Olive oil VG

[ceeceeisme]

A pharmaceutical pure product almost always isn't fully pure, but just VERY pure. There are ratios set for the impurities which is allowed, just like e.g. USP nic which like glycerin is 99% min. Normally the EP is stricter but in the case of glycerin it's actually the other way around with "only" 98% glycerol needed. No matter what, i've never seen neither a USP and/or EP glycerin under 99.5 min, well, actually never seen under 99.6 and never seen over 99.91 or 99.93, can't remember for sure.

No matter how you slice it, the final product is arrived at through a process of fractional distillation. Fractional distillation utilizes high heat under pressure and separates substances one by one as the temperature rises. This purification process is unparalleled by any other method known to science for the purpose of separating liquids.

VG is fractionally distilled, thus it is a pure product including any residual water that may remain.

Fractional distillation - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[mhertz]

Unparalleled or not, the product is allowed to be impure as per the USP, but I guess I will have to take your word for it then... Also, you quote the small-talk part of my posting and not the direct questions...

 

[mhertz]

Not a silly question at all! And yes, you're correct that the source material will be indiscernible in the final compound. Any variation in taste would be a psychological bias effect. ie; if one thinks they can taste a hint coconut flavor in coconut based VG it's indeed because their brain thinks it.

I have never tasted coconut, palm, rapeseed, soy or whatever in VG. I have however blind-tested that there to me is a difference, and no, not a taste of above mentioned items. I have tried over 10 VGs. Of them I can only blind-differentiate between 2 of them, not the rest. You are free to not believe me of course The only explenation to me was that it's either manufacturer-differences or impurities. Just like with nic, the very slightest of impurities can change the taste...

 

[ceeceeisme]

Unparalleled or not, the product is allowed to be impure as per the USP, but I guess I will have to take your word for it then... Also, you quote the small-talk part of my posting and not the direct questions...

Perhaps a better way of explaining what 99.5% "purity" means:

99.5% is pure VG, the other 0.5% is not "unpure". It is pure distilled water.

So while 100% of the contents of the bottle are pure, only 99.5% is pure VG.

 

[mhertz]

Please excuse me for saying this, but i'm not an idiot If you reread my posting(s) you would know this obviously isn't what i'm refering to!

 

[ceeceeisme]

I have never tasted coconut, palm, rapeseed, soy or whatever in VG. I have however blind-tested that there to me is a difference, and no, not a taste of above mentioned items. I have tried over 10 VGs. Of them I can only blind-differentiate between 2 of them, not the rest. You are free to not believe me of course The only explenation to me was that it's either manufacturer-differences or impurities. Just like with nic, the very slightest of impurities can change the taste...

This can probably be explained through the amount of water that is left in the VG.

Also, I can't stress enough to always buy from a trusted source. Anybody can slap a label on a jug of VG and say it's whatever purity they like.

And, to complicate matters, contamination can and does happen under re-bottling conditions. Most re-sellers bottle VG from drum sized batches. Not everybody uses a clean room or adheres to lab requirements for cleanliness.

 

[ceeceeisme]

Please excuse me for saying this, but i'm not an idiot If you reread my posting(s) you would know this obviously isn't what i'm refering to!

Never thought you were an idiot. Sorry if it came across that way!

 

[mhertz]

That is for sure a distinct possibility(water-differences and/or contamination's). Note, I never trust a label and go by glycerol amount from COA or mail vendor.

Btw, I understand when people say that they taste this and that, then it's often an illusion and that is also why I specifically blind-taste if I think I can taste a difference. I once was on an audio-codec forum for e.g. ripping CDs and such and the really cool thing about the rules there where that if someone posted they could hear a difference between something, then they where demanded to post AB/X proof of it(blind-hearing-test) or refrain of talking about it...

 

[mhertz]

Never thought you were an idiot. Sorry if it came across that way!

Thanks, and likewise sorry for "over-reacting"

 

[ceeceeisme]

Thanks, and likewise sorry for "over-reacting"

No worries. I usually avoid threads where chemistry is being discussed because:

a) I am not a good teacher and I know it

b) they end up being long and involved and I really don't have time, especially when I'm working under a deadline for a project

c) I never mean to offend anybody but sometimes my phraseology could be better

If chemistry was simple they would teach you all you need to know in high school When I started my degree I spent a year in organic chemistry then decided to jump to metallurgy. Organics didn't float my boat, now geology and metals, that's interesting!

 

[mhertz]

Thanks alot for weighing in on this ceeceeisme I was hesitant to ask you in which line of field you where in professionally(seemed impolite), but im happy to know you have qualified knowledge of this and not just e.g. copy/pasting wikipedia etc.

 

[IDJoel]

And, to complicate matters, contamination can and does happen under re-bottling conditions. Most re-sellers bottle VG from drum sized batches. Not everybody uses a clean room or adheres to lab requirements for cleanliness.

Great point and something I never thought to consider. I have been known to occasionally have a frosty barley pop with a meal when I am dining out; and I can tell by taste quite quickly whether the establishment performs the required maintenance/cleaning to the draft system. I would imagine the potential for contamination, through similar neglect during VG re-bottling, can happen as well.

 

[IDJoel]

and not just e.g. copy/pasting wikipedia

Hey! Even Wiki gets it right... once in a while!!

 

[mhertz]

I'm also now thinking that my taste issues possibly can come from containers used during rebottling. One place I have bought unicorn bottles from, had a strange liqurish note to them and even after cleaning them many times in really hot water and soap, then when using those bottles it interferes with my unflavored vape, so I decided to ditch them and buy from another vendor.

IDJoel, lol Well, I think that wikipedia usually are correct and as they are also moderated/approved I believe, but I was here talking about the wording of the purification process used and such, which I have several times seen people copy/paste directly. This is fine of course, but makes it harder to learn if the person actually is knowledgable in the field or just parroting off knowledge. The copy/pasted part is most probably correct, but the later conclusion that comes after, which isn't copy/pasted as not written on wikipedia then comes in question for me personally... If the specific answer is copy/pasted, then i'll take it

 

[ceeceeisme]

lol... let's face it, wiki is already well done and is succinct in plain to understand English.

At this stage in my career I exclusively write technical process specifications for the manufacture of nickel and titanium alloys as applied in the aerospace industry. I try to use plain English when not speaking to engineers otherwise I get that familiar glazed over look of "huh?" about 60 seconds after I start talking.

 

[SteveS45]

I usually get that look #ceeceeisme when I am trying to explain to the end user the problem with their PC is the person sitting behind the keyboard...................

 

[IDJoel]

the problem with their PC is the person sitting behind the keyboard.

You must be looking over my shoulder!

 

[SteveS45]

It is so often and everyday that it just becomes one of those times you just nod and say OK

 

[mhertz]

I just thought of something... VG made from included jatropha plant in feedstock used is dangerous, and hence, the newer USP rev included a testing specification to test for no jatropha leftover in the glycerin I believe or something related...

I'm sorry for keeping on with this, but doesn't this also sound a little along the lines that very, very minute leftovers can be present? LIke I believe the USP allows, as per the COA testing element:

Related compounds: Individual impurities(excluding any solvent peak and diethylene glycol)

max 1% total and 0.1% for individual impurities

as per USP37

(Water is a separate test and not included in above test)

Glycerol and water added together in COA's often isn't 100%...

Also the testing element of fatty acid and esters allowed under specific threshold. Fatty acids is the original feedstock as is what is left when the glycerol is split from the fatty acids in one to three ratio.

If ceeceeisme or other in the know could when time allows explain these things. If everyone uses a process where the slightest leftovers isn't a possibility, then why have these USP tests for making sure they are under certain threshholds.

Said in another way, if the COA lists glycerol + water as under 100%, then can't I pressume there's impurities?

Honest question here

Also, from my googlings i've read there are other methods to make glycerin than hydrolisation. Again honest question as i'm not knowledgeable on this myself.

...And i'm not talking about big perceivable impurities here as of course the vast, vast majority is glycerol and water, I fully get that. The question for me is purely if there can be the very slightest of minute impurities, as in e.g. USP nic etc.

Also, about my taste "issues", of whatever reason they stems from, is as said, only very few glycerins, and only a possibility because i'm both vaping unflavored and is "cursed" with a pretty sensitive palate...

Edit: I've read up a little on the manufacturing-process and the fractional distillation used to remove water, but even there, not all water is removed, there's generally "atleast" 0.03% water and very often more(here I just mean that it's not a "perfect" method). Second, the glycerin afterwards is treated with varying compounds, like e.g. activated carbon, to remove color impurities and odour impurities and it's here I suspect the differences lies as no "standard." If some glycerin has more "odor" removed than others, then it could possibly affect taste i'm here thinking? I have bought USP/EP glycerin from a known vendor who produces it themselves and they've made it for over 10 years. I've mailed back and fourth with the owner many times, because some few batches had a taste I didn't like, and it was easy noticable just by taking a spoon and tasting it directly, and I got a replacement sent without the issue. These cases wasen't even in my list of the examples I stated to be able to blind-differentiate between.

 

[ceeceeisme]

I just thought of something... VG made from included jatropha plant in feedstock used is dangerous, and hence, the newer USP rev included a testing specification to test for no jatropha leftover in the glycerin I believe or something related...

I'm sorry for keeping on with this, but doesn't this also sound a little along the lines that very, very minute leftovers can be present? LIke I believe the USP allows, as per the COA testing element:

Related compounds: Individual impurities(excluding any solvent peak and diethylene glycol)

max 1% total and 0.1% for individual impurities

as per USP37

(Water is a separate test and not included in above test)

Glycerol and water added together in COA's often isn't 100%...

Also the testing element of fatty acid and esters allowed under specific threshold. Fatty acids is the original feedstock as is what is left when the glycerol is split from the fatty acids in one to three ratio.

If ceeceeisme or other in the know could when time allows explain these things. If everyone uses a process where the slightest leftovers isn't a possibility, then why have these USP tests for making sure they are under certain threshholds.

Said in another way, if the COA lists glycerol + water as under 100%, then can't I pressume there's impurities?

Honest question here

Also, from my googlings i've read there are other methods to make glycerin than hydrolisation. Again honest question as i'm not knowledgeable on this myself.

...And i'm not talking about big perceivable impurities here as of course the vast, vast majority is glycerol and water, I fully get that. The question for me is purely if there can be the very slightest of minute impurities, as in e.g. USP nic etc.

Also, about my taste "issues", of whatever reason they stems from, is as said, only very few glycerins, and only a possibility because i'm both vaping unflavored and is "cursed" with a pretty sensitive palate...

lol... valid question. I can see you are a person who cares about the quality of the ingredients in your vape. Nothing wrong with that. Personally, I have more concern about what's in the flavorings we use than the VG.

So here I'll copy and paste Wikipedia for you:

Crude glycerol from the hydrolysis of triglycerides can be purified by treatment with activated carbon to remove organic impurities, alkali to remove unreacted glycerol esters, and ion exchange to remove salts. High purity glycerol (> 99.5%) is obtained by multi-step distillation; vacuum is helpful due to the high boiling point of glycerol (290 °C).[5]

This last part is the stick in the mud. See how it notes, "vacuum is helpful"? Vacuum is actually essential. Worldwide, there are varying protocols utilized in production depending on the application for the final product. There is no single universal standard for production methods and what is acceptable in one country may not be in another. To compound this issue there are also varying degrees of governmental oversight and independent testing to ensure minimal standards are maintained.

You can rest assured however, when you have a product that is 99.5% pure and higher, this purity can only be obtained via fractional distillation. Therefore, no elements remain due to the fact the product has been distilled to achieve this level of purity.

If you're at all worried about jatropha leftovers, I can only suggest you don't buy VG sourced from India. In fact, when I buy VG I want to know the plant source. Thus I buy organic coconut VG.

Now does it matter that it is organic? Nope, it doesn't. The source I buy from just happens to ensure their product is organic.