On Precision

[jusu]

First, a little puzzle:

Two chefs are trying to replicate a recipe, one of the chefs follows the recipe to the T, weighing and measuring everything, the other chef uses the guesstimation method, a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

Question: Which chef will present the best dish?
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Answer: The most experienced chef.

This puzzle is important as it demonstrates what happens with liquids mixing and the importance of precision when mixing a recipe.

I am a precision fanatic but over time i came to realize that even though a certain level of precision is important when replicating a recipe, precision becomes a hindrance when creating one.

Let me explain. The creation of new recipes is an art form not a science, it's strictly connected to the experience of the mixer and the knowledge of the ingredients available. A new recipe has to respect a lot of parameters, and all of them are completely subjective, like, balance, aroma, flavor, texture, mouthfeel, harshness, temperature, palate lingering, etc.

With these parameters how can you quantify/automate a new recipe? you can't, only someone with a lot of experience can achieve a new good flavor, just like our chefs, they can follow religiously a recipe if it thinks is good, or adjust it on the fly if it feels it lacks something.

I'm making this post because i have a dilemma in the calculator, and this is a way of putting the problem into perspective precisely this new recipe creation problem (right now is stiff and banal). I would like if experienced mixers could shed some light on this subject, on how do they mix, what's the process they follow so we can all learn and grow from them.

Thank you,
jusu.

 

[vaper1960]

I agree... cooking is the perfect example. Maybe you accidentally got the amounts of chili powder and cumin reversed just to find out it tasted great. Or you had to substitute something because you were out of the other ingredient and discovered a new flavor combination. Precision is like... 3.57% of a flavor weighed at a specific temperature (when 4% is close enough) Also, if obsessing too much, it can be like "can't see the forest through all those trees"

 

[vaper1960]

Don't know how much DIY you've done so far (I'm still fairly new at it myself) but first you have to make small batches of each flavor by itself. Go a bit less on the % at first... you can always add a bit more after "taste testing" it. Some flavors need to "steep" first (just need time) but go ahead and try them anyway (this also gives you and idea later which ones needed steeping and which ones don't) Do everything in very small batches (like 10 ml) After tasting them, try a few combinations... keep it simple (don't mix 5 at once) Maybe you like coffee and want to add other flavors to that (like 3 or 4... say caramel, vanilla, mint) mix coffee/caramel, coffee/vanilla, coffee/mint. Taste again, then throw them all together (they are such small batches no big deal) That's when you "play it by ear". Think to yourself "they taste OK together, but that mint is overpowering the other flavors, caramel and vanilla are both good but the combination of all three with the coffee is muddying up the mix. So choose... which one (besides the coffee) should dominate. You decide (in order of amounts) it should be coffee, caramel, vanilla, mint. Oh darn... you forgot creme... a bit of creme just makes everything else work. I just made that up as an example... suddenly think I might try it. Anyway, that's when you go ahead and mix a bigger batch (I'm actually drooling a little) I really need to order some flavors (have very few to play with... still using up the last of my pre-made juices) I need cinnamon for my french toast (and for my apple pie) chocolate and marshmallow (already have graham cracker) coffee, some more tobaccos and blackberry. Oh, sorry just thinking out loud

 

[vaper1960]

I almost forgot... do you have a mod (one that has 510 connection to use different tanks)? Get an inexpensive RDA (rebuildable dripping atomizer) There are closeout deals really cheap. Those are great for taste testing flavors. You can get pre-wound coils and will have to learn how to wick them but it's not that hard (doesn't have to be perfect for this purpose) What are you using now?

 

[jusu]

Don't know how much DIY you've done so far (I'm still fairly new at it myself) but first you have to make small batches of each flavor by itself. Go a bit less on the % at first... you can always add a bit more after "taste testing" it. Some flavors need to "steep" first (just need time) but go ahead and try them anyway (this also gives you and idea later which ones needed steeping and which ones don't) Do everything in very small batches (like 10 ml) After tasting them, try a few combinations... keep it simple (don't mix 5 at once) Maybe you like coffee and want to add other flavors to that (like 3 or 4... say caramel, vanilla, mint) mix coffee/caramel, coffee/vanilla, coffee/mint. Taste again, then throw them all together (they are such small batches no big deal) That's when you "play it by ear". Think to yourself "they taste OK together, but that mint is overpowering the other flavors, caramel and vanilla are both good but the combination of all three with the coffee is muddying up the mix. So choose... which one (besides the coffee) should dominate. You decide (in order of amounts) it should be coffee, caramel, vanilla, mint. Oh darn... you forgot creme... a bit of creme just makes everything else work. I just made that up as an example... suddenly think I might try it. Anyway, that's when you go ahead and mix a bigger batch (I'm actually drooling a little) I really need to order some flavors (have very few to play with... still using up the last of my pre-made juices) I need cinnamon for my french toast (and for my apple pie) chocolate and marshmallow (already have graham cracker) coffee, some more tobaccos and blackberry. Oh, sorry just thinking out loud

This is some solid advice, consistency and patience are areas i am working on currently. I need to approach mixing in a more methodical way while learning.

 

[jusu]

I almost forgot... do you have a mod (one that has 510 connection to use different tanks)? Get an inexpensive RDA (rebuildable dripping atomizer) There are closeout deals really cheap. Those are great for taste testing flavors. You can get pre-wound coils and will have to learn how to wick them but it's not that hard (doesn't have to be perfect for this purpose) What are you using now?

I do have a mod with a 510 and a pair of rda's, the problem is they aren't identical so the flavor is skewed in some way. I will invest in a couple of identical tanks for testing flavors and fast flavor exchanging. Coils and wicks are not a problem.

 

[vaper1960]

Doesn't really matter for quick taste testing... more just a way to judge how strong the flavor is. When I want a real idea of a flavor (mix) I use a tank and vape a little, dump the juice, vape some unflavored base, dump that, fill part way with another flavor and so on. All the dump juice I just throw into a container and vape the mix for S & G (or just toss it) With the RDA, I use cheap cotton wick and after trying a flavor, pull wick, dry burn and re-wick for each flavor. I'm certainly no expert, and might be the other extreme from you (haphazard... is that even a word?) When I find a good recipe, then I get more serious about precision. I assume you mix a batch of base first (instead of mixing each little 10 ml batch) I wanted to make a "french toast" from scratch but someone convinced me Real Flavors FT was great so i tried it... very good, but needs a bit of cinnamon (just ordered some Flavor art cinnamon ceylon (more like real cinnamon not "red hots") Advanced mixers will use 3-4 brands/flavors (for example strawberry) To get that perfect balance of sweetness, tartness, ect but I haven't come close to that level of expertise. I do learn fast

 

[Mordacai]

Cooking and e liquid formulation are not good comparisons at all, chemistry and e liquid formulation is a more apt.

And for precision then you need to mix using moles and that can be an awful lot, so as long as you achieve a acceptable level of accuracy you're fine.

 

[uthinkofsomething]

When I'm making a new recipe, precision or accuracy is important in some aspects, not others.
I see a recipe or think of something I've had or made, or I'll just see a flavoring for sale on a list that sounds tasty, and think about how I can use it with other flavors I have.
When I get a new flavor, I start with a knuckle test with the tiniest drop I can get on my hand. I will usually do a tester 10ml after looking up others' recommendations on % used and start from there, but frequently can make a 30ml single flavor or simple mix.
When mixing, I am as precise as I can be when measuring nicotine. I mix right in the bottle, nic first, then flavorings, pg, and vg. If I mismeasure (overpour) the nic at first, I can fix it without losing anything, just remove a little.
I also try to be precise with flavorings for two reasons, but not as important to me by far. Vg and pg, eh, yeah they can be a liiittle off.
If I am making a 10ml sft a few drops of flavor plus or minus won't really make much difference, but some mixers will do 5ml testers, or you are making a more complicated mix with an extra strong flavoring (more concentrated?) it could make a difference.
And the big one for me is ease of repeatability, I won't forget that I tweaked it this time or decided to do it different that other time and that's what I really liked. Don't get me wrong, that happens to me sometimes too. I do a lot of experimentation, but keep records to a degree.
If I mix for someone else, I make sure it's dead on every time if I'm mixing a flavor they have already tried.

 

[vaper1960]

Yes, keeping records is very important. And yes, once you dial in recipe, then precision is the way to go.
BTW, when counting drops, small bottle tips (small) are around 30 to 40 drops/ml glass droppers (large) are around 20 drops/ml

 

[Mordacai]

So people have access to high end scientific scales, which cost an extortionate amount. The answer is no, so all we can hope to achieve is some level of accuracy, precision is something that we can only dream about.

If you don't believe me folks please feel free to check out the differences between accuracy and precision.

 

[zoiDman]

So people have access to high end scientific scales, which cost an extortionate amount. The answer is no, so all we can hope to achieve is some level of accuracy, precision is something that we can only dream about.

If you don't believe me folks please feel free to check out the differences between accuracy and precision.

Very True.

Here is something I posted awhile back...

I completely Agree.

Many people think these Two Concepts are Interchangeable. They are not. Here is a Simple Graphic I use to Explain the Concept of Accuracy and Precision.

DIY Liquids not measuring correctly

BTW - That thread is a Good Thread to read. Because it goes into a Lot of the Gory Details that this thread has brought up.