than a bit misleading. Whatever.

 

[t9c]

I watched the entire proceeding. I think Senator Duane's point, which I personally understand, is that Dumwaldo probably isn't in a position to talk about whether children are using e-cigs because Dumwaldo doesn't hang around children . . . and if he did, well, that would be weird. In Senator Duane's mind, children using these are hanging out in teen areas with their friends, so I think his real point was that Dumwaldo isn't going to see children using e-cigs in those venues.

So, yes, I think Senator Duane was rude. But I also think he was hot, tired, and cranky. It was a long day with very short breaks, and he was the only member of the Committee who cared enough to stay for the entire proceeding.

Personally, I wasn't disgusted with Senator Duane. While I obviously don't share his point of view on many issues, I do think that he was asking questions. I think he is confused as to what e-cigs are designed to do. He sees them as smoking cessation devices, not as long-term replacements for combustible tobacco cigarettes. We need to help him understand that these aren't for people to quit smoking . . . they're for people to continue to use nicotine in a fashion that mimics the act of smoking closely enough to satisfy many smokers . . . but without the smoke.

So long as Senator Duane thinks of these as smoking cessation devices, he's not going to get it. I think rather than slamming Senator Duane, we ought to do our best to help him get it . . . and not confuse the issue by talking about, for example, providing e-cigarettes to Quit Smoking Hotlines. Most people get confused when we talk about quitting smoking, because in their minds, that means giving up nicotine as well.

As for BJW's video, I thought it was sensationalist and more than a bit misleading. Whatever.

Perhaps just as well that Duane understands teen behavior mimics adult behavior.

 

[Bill Godshall]

Individually and as a panel, Spike, dumwaldo (Bill), Ron and I did extremely well, and I believe well enough to dissuade Sen. Duane from supporting legislation that would ban e-cigarette sales to adults (and hopefully from having the Health Cmte consider it if Duane retains chairmanship next session).

But we need to continue communicating our concerns to Duane and other NY Senators, and next session we need to proactively urge all NY Senators and Assembly members to support/enact legislation to ban e-cigarette sales to minors (as a good offense on youth sales ban is also the best defense to prevent the enactment of an e-cigarette sales ban to adults).

Sen. Duane had a spotlight shining in his eyes all day, the AC shut down before our panel spoke (making it hot and stuffy during our presentations), and Duane had a long day running the committee hearing (as the three other Senators who were there at the beginning left after the first, second and third testifiers presented). I think Duane gets it now, but he was just doing his job of playing devil's advocate in challenging some of our statements (especially since we exposed and criticized claims made about e-cigarettes by previous testifiers that Duane had mistakenly believed were telling him the truth).

Regarding Jim's video, I can think of several hundred other one-minute segments from the hearing that are more important and relevant than the one chosen by Jim, and I can think of hundreds of other words and phrases that far better describe that unimportant and irrelevant segment than the one's chosen by Jim.

 

[kristin]

Personally, I wasn't disgusted with Senator Duane....

As for BJW's video, I thought it was sensationalist and more than a bit misleading. Whatever.

Individually and as a panel, Spike, dumwaldo (Bill), Ron and I did extremely well, and I believe well enough to dissuade Sen. Duane from supporting legislation that would ban e-cigarette sales to adults (and hopefully from having the Health Cmte consider it if Duane retains chairmanship next session).

But we need to continue communicating our concerns to Duane and other NY Senators, and next session we need to proactively urge all NY Senators and Assembly members to support/enact legislation to ban e-cigarette sales to minors (as a good offense on youth sales ban is also the best defense to prevent the enactment of an e-cigarette sales ban to adults).

Sen. Duane had a spotlight shining in his eyes all day, the AC shut down before our panel spoke (making it hot and stuffy during our presentations), and Duane had a long day running the committee hearing (as the three other Senators who were there at the beginning left after the first, second and third testifiers presented). I think Duane gets it now, but he was just doing his job of playing devil's advocate in challenging some of our statements (especially since we exposed and criticized claims made about e-cigarettes by previous testifiers that Duane had mistakenly believed were telling him the truth).

Regarding Jim's video, I can think of several hundred other one-minute segments from the hearing that are more important and relevant than the one chosen by Jim, and I can think of hundreds of other words and phrases that far better describe that unimportant and irrelevant segment than the one's chosen by Jim.

I think the panel did very well, too! And I agree that with all of the moments in the videos, Jim's highlight choice is sensationalist and I suppose suspect, considering his relationship with Dumwaldo. I wasn't arguing that - just that I agreed that I felt Dumwaldo was mistreated in that instance.

I wasn't disgusted with everything Senator Duane said/did, but I was with that particular moment. For all Senator Duane knows, Dumwaldo works in a store in the mall, so those particular comments did seem rude, especially when he didn't give him an opportunity to elaborate. Plus he wouldn't listen to the rationale that if e-cig advocates can't prove that kids AREN'T using e-cigs, then how can the antis prove that they ARE? It just made me wonder about his overall acceptance of what he was being told by the panel. I hope Bill is right in his assessment of the proceeding is correct. Did Duane speak with anyone after the proceedings and indicate that he now understands that the previous panel wasn't telling the truth? I didn't get that from watching the proceedings. He ended with the same anti lines - we don't know and we need more research.

It bothers me that the AC just happened to be turned off at that particular time and that the other senators only stayed long enough to hear the anti's testimony, too.

 

[PlanetScribbles]

What I took from the session was that the Senator was way too concerned with the cost of the e-cig and not familiar enough with how they work.
Just because a kit costs $50 doesn't equate to how much a pack of 20 Marlboro costs, nor does it equate with how much nicotine is ingested.
If you are going to make that comparison, you may as well make the same comparison to the high cost of nicotine patches. A pack of 10 high strength patches delivers the same amount of nicotine as 20 Marlboro but costs at least twice the price. A patch is a one time use product but a pack would last ten days instead of one, just as the e-cig has a longer lifespan of weeks/months for attys and batteries respectively.
He was comparing apples and tomatoes as the same because both are 'fruit', which is pretty short-sighted really. He was asking for proof that minors do not use e-cigs also, which is asking for proof of a negative. That is a loaded requirement, and not achievable. Again, if you are asking that, why not also ask whether minors use tobacco products. They do, that is a fact. Everyone knows it. So why the unfair requirement for e-cigs to achieve something that tobacco does not achieve ie. abstinence of minors. Why not just see the light and admit that doing little to no harm to one's self is a lot better than doing lots of harm?
It's wrong that some people are crack addicts, but it would be a whole lot better if they switched to something less harmful. You certainly wouldn't require an addict to either go cold turkey or stay on the crack, rather than switch to a less harmful alternative, surely?? Any politician who would, would rightly be labelled as much a menace to society as the addict they are preaching to.
The Senator was far too willing to be evasive to the logic, instead seemingly choosing to be argumentative and manufacturing problems where no problem exists.