Ok is it just me or do E-Liquid manufacturers need to do their part?

[cainne]

I've noticed a trend in a few different bottles of e-liquid (hereafter referred to as "EL") I've purchased from various companies; poor labeling.

I know we are all against, to varying degrees, the efforts to ban ecigs but I think we have to be adult enough to realize that some of that liability lies with us and what companies we support.

To be frank I think the FDA SHOULD regulate EL sales. Right now it's a bit too open out there. Anybody can mix some fluid out of their home with no quality assurance, safeguards, etc and sell it online. People could be getting anything in their fluid. This is the appropriate role I believe the FDA should play. Not banning ecigs but simply providing regulatory mandates and licensing for who can sell EL and what can be put in it.

EL mimics food and pharmaceuticals in that you are taking them into your system. What other food or drugs do you regularly ingest that do NOT have fully transparent labeling of the contents?

If we want to show that we are handling this responsibly I think we really need to push EL manufacturers to list ALL ingredients, including flavorings, on the label, include a proper nicotine/poison warning, and batch number all products so in the event that there IS an issue with a particular batch purchasers can be properly notified and a batch recalled.

I include flavorings because people do have food allergies and in many cases it may not be as simple as "don't buy X flavor if you're allergic to X food". What about the person that's allergic to pineapple and buys "fruit sorbet" flavor without knowing there is natural pineapple flavoring in it and have a serious allergic reaction?

Is that very likely? No, probably not. Is it possible, especially as vaping gets more and more popular and the volume of people engaging in it increases? I think it's worthy of consideration.

Many manufacturers, especially smaller ones that "home brew" to an extent may not want to do this in an effort to preserve their "secret sauce" recipes for particular flavor combinations but I think we should encourage it by deciding who gets our EL dollars. Let's be realistic, every food manufacturer out there has to do this and it's not considered an undue burden. It's not as if most people are trying to whip up "Famous Amos" cookies home from the ingredient list instead of buying them. It's just the standard. Why would EL suppliers expect get a pass on such a basic health and safety issue?

I think if this was pushed to be accepted as the "minimum standard" in EL sales it would also go a LONG way to boosting the credibility of vaping.

Thoughts?

 

[keveck]

I know we are all against, to varying degrees, the efforts to ban ecigs but I think we have to be adult enough to realize that some of that liability lies with us and what companies we support.

Yes, the liability should lie with us. We don't need mommy government telling us what we can and cannot do with these. And you hit the nail on the head - If you don't like what a company is doing, don't support them. Easy as that.

To be frank I think the FDA SHOULD regulate EL sales. Right now it's a bit too open out there.

Regulation is about the only happy middle ground that might happen with e-cigs. Open is nice though, there are MANY vendors of juice now to choose from.

Anybody can mix some fluid out of their home with no quality assurance, safeguards, etc and sell it online.

Another nice thing. I can make this at home. I would know exactly what went in it. And yes, anyone could sell it online...but would you really buy from someone like that if you were concerned about quality? I'm pretty sure that dekang has some decent quality control, actually. I'm sure a lot of the mixing is automated as well.

EL mimics food and pharmaceuticals in that you are taking them into your system. What other food or drugs do you regularly ingest that do NOT have fully transparent labeling of the contents?

Just about every single food item ever. Go pick an item out of your fridge or cabinet or whatever. About 95% of everything in there has "natural or artificial flavors" in the ingredients list. This is not transparent at all. It relates heavily to juice as well. Most manufactures do indeed show the basic ingredients to their juice (usually on the manufacturer's website or juice label) . Propylene Glycol (PG), Vegetable Glycerin (VG), Ethyl Maltol (sweetener), Nicotine (self-explanatory), Natural and Artificial flavors (just like food products) and then there's things like linalool and various other things. None of the ingredients are secret, except for the flavorings...just like food products. VaporStation is the only manufacturer I have seen that puts a FULL ingredient list on their bottles. They list EVERYTHING.

include a proper nicotine/poison warning, and batch number all products so in the event that there IS an issue with a particular batch purchasers can be properly notified and a batch recalled.

Tastyvapor.us and VaporStation both include large nicotine/poison warnings(as well as an ingredients list) on their bottles. E-juice is usually made in small batches or custom made as well (except for dekang) so putting a batch number on wouldn't be much help, and would be a huge hassle to maintain records on thousands of custom orders.

I include flavorings because people do have food allergies and in many cases it may not be as simple as "don't buy X flavor if you're allergic to X food". What about the person that's allergic to pineapple and buys "fruit sorbet" flavor without knowing there is natural pineapple flavoring in it and have a serious allergic reaction?

Again, I'll point to the fact that almost all food products contain natural and artificial flavorings and have never been required to label their flavorings. This would be more of an issue with US regulations on food products in general. I'm sure that the people with these allergies have an idea of what to stay away from. Also, I would think that there would be an immediate reaction to your throat when inhaled if you were allergic. Probably not enough flavoring to be lethal (even though anyone with severe food allergies would carry around an epipen or other emergency antihistamine), but enough to let you know that you should stop.

Is that very likely? No, probably not. Is it possible, especially as vaping gets more and more popular and the volume of people engaging in it increases? I think it's worthy of consideration.

Again, VaporStation. Full ingredient list.

Many manufacturers, especially smaller ones that "home brew" to an extent may not want to do this in an effort to preserve their "secret sauce" recipes for particular flavor combinations...

Absolutely. Wouldn't you want to protect your hard earned flavor? Many manufacturers have chemists that create these flavors. Say, for example, that the formula for halo's liquids got out. It's currently like $26 for 30mL (something around that number, I can't remember exactly). If someone found out how to make the flavor, they could sell it for half that price. Halo would go out of business.

Let's be realistic, every food manufacturer out there has to do this and it's not considered an undue burden. It's not as if most people are trying to whip up "Famous Amos" cookies home from the ingredient list instead of buying them. It's just the standard. Why would EL suppliers expect get a pass on such a basic health and safety issue?

THIS IS WHAT MADE ME REPLY.
THIS STATEMENT IS HORRIBLY FALSE.
Back to the natural and artificial flavorings. Famous Amos cookies are a bad example of this. Everyone knows what is in a cookie.

Compare this to something like Coca-Cola. If you really knew the full ingredients list to this, you'd be a millionaire. There's a reason it's a "secret formula". There are more than likely hundreds of flavorings in this. Can you name one of them?
Food manufactures do NOT have to list flavorings in products. There are some that do, but most DO NOT. There is NO law against this. It is NOT the standard.

I apologize in advance if this comes off as rude. I have no intention of starting any arguments or disputes.

Long story short, I do know of one manufacturer who does comply with all of your requests except for the batch code thing(which they might even do that, I'm not sure) and that's vaporstation.

 

[JerryRM]

Buy your e-juice from a dealer, who is a member of this forum. If someone here sold bad e-juice, the word would spread around the forum very quickly and they would soon be out of business.

"FDA approved" doesn't mean anything to me. Look at the side effects of some of the prescription medicines that they have approved, Prozac and Chantix to name a couple, potentially very dangerous.

Besides, we smoked cigarettes !! Can anything in e-juice be worse than the ingredients in those cancer sticks ?

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[tiburonfirst]

"FDA approved" doesn't mean anything to me. Look at the side effects of some of the prescription medicines that they have approved, Prozac and Chantix to name a couple, potentially very dangerous.

very true, jerry, and i have had firsthand experience with chantix

Besides, we smoked cigarettes !! Can anything in e-juice be worse than the ingredients in those cancer sticks ?

this we don't know, and yes, i think worse things are possible but not likely. for myself, i would prefer a little better quality control

Just my 2 cents worth.

so now we have 4 cents, getting up in the world, lol!

 

[cainne]

Could there be worse things than in cigarettes? Yes,without a doubt there could.

"Not a cigarette" isn't a carte blanche synonym for "healthy".

Let me be clear, do I think MOST ELIQUIDS sold are safer than cigarettes? Yes, by miles. However I think in our zeal to defend that some common sense restrictions get overlooked. People like making money. If an industry doesn't regulate itself people will begin taking advantage of that fact and all you need is one bad apple to create a VERY bad PR situation. That's why we unfortunately have to have a degree of regulation in the first place in most areas of commerce. If an industry doesn't police itself it's just all the more likely a state or federal agency WILL.

Also imagine an interview on the news.
"Where do you get your smoking device from?" "X manufacturer"
"How does it work?" "explanation"
"What's in it?" "explanation"
"Why do you feel it's safer than cigarettes?" "explanation"
"Wow! That sounds GREAT!!! What quality controls are there? How do you know what's being put in the fluid?" "Um,... Bob online that I bought it from said he didn't put anything bad in when he mixed it up in a bucket in his living room."


Do YOU think Bob has a good rep? Sure. But that doesn't hold up well under public scrutiny when they are unfamiliar with Bob. Public perception matters if you want to fight bans and prove "we're taking all the necessary precautions, you don't need to it's already being done."

As far as the "Open is nice"... yes, it is. For convenience and price. It's not for safety. It's also one of the biggest holes in the "ecigs are much healthier" argument. Unless you can prove via safety control standards that what you THINK is in the fluid IS what is in the fluid that argument goes out the window.

As for "You could replicate X companies recipe if you knew what was in it" no, you couldn't. Ingredients are typically listed by weight, knowing WHAT is in something doesn't mean you know how much and in what proportion. I don't think it's very hard to guess what flavorings are used in, say, strawberry cheesecake. Yes there could be something surprising like "a bit of vanilla" in there but I'm pretty sure with lorann's flavorings I could get pretty close starting with cheesecake and strawberry flavors. People that want to DYI will, and probably already are. I don't want to deal with the headache/mess. If we're honest I think that plays the majority role in people deciding whether to purchase or mix themselves; not whether vanilla is a secret ingredient in X flavor and it's a bit off without it so they purchase from x company instead of trying to make it themselves.

There are ingredients that are mandated to be listed SPECIFICALLY by the FDA for very good reason, they make up the most common allergens.

VI. Ingredient Lists

Obviously "Shellfish" probably wouldn't come up often (Gah... lobster and butter flavored fluid? Pass), but others might. Especially things like tree nuts, peanuts, and milk (if any of the compounds in milk that cause allergic responses are used in, say, cream base flavors). How can you defend NOT listings these on fuild that uses them? If it's an artificial flavor, fine. I'm not saying everything "pecan" flavored uses actual pecan oil or an extract, but if it DOES why should that not be clearly labeled?

I just think we need to wake up a little bit here.
How long do you think anybody slapping something in a bottle with no outside limitations or even guidance on quality control or allergen disclosure at the minimum is going to last?
Do you really think it HELPS the ecig case when bans are being discussed?
Can't we agree that "Bob with no experience or safety precautions mixing up a batch of tobacco flavor in his basement and guessing at nicotine percentages, etc" is going to be a great negative PR example that will be used to push further regulation or even banning ? Why give them that type of ammo?
Try to look at it from the perspective of a body already suspicious of ecigs or the average uninformed consumer. Not anyone with a premeditated motivation to ban them, but say a neutral congressman or woman or mayor who actually is willing to consider both sides. Without an argument against it such as: "We as a group of consumers/manufacturers have put in place minimum safety requirements vendors are required to use for labeling/production purposes when making/selling eliquid and only encourage the sale of liquid that properly complies... etc" I don't see how the pro-ecig group has a leg to stand on when the dangerous part is what you're inhaling and that's currently completely run like the wild-west with only "good" or "bad" reputations to have any sway in it. The less you regulate yourself the greater the push will be for others to step in and do so.

I know this isn't a popular position but just for a minute try looking at it from the other side.

 

[JerryRM]

I agree with listing ingredients on the label and industry self-regulation. However, I am very wary of government regulation of electronic cigarettes. I would prefer that they not come under the control of the FDA.

 

[Janetda]

I don't think there's an alternative Jerry. Either way the case goes, e-cigs will fall under the FDA.

 

[JerryRM]

I don't think there's an alternative Jerry. Either way the case goes, e-cigs will fall under the FDA.

I know Janet, but I don't like it.

 

[telsie]

The whole reason I started buying my liquid from Johnson Creek is because they seem to be doing everything that would be required of them if e-liquids were being regulated. I like their liquid, but what drew me to them initially was confidence in the brand.

They're registered with the FDA as a manufacturer of products for human consumption, their liquid is made entirely by them (it's not just an imported unflavored e-liquid that they add flavoring to) and their product labels list the ingredients. The bottles also have child-proof caps and safety seals.

I wish all the e-liquid vendors operated like that!

 

[JerryRM]

The whole reason I started buying my liquid from Johnson Creek is because they seem to be doing everything that would be required of them if e-liquids were being regulated. I like their liquid, but what drew me to them initially was confidence in the brand.

They're registered with the FDA as a manufacturer of products for human consumption, their liquid is made entirely by them (it's not just an imported unflavored e-liquid that they add flavoring to) and their product labels list the ingredients. The bottles also have child-proof caps and safety seals.

I wish all the e-liquid vendors operated like that!

I agree telsie. I am a big fan of Johnson Creek, I just wish they had more variety.

 

[cainne]

posted in error, please delete

 

[cainne]

I have not ordered from Johnson Creek personally Telsie but I have heard that before as well.

That's exactly the route I think all manufacturers need to go and the whole purpose of my post was to suggest, as a consumer body, that we exert pressure on other manufacturers to adopt that model. The safer and the more compliant the product, the more ammo WE have when these bans are trying to be pushed through.

 

[CJsKee]

+1 Telsie...I don't usually use JC liquids simply because I don't really care for them BUT all liquid suppliers/makers could certainly take a lesson from them. And this is the reason I use mainly Dekang liquids.

I've been very disappointed in most of the "USA Made" liquids that have come on the market in the past few months, as most do not even bother with child proof caps, which should be a minimum safety feature. I'm afraid that a lot of our liquids will not survive long unless they step it up a bit. There are a few (Halo comes to mind) that are doing an excellent job and may make it. But IMO those that are merely mixing flavoring in nic liquid and putting it in bottles with hand written labels have a long way to go.

The real world is going to intrude in all things e-cig (sooner, I'm afraid, rather than later) and it will be a completely different ball game. Our little "mom & pop" shops have been the backbone for a lot of us and I enjoy a lot of their liquids. I just hope they can begin now to integrate changes that will assure they are around for a long time.

The whole reason I started buying my liquid from Johnson Creek is because they seem to be doing everything that would be required of them if e-liquids were being regulated. I like their liquid, but what drew me to them initially was confidence in the brand.

They're registered with the FDA as a manufacturer of products for human consumption, their liquid is made entirely by them (it's not just an imported unflavored e-liquid that they add flavoring to) and their product labels list the ingredients. The bottles also have child-proof caps and safety seals.

I wish all the e-liquid vendors operated like that!

 

[5cardstud]

One thought about the FDA, Don't they approve the sale of tabacco products? The FDA isn't no golden child with any more validity to their backing than I am.

 

[kristin]

It'll be interesting to watch the fallout the first time someone gets sick (and sues) or dies from mislabeled nicotine strength or cheap PG contaminated with diethylene glycol or a kid drinks a mouthful of 60mg liquid that someone accidentally dropped on the sidewalk without a safety cap.

Gee, won't it be great that we'll at least know to avoid THAT liquid vendor. So it all works itself out, right?

Of course, all the ecig users who never go to ecig forums won't know it.

I bet the kneejerk reaction from the antis and legislators will result in a lot more severe regulation than the simple steps it would have taken to help prevent it in the first place, too.

Time will tell.

 

[cainne]

how big a label do you want on a 5ml bottle?....

Really?

Labels on small medicine bottles come in fold outs. Bottles CAN be put in cardboard boxes. Bottle size is hardly the limiting factor here.

 

[keveck]

As for "You could replicate X companies recipe if you knew what was in it" no, you couldn't. Ingredients are typically listed by weight, knowing WHAT is in something doesn't mean you know how much and in what proportion. I don't think it's very hard to guess what flavorings are used in, say, strawberry cheesecake. Yes there could be something surprising like "a bit of vanilla" in there but I'm pretty sure with lorann's flavorings I could get pretty close starting with cheesecake and strawberry flavors. People that want to DYI will, and probably already are. I don't want to deal with the headache/mess. If we're honest I think that plays the majority role in people deciding whether to purchase or mix themselves; not whether vanilla is a secret ingredient in X flavor and it's a bit off without it so they purchase from x company instead of trying to make it themselves.

Again, I disagree strongly. Strawberry cheesecake is a bad example. All basic recipes would be easy to copy; But try something complicated like Halo, for example. Say that Halo released the ingredients to one of their liquids. Say it's only 5 ingredients (along with the usual PG, VG, nicotine, etc.). It wouldn't take long to figure out the mix. Start with a basic mix and add flavors til they taste the same. Then you would have your "Bob" scenario where people would be making it on the forums for MUCH cheaper than Halo sells it for with little regard to proper measurement levels of nicotine.

There are ingredients that are mandated to be listed SPECIFICALLY by the FDA for very good reason, they make up the most common allergens.

Yes, and those are

• milk
• egg
• fish
• Crustacean shellfish
• tree nuts
• wheat
• peanuts
• soybeans

Honestly, the only ones you might have to worry about causing a problem are flavors like peanut butter and dairy flavors. I'm lactose intolerant and have never had ANY problems with dairy flavors though. And if you were allergic to peanuts, why would you even consider vaping a peanut butter flavor?

And again, even from that link:

How are spices, natural flavors or artificial flavors declared in ingredient lists?
Answer: These may be declared in ingredient lists by using either specific common or usual names or by using the declarations "spices," "flavor" or "natural flavor," or "artificial flavor."

It'll be interesting to watch the fallout the first time someone gets sick (and sues) or dies from mislabeled nicotine strength or cheap PG contaminated with diethylene glycol or a kid drinks a mouthful of 60mg liquid that someone accidentally dropped on the sidewalk without a safety cap.

I agree, that would be horrible. However, the only way to ensure compliance and safety is to have independent testing of liquids from vendors. Every single batch. Seems a bit impossible, eh? And just about every vendor I've seen in the US uses USP or food grade VG and PG. There should be no way that will ever be contaminated with diethylene glycol.
​

Really?

Labels on small medicine bottles come in fold outs. Bottles CAN be put in cardboard boxes. Bottle size is hardly the limiting factor here.

Say goodbye to samples if this happens. It just isn't cost effective to place a 3 or 5mL bottle in a box with a foldout pamphlet. And there's no way you could add a foldout to a 3 or 5mL bottle. It would never fit.



Bottom line, just be safe. Use vendors that you trust, check their credentials...hell, even test their liquid for nicotine content. Just leave all this crazy regulation out of it while we still can. If you're worried about childproof caps, proper labeling, fingerprint scanners and all that jazz - order from a vendor who does this. That's the best way to show how much you want this to happen.

I really don't care for childproof bottles either.
It's called responsibility. I have a son and two curious animals...but everything I own containing nicotine is in a locked container. I took matters into my own hands and suggest you all do the same.

 

[cainne]

You really don't get it man.

"Say good bye to samples" ??? Not really, you can package them in a set like johnson creek with ingredient lists on the box. The consumer, you, just gets to pay a bit extra for that cost. That's not really the end of the world.

"It just isn't cost effective to place a 3 or 5mL bottle in a box with a foldout pamphlet. And there's no way you could add a foldout to a 3 or 5mL bottle. It would never fit."
Really? Validate that. What is the cost? I've just described a way you could list the ingredients on a box multiple flavor samples came in. Not only is your argument missing the overall point but it's an argument from ignorance. "I, keveck, sitting here at my computer can not think of a way it could be done cost effectively therefore it must not be possible." Usually those tend to not hold true. Even if it did and it was no longer cost effective for mom and pop shops to sell samples... frankly.. oh well. Again, not the end of the world. If they can't find a cost effective way to sell samples, they don't sell samples. Many vendors already don't do samples.

The question isn't whether these things will be mandated or whether they won't be. It's "Will these things be mandated or will ecigs just be completely banned." I'd prefer the former to the latter.

I mean honestly, wake up. Look around your home, pesticides, aspirin, cough medicine, these ALL have child proof caps and labeling. The precedent has been well set. Do you SERIOUSLY think that the FDA is going to shrug their shoulders, back down and issue a memorandum next week stating "We have decided to not regulate the sale of fluid containing nicotine being sold for human consumption. Please enjoy and we'll trust you to be safe and do the right thing. It's called responsibility, we suggest you simply take matters into your own hands. Have a good day."

Frankly with all the reasons out there that they have to want to ban vaping your mentality of "we want to do it how we want to do it" is just handing them another nail to hammer into the coffin. I think even you realize that when you say "Let's leave the crazy regulation out of it WHILE WE STILL CAN."

We really have two choices here, play and dance while Rome burns around us and hide under the covers pretending that nothing bad will ever happen then just HOPE that we somehow luck out and ecigs aren't banned nationwide or take PROACTIVE steps to try to show that the industry is willing to comply with similar rules that are already in place and thus increase our chances of just getting regulated, not banned.

What does that cost? A dollar or two more per bottle? Dealing with a child proof cap you just have to take off ONCE when you get the bottle in the mail and replace with a dropper top if you prefer? Making vendors post a batch ID and ingredient list along with a nicotine poison warning? You really consider that "excessive"? I've yet to hear a valid argument of why that would be considered an undue or excessive burden. It's the standard in just about every industry out there that makes products for human consumption.

I think you're looking at this from much to short term of a mindset.

 

[keveck]

It's late, I'll keep this short.

"Say good bye to samples" ??? Not really, you can package them in a set like johnson creek with ingredient lists on the box. The consumer, you, just gets to pay a bit extra for that cost. That's not really the end of the world.

"It just isn't cost effective to place a 3 or 5mL bottle in a box with a foldout pamphlet. And there's no way you could add a foldout to a 3 or 5mL bottle. It would never fit."
Really? Validate that. What is the cost? I've just described a way you could list the ingredients on a box multiple flavor samples came in. Not only is your argument missing the overall point but it's an argument from ignorance. "I, keveck, sitting here at my computer can not think of a way it could be done cost effectively therefore it must not be possible." Usually those tend to not hold true. Even if it did and it was no longer cost effective for mom and pop shops to sell samples... frankly.. oh well. Again, not the end of the world. If they can't find a cost effective way to sell samples, they don't sell samples. Many vendors already don't do samples.

1) I was referring to individual samples.
2) All I stated was that a pamphlet would not fit on a 3 or 5mL bottle. I don't need to validate that. Look at the bottle. If you can fit a full warning list in a foldout document that's only 1cm high, kudos to you. Good luck reading it.
3)And yes, I stand by my opinion that samples would not be cost effective to make.

I mean honestly, wake up. Look around your home, pesticides, aspirin, cough medicine, these ALL have child proof caps and labeling.

Say what?
ALL?
Pesticide child proof cap?

Or did you mean a more conventional product, like this?

Aspirin?

Note the small text in the bottom center. "This package for households without young children." Know why? There's no childproof cap on this bottle.

Again, where's the childproof cap on this?

And guess what? These are all FDA approved.
well, the pesticide isn't(I don't think), but it's not a food...

My point here is this. We are surrounded by poisons that have useful functions. The key is to use and store them properly.

Do you have toothpaste in your house? Guess what? too much toothpaste will kill you! It even tastes good! Better call the FDA and have them put a childproof cap on it!

Do you see where I'm heading with the convenience issue?






Childproof caps do not work well enough for me to trust having them laying around either. Yes, responsibility must come from the purchaser. \

If you don't feel confident enough to handle this stuff, go back to your FDA approved cigarettes. (That was meant to be a joke, please take it lightly.)

I believe you're taking this whole thing a bit too seriously too. I'm here for discussion, not to start a firefight. I'm not the deciding factor in any of this, I'm just one person. I'm trying to show you the valid counterpoint to your opinion.

 

[topaz_stone71]

I have contacted e-juice suppliers and informed them of a food allergy. They have never refused to tell me if the allergen was in the flavors I've ordered.