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Safer in what sense, and what's not safe about VG derived from Palm oil?
Well, I haven't heard of most people saying that, but if you are concerned you should spend a bit of time reviewing what other products are made from it, including many of your prepared foods to saps to cosmetics and whatnot.
Vegetable glycerin is all the same, no matter which plant it is derived from.
From Wikipedia:
Glycerol is a simple polyol compound. It is a colorless, odorless, viscous liquid that is sweet-tasting and non-toxic. The glycerol backbone is found in all lipids known as triglycerides.
Glycerol is generally obtained from plant and animal sources where it occurs as triglycerides. Triglycerides are esters of glycerol with long-chain carboxylic acids.
Typical plant sources include soybeans or palm. Animal-derived tallow is another source.
If it is animal derived (ie; tallow) it is not vegetable glycerin.
You want organic vegetable glycerin? That's up to you. Whether it comes from palm or olives makes no difference.
From Wikipedia:
Glycerol is a simple polyol compound. It is a colorless, odorless, viscous liquid that is sweet-tasting and non-toxic. The glycerol backbone is found in all lipids known as triglycerides.
Glycerol is generally obtained from plant and animal sources where it occurs as triglycerides. Triglycerides are esters of glycerol with long-chain carboxylic acids.
Typical plant sources include soybeans or palm. Animal-derived tallow is another source.
If it is animal derived (ie; tallow) it is not vegetable glycerin.
You want organic vegetable glycerin? That's up to you. Whether it comes from palm or olives makes no difference.
The most people you speak of sound like they are incorrectly informed and if you want to post something like you did please provide some documentation to back up this statement. And please do not say you read it somewhere because I am asking for real testing results and documented proof.
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I actually never herd of VG derived from olive oil??????. Usual's are coconut, palm and soy derivatives. Also what's not safe about these derivatives?
Seems to me someones got there facts a bit messed up. I thought the debate was about how Palm derivatives are mostly from china where there practices of harvesting palm is causing all sorts of air pollution.
Another Culprit Of Air Pollution: Palm Oil Used In Deodorants And Cookies
Seems to me someones got there facts a bit messed up. I thought the debate was about how Palm derivatives are mostly from china where there practices of harvesting palm is causing all sorts of air pollution.
Another Culprit Of Air Pollution: Palm Oil Used In Deodorants And Cookies
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VG can come from a lot of different plant sources including olives. I am thinking however that it would be some fairly expensive VG, seeing how the price of any kind of olive oil is considerably greater than even the highest grade of palm oil.
I did a couple of quick google searches and I couldn't find any links for VG derived from olive oil (product OR discussion). I too would be interested in OP's info sources.
Only thing I can think of is that there are some people that are allergic to Palm oil in foods.... Oil-lipids-fats etc are different molecularity than glycerol? Maybe those that are allergic to palm oil are afraid or allergic to anything that comes from palm? Same would go for those allergic to soy or coconut. ?
Like ceeceeisme said vegetable glycerin is same, as long as its derived from vegetables ?
Now all this talk of derivatives makes me wonder. I dont mean to derail, but now you all have be wondering...
Lets take oil. Oil is basically oil, its either from animal or vegetable or petro/ synth.
SOme oils have a higher burn rating than others. I know that sesame oil can take a LOT more heat before it burns compared to reg olive or corn oil.
Some glycerol might be different on the molecular level and act differently when heated or mixed with certain flavorings etc.
We can go on and on, but you might make yourself nuts. To the OP,
Do you have a known allergy to palm oil? If not, dont worry , at least youre not smoking cigarettes
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not most people saying,EFSA saying this.
The highest levels of GE, as well as 3-MCPD and 2-MCPD (including esters) were found in palm oils and palm fats, followed by other oils and fats.
Process contaminants in vegetable oils and foods | European Food Safety Authority
Many VG manufacturers use non-palm feedstock and highlights it on the bottle/website, because it's usage is linked to deforestation issues in the rainforrest in e.g. malaysia/indonisia.
VG is very often made of rapeseed(as in rapeseedoil) if produced in the EU, and also at times peanut, sessame and mustard-seeds etc so it wouldn't surprice me that olive-oil is used, except as already stated that it seems like a more uneconomic option to use. Every oil or fat has a glycerol molecule as a backbone to the fatty-acids that makes up the oil, which is distilled and purified out to make glycerin(glycerin/VG is trade-names for glycerol)
I don't agree that all VG is the same though, as they sometimes taste different, though if not vaping unflavored then not an issue. Most of the ones i've vaped though have been very similar and most I wouldn't be able to blind-differentiate through, but some are a little different which can be both in a good and bad way. I suspect it's different feedstocks used and miniscule impurities that is the reason for this. I've (taste-)tested 10+ VGs myself. I believe the USP/EP allows very slight impurities in glycerin, and so it's not only glycerol and water I believe, although that is the vast majority for sure.
VG is very often made of rapeseed(as in rapeseedoil) if produced in the EU, and also at times peanut, sessame and mustard-seeds etc so it wouldn't surprice me that olive-oil is used, except as already stated that it seems like a more uneconomic option to use. Every oil or fat has a glycerol molecule as a backbone to the fatty-acids that makes up the oil, which is distilled and purified out to make glycerin(glycerin/VG is trade-names for glycerol)
I don't agree that all VG is the same though, as they sometimes taste different, though if not vaping unflavored then not an issue. Most of the ones i've vaped though have been very similar and most I wouldn't be able to blind-differentiate through, but some are a little different which can be both in a good and bad way. I suspect it's different feedstocks used and miniscule impurities that is the reason for this. I've (taste-)tested 10+ VGs myself. I believe the USP/EP allows very slight impurities in glycerin, and so it's not only glycerol and water I believe, although that is the vast majority for sure.
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A quick glance at the link providing is not talking about vegetable glycerin but rather Vegetable oils and foods. I do not vape "oils" and although does mention some nasties it does not pertain to vaping. Anyone else read the link more in depth?
I too saw that the research pertained to oils and not glycerol/glycerine. I followed the links to the original paper, but I am not anything remotely close to a chemist, so I was almost immediately over my head. I am not going to pretend I understood anything. Thus my silence.
I have no idea what impurities are removed, and what are left behind, during the refining process to create the glycerine. So I will leave this discussion to smarter people than me. Perhaps this might be worthy of asking about on the "Ask the Chemist" thread?
I have no idea what impurities are removed, and what are left behind, during the refining process to create the glycerine. So I will leave this discussion to smarter people than me. Perhaps this might be worthy of asking about on the "Ask the Chemist" thread?
Comparing VG derived from palm oil to actual food grade palm oil is like comparing apples to oranges. In fact, it's even further from that.
Vegetable glycerin is an organic compound of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen with the chemical formula C3H8O3. It consists of a chain of three carbon atoms, to which are attached hydrogen atoms on one side and hydroxyl (OH) groups on the other (a hydroxyl group is a pair of atoms that is commonly found in organic compounds such as sugars and alcohols)
Pharmaceutical grade VG is either a purified distillate (a residual of the soap making industry) or directly isolated by processing vegetable oils (with the addition of water) under high heat and pressure. No matter which process is used, what comes out the other side is pure vegetable glycerin, devoid of any trace impurities that were present in the originating oils used to make it. When you see 99.5% USP PURE VG on a label, the other 0.5% is residual water. I've seen VG claiming it is 99.7% pure, so again, the other 0.3% is water that cannot be isolated from the final compound.
I hope my explanation can help to clarify this discussion. It never hurts to ask questions.
Vegetable glycerin is an organic compound of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen with the chemical formula C3H8O3. It consists of a chain of three carbon atoms, to which are attached hydrogen atoms on one side and hydroxyl (OH) groups on the other (a hydroxyl group is a pair of atoms that is commonly found in organic compounds such as sugars and alcohols)
Pharmaceutical grade VG is either a purified distillate (a residual of the soap making industry) or directly isolated by processing vegetable oils (with the addition of water) under high heat and pressure. No matter which process is used, what comes out the other side is pure vegetable glycerin, devoid of any trace impurities that were present in the originating oils used to make it. When you see 99.5% USP PURE VG on a label, the other 0.5% is residual water. I've seen VG claiming it is 99.7% pure, so again, the other 0.3% is water that cannot be isolated from the final compound.
I hope my explanation can help to clarify this discussion.
It never hurts to ask questions.So @ceeceeisme, if I am understanding what you said correctly, once purity of the C3H8O3 compound is reached, the source material (plant, animal, synthetic) is irrelevant. It is only a matter of the cost of production and refinement, as well as human perception, that affects cost and availability? The source of the compound itself would not be discernible?
I'm sorry if this is a silly question. I am afraid my high school science classes were too many decades ago and you volunteered.
I'm sorry if this is a silly question. I am afraid my high school science classes were too many decades ago and you volunteered.
I don't have the USP, but then please explain why when adding water + glycerol in a COA, then it's not 100%, atleast not always. Second, please explain the testing element of fatty acids and esters. Lastly, and most important, I can see from some VG COAs that according to USP37 a limit of 0.1(single) and 1(total) impurities is allowed listed under related compounds.
There's a difference in saying that the VAST majority is water with regards to impurities and that ALL is water
Note, I'm no expert myself so really don't know, but speculate according to above, that this is the case...
Edit: Oh, you say pure vegetable glycerin, now that is true. However, glycerin is just trade name for sold glycerol and the USP only needs 99% glycerol. I'm talking about if there's other than glycerol and water in glycerin
A pharmaceutical pure product almost always isn't fully pure, but just VERY pure. There are ratios set for the impurities which is allowed, just like e.g. USP nic which like glycerin is 99% min. Normally the EP is stricter but in the case of glycerin it's actually the other way around with "only" 98% glycerol needed. No matter what, i've never seen neither a USP and/or EP glycerin under 99.5 min, well, actually never seen under 99.6 and never seen over 99.91 or 99.93, can't remember for sure.
There's a difference in saying that the VAST majority is water with regards to impurities and that ALL is water
Note, I'm no expert myself so really don't know, but speculate according to above, that this is the case...
Edit: Oh, you say pure vegetable glycerin, now that is true. However, glycerin is just trade name for sold glycerol and the USP only needs 99% glycerol. I'm talking about if there's other than glycerol and water in glycerin
A pharmaceutical pure product almost always isn't fully pure, but just VERY pure. There are ratios set for the impurities which is allowed, just like e.g. USP nic which like glycerin is 99% min. Normally the EP is stricter but in the case of glycerin it's actually the other way around with "only" 98% glycerol needed. No matter what, i've never seen neither a USP and/or EP glycerin under 99.5 min, well, actually never seen under 99.6 and never seen over 99.91 or 99.93, can't remember for sure.
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So @ceeceeisme, if I am understanding what you said correctly, once purity of the C3H8O3 compound is reached, the source material (plant, animal, synthetic) is irrelevant. It is only a matter of the cost of production and refinement, as well as human perception, that affects cost and availability? The source of the compound itself would not be discernible?
I'm sorry if this is a silly question. I am afraid my high school science classes were too many decades ago and you volunteered.
Not a silly question at all! And yes, you're correct that the source material will be indiscernible in the final compound. Any variation in taste would be a psychological bias effect. ie; if one thinks they can taste a hint coconut flavor in coconut based VG it's indeed because their brain thinks it.
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