omg flavor muted again.....

[junior28186]

so, i was playing with 3 single flavor juice im testing

pineapple
bleberry extra
and apple

all from TPA

i tought they were good but laccking a bit of a sweet thing. add 2% em in each and then BOOM, done, no more flavor at all.

do you think i add too much, or i should keep putting more base flavoring because it mute a bit?

or they are just gone forever?

 

[we2rcool]

so, i was playing with 3 single flavor juice im testing

pineapple
bleberry extra
and apple

all from TPA

i tought they were good but laccking a bit of a sweet thing. add 2% em in each and then BOOM, done, no more flavor at all.

do you think i add too much, or i should keep putting more base flavoring because it mute a bit?

or they are just gone forever?

'Guess you haven't already read it, so here it is again.

EM flattens, dulls and "kills flavor, dead" (in high percentages)....just like you've experienced. The purpose of EM is to "smooth rough edges" and add "fullness". It should not be considered a "sweetener". EM would have to be sweeter than what it's being added to in order to qualify as a 'sweetener'...and although it smells likely cotton candy, it's barely sweet at all.

Most recommend it's use at .1%- .5% or below. At percentages higher than .5%, it not only mutes flavors, it can also temporarily deaden taste buds.

It does have it's usefulness in certain situations/juices (particularly "sharp" flavors and certain tobaccos).

You'll always do your best DIYing if you get to know your flavors (and how they play together at different percentages) before you start adding things that change them.

'Never any fun to ruin a juice, that's for sure. But this is a good one to learn 'early on', so you don't struggle for months/years (or end up using 2-3x more flavor chemicals than you really need)!

 

[DeloresRose]

I've heard that about EM, but what is better to use?

 

[bcollier9253]

I've heard that about EM, but what is better to use?

It's best to no additives at all. Try using a hint of another sweeter flavor if your trying to sweeten things up. Brown sugar extra(TFA), Caramel to name a couple. All depends on the base notes in your recipe what will work. I'm sure we2 will be back on here and fill in the blanks.

Oh! And read the blogs by Hoosier and Danny45

 

[junior28186]

damn thats quite confusing, so much people saying they are using this for sweetening juice.

in the tpa flavoring thread pineapple is listed at 15% plus 5% em so i tought beginning with 2 %........

i have marshmallow but i saw it contain acetoin and i might consider trashing it

 

[SLIPPY_EEL]

i use EM all the time no problem

when I first started using it I would do the same and go to high % wise

I use it in most of my mixes for example I have a peach that is seriously lacking sweetness but with 0.5% EM (1drop per10ml)
it seriously makes a difference, but I will def not go over that %, I wont even bother trying to make cotton candy with it, cus I lose
my taste buds


I got my mrs to give me a second opinion on the taste of the peach before and after and she don't like peach but with that tiny amount added she said wow that nice so..

but I do let mine steep naturally so not sure how it is straight away unsteeped, might be ok, fruits are good straight from mixing


in my peach I use:-
EM 0.5%
MTS 0.5%
TART&SOUR 0.5%

I don't get any flavour loss, it gets better

just throwing that out aswell, gl

 

[bcollier9253]

Yeah I'm not saying don't use EM at all but use at very low %'s. I made the mistake using all said additives in the beginning only for major let down. After trial and error and seeing numerous test by others I just don't use any additives. That's just me though.

 

[SLIPPY_EEL]

We2rcool or anyone else for that matter do you know if you can fix an EM overdose or does it kill the flavour? im asking cus I don't know if its a chem reaction to the juice or taste buds if that makes sense!?






I would have asked you all to send your EM to me if you are quitting using it but this 10ml bottle @ 0.5% is going to last a seriously long time

I've heard that about EM, but what is better to use?

 

[Bryong70]

I don't use EM at all, it kills the flavor and has a chemical dry taste to me. I use Stevia or sucralose based sweetener, like TFA Sweetener.

 

[SLIPPY_EEL]

yer but what% did you use it at? i don't taste chemical and my senses are above average lol

I don't use EM at all, it kills the flavor and has a chemical dry taste to me. I use Stevia or sucralose based sweetener, like TFA Sweetener.

 

[Bryong70]

yer but what% did you use it at? i don't taste chemical and my senses are above average lol

I never go over 2% on any sweetener. I was like you, when I used EM. The flavors just got muted and tasted weird, not sweet, but almost dusty like. So I switch to stevia or sucralose, and never had a problem with that again. Sometimes if you add too much flavor, it will tend to dull the flavor and not get stronger. I mostly use TFA and FA flavors, I never go over 5% on any one flavor I use.

 

[GMayberry]

Are there any sweeteners that can be purchased at a grocery store? I just need a quick purchase to try tonight. I am learning more and more when NOT to use EM, but I don't have any other sweeteners to try.

 

[Bryong70]

Are there any sweeteners that can be purchased at a grocery store? I just need a quick purchase to try tonight. I am learning more and more when NOT to use EM, but I don't have any other sweeteners to try.

Yes, Stevia. There are many different makers of Stevia. Look for the liquid form, Sweet Leaf brand has if in liquid form. If not, powder will do also, just mix powder with PG. Stevia can be bought at most grocery and drug stores.

 

[we2rcool]

Sucralose also kills flavor - it just takes a few days for it to happen.

Those sold on sucralose (especially those that have been using it for awhile and have formulated their mixes based on it), typically have to do very controlled "side by side" tests to convince themselves...but there are some things that are not subjective, and 'sucralose mutes/kills flavor' is one of 'em.


Regarding the addition of sucralose (and other additives that diminish flavor), from here, Post #413: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/268760-diy-master-techniques-flavor-add-ons-em-vw-bw-mts-acv-ect-11.html

As far as I can recall, I was the one who tested lemon juice and the effects it had on fruit flavors. At the time I was also using sucralose (ezsweets) in fruit/bakery flavors. I also tested distilled vinegar (not acv, I dont use it) on tobaccos.

What I found with fruit and bakery vapes is they were great initally with the additives, for about two days. Then on day 3 like clockwork the sharpness/crispness of the flavor was just... plain... gone. It never rebounded either. It just continued decline. So I started testing the same juices with lemon juice and sucralose separately. Trying to find the culprit. The result in my tests was that they BOTH decrease flavor output of ejuice. While they help initally boost and sweeten flavor, within a few days, they both cause ejuice to simply go flat. While its a more dramatic example, I feel the same way about ejuice with lemon or sucralose as I do about flat soda pop. Its just lackluster.

This occured in both high VG bases at 80% and high PG bases at 80%. I tested both because I didnt want people calling me out saying VG mutes flavor, which to this day I refute as utter nonsense.

I no longer use either in any of my mixing. I have found that using fruit flavors with alcohol bases provide more than enuff sweetening o. their own if they are steeped for 48-72 hours, and it helps that I use 80%VG in my juice.

As far as tobaccos go I also agree vinegar that after a few days it can flatten flavors over time. However!!! As I vape mostly tobacco ejuices I still add 1 drop/5ml of distilled white vinegar to my vapes. To counter the flattening I adjust by adding slightly more flavoring. About .5% to 1% more flavoring in a final mix. In my experience this counters the effect of flavor flattening with DV and allows mostly all tobacco vapes to round out immediately. (note: i also heat steep my juices at a constant 150° in a water bath in a crock pot for four hours after mixing and have found it it adds about 2 weeks to the aging process of ejuice). At the 2 weeks mark (in my case then this is 4 hours after mixing), all of your tobacco flavors will have a spike in flavor and will stay there, but only round more given time. Giving you a spiked up flavor but still rounded body to your vape. I found apple cider vinegar made bad and good juuces worse with no spike at all, but to be fair I barely ever tested acv.

All of my vapes... yes read that as ALL... are primed and full bodied in four hours. Period. Ultrasonic isnt the answer either. Hand shaking is enuff for juice. Heat allows flavor dissipation and release FAR FAR better.

Alot of what I do flys in the face of common and well "documented" processes others use like ultrasonic steeping tho. (if it works for ya, great. I know what I know and heat is the key, not vibration. And yeah, I tested that too about three months ago so I stand behind it).

People just pretty much ignored my testing. I took painstaking measures to control the samples and.prove to myself the results. Today when people say they use lemon juice, or sucralose and RAVE about the results.... I know they are NOT vaping stellar juice. They are absolutely, positively, better off without both. Unless they are going to vape what they make in under two days.

Note: I did not bother testing the effects of citric acid powder in juice, but I assume it has the same effect as lemon juice and mutes flavors.

 

[HeadInClouds]

EM at 0.5% or so will tame sharp flavors, like turning a lime-zest flavor to smooth lime.
EM at higher percents can mute flavors to tasteless.
Sucralose adds sweetness, but as a recipe with sucralose ages, the effect fades.
Stevia adds the distinct flavor of stevia leaves. Try it in coffee or tea before you use it in vapes, to be sure you like that flavor.

I have a major sweet tooth, and I no longer use any of those. Instead I add sweet flavors to both sweeten and add flavor. Which I add depends on the rest of the recipe. Some of my favorite sweeteners: caramel, butterscotch, meringue, marshmallow, honey, brown sugar, molasses, maple syrup, anise, sweet fruit flavors, or sweet creams (esp FA's Vienna Cream), torrone (Italian nougat), even walnut. Most of mine are FlavourArt, some are The Flavor Apprentice.

 

[GMayberry]

Basically my head is spinning with everyone's varied ideas of sweeteners. My issue is this... I enjoy more of the bakery flavors. My fiance only vapes every so often just to kill the urge for an analog. She likes the fruity flavors. I have tried cotton candy (EM) in small doses, but I cant get the fruit flavors to "pop out" like the store bought ones do. What is the trick??

 

[bcollier9253]

Have you tried to diluting your vg with distilled water or saline or both?
I use 85% VG,6.5% Saline (helps flavors pop and adds moisture to the throat and sinus)
6.5% Distilled Water
2% everclear

That mixture is then plugged in the calculator as the needed amounts of vg

 

[GMayberry]

Typically I dont dilute at all unless it just comes out too thick to begin with. Will either of those help the flavor or just the viscosity?

 

[bcollier9253]

Typically I dont dilute at all unless it just comes out too thick to begin with. Will either of those help the flavor or just the viscosity?

They tend to help both

 

[bcollier9253]

The Saline is the .9% type. I have a EMT buddy that gets mine off the truck for me but it can be found at the drugstore as well