OT threads on general

[Kent C]

There are at least three threads on 'General' that are off topic and when I point this out my post gets deleted as "OT". What a joke when the thread has nothing whatsoever to do for what the forum was designed and anyone who would read the definition of the forum and then read the thread would know that.

One would think that there would be some semblance of objectivity when enforcing rules but it appears that it just depends on who you are, not what rules actually are. Either redefine the 'general' forum or enforce the rules with some objectivity.

 

[jiff]

I actually would agree with this to a certain point. There are threads out there that are OT for that board, which means they should be moved to the correct board.

However, whether or not a thread is misplaced in a board, if the posts made in said thread are OT too, well, two wrongs don't make a right, right?

Not flaming you at all, I do agree that OT threads should be put in the right board, but simply posting to say "this is off topic" may not be the route to take.

 

[Kent C]

I actually would agree with this to a certain point. There are threads out there that are OT for that board, which means they should be moved to the correct board.

However, whether or not a thread is misplaced in a board, if the posts made in said thread are OT too, well, two wrongs don't make a right, right?

Not flaming you at all, I do agree that OT threads should be put in the right board, but simply posting to say "this is off topic" may not be the route to take.

I don't consider it a flame and I agree. And I had more to say than 'this is off topic'. I explained why and pointed to the rules for the forum. And while two wrongs don't make a right, there was only one 'wrong' on that thread after I posted (but two wrongs now, imo ;-) and I simply pointed it out with the reasons why. Leaving the thread there shows a bias, and deleting a post that points it out is merely covering up that bias. Which is why I brought it to this forum where it is appropriate to argue the case.

 

[smokum]

Have you reported the thread (1st post) and suggest where you believe it should be moved to ??

I sometimes do this with an explaination when I've come across one in case a mod hasn't happened along and noticed, and if a mod decides otherwise then so be it.

-Greg

 

[Kent C]

Have you reported the thread (1st post) and suggest where you believe it should be moved to ??

I sometimes do this with an explaination when I've come across one in case a mod hasn't happened along and noticed, and if a mod decides otherwise then so be it.

-Greg

Hey Greg. Yeah, I did all that - read my reply to jiff - pretty much covers what you're asking and I did report it originally too.

 

[jiff]

I am a little surprised this hadn't gotten mod attention yet.

 

[Timtam]

Ok. From my understanding, you are reporting threads from General E-cig discussions, posting in them saying they're off-topic, and the threads are not being moved and are also having your posts deleted from said thread?

If so, it's probably best to ask the Moderator who has deleted your post. I know I myself have had reasons for leaving threads in certain forums and members haven't agreed on why they were left there, but once I explained my reasoning they saw my point of view and agreed with it.

If you are unhappy with their response to your PM's, you can bring it higher if you would like to. Our members are the most important part of these forums, and we want to keep them as happy as possible.

 

[Kent C]

Timtam:Ok. From my understanding, you are reporting threads from General E-cig discussions, posting in them saying they're off-topic, and the threads are not being moved and are also having your posts deleted from said thread?

Timtam, that's exactly right. And I want to thank you for replying. You've always been honest and upfront with me in our discussions.

The threads were off topic according to the description of the General forum which is:

"Chat with other users. Discuss the different types of e-cigarettes. Swap stories about using them and other people's reaction."

Now I understand that the 'Chat with other users.' part could technically be about anything but each forum is a 'chat with other users' - so the parameters of the 'chat' is explained further - 'discuss different types of e-cigarettes' and stories about them....' And the threads reported had no 'discussion of different types of e-cigarettes.' ... so they were "Off Topic", iow, exactly the type of thing that the 'report' function is used by users to help out the moderators - something that I do as a responsible member to help and for which you and almost every other moderator at some time or another have thanked me for doing - many times. However, when I pointed this out in the thread - my reply was deleted as 'OT'. That was ironic since the thread was blatantly OT to begin with, and frankly it is that type of reaction that would tend to decrease the incentive from people wanting to help maintain some order in the forums.

If so, it's probably best to ask the Moderator who has deleted your post. I know I myself have had reasons for leaving threads in certain forums and members haven't agreed on why they were left there, but once I explained my reasoning they saw my point of view and agreed with it.

Well this also was part of my post. First, while I understand that there may be subjective reasons why some moderators would leave certain posts - iow, they agree with the viewpoint that is put forward in the thread, they are friends with the OP or some other judgment - but is that how this works? If a moderator agrees with you then you get a pass and if they don't you get banned or deleted?

I understand that some forums operate in that manner but I think, to SJ's credit, he really didn't run the ECF in that manner - even when, imo, he was falsely accused of it way back when. But if that is the way it will be run now, I think it might be part of a stickie that moderators can change the nature of any forum when they have threads in them that violate the stated reasons for the forum, but that when it is a topic or person with which they agree, they will allow it. That way, people will know that there are no real guidelines or rules and that all that is said is up for subjective whim or interpretation.

As long as people know that, then they might not bother with reporting anything and just let the moderators find the ones that they disagree with by themselves. Perhaps, that's a better way to run a forum. And perhaps the definition of the General forum should be changed to allow for those off topic threads with which ECF or the moderators agree and people could post any topic in any forum and just let the chips fall where they may. I'm really good with that, if that is how the people in charge want it to work, but this is something that should be outright and clear in the rules stated.

If you are unhappy with their response to your PM's, you can bring it higher if you would like to.

I didn't PM a moderator in this case - I thought the deletion showed his own personal bias and I wasn't about to attempt a rational discussion. But if some higher up wants to look at the reports I made in the general forum (the reason I posted this here in this forum), then they will see that the threads reported were clearly Off Topic and that my reply said why they were. They might discuss the issue with the moderator. Here's the thread:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...discussion/94266-challenge-support-casaa.html

I'd point out here that the issue isn't whether or not I think this is a worthy cause. But there are forums where these type of threads are appropriate. This is the same reasoning why suppliers can't post in certain threads promoting their 'causes'. That it is a non-profit or some other organization or individual, should not determine whether the rules and definition of the forum be breached. IF people frequenting the general forum were interested in a supplier or this cause or that, they could go to the appropriate forum for that, but when these off topic subjects are allowed in forums for which they are not intended, they act as 'popup ads' and banners under the guise of 'it's for our own good' (which, btw, I might think it is but it simply isn't the forum for that stuff).

I'd suggest that if a person wants to promote some thing that they think is a good idea, if they're writing an article, doing a survey, research or whatever off topic thing that they think they must use the general forum to promote, and they want to post it in the forum that gets the most hits, then they should either ask or pay ECF (the way suppliers pay ECF to promote their stuff) to make it as part of a stickie at the top of that forum rather than violating of the guidelines, definition, rules of the forum they're posting in.

Our members are the most important part of these forums, and we want to keep them as happy as possible.

Then I would suggest one of two things - either change the rules to reflect the subjectivity of moderators so we all know what to expect, or follow (and enforce) the rules as written, as we as posters are required to do at the risk of being deleted or banned when we don't. In this case, I followed the rule by reporting a violation and replying in the thread and the reply was deleted.

 

[AngusATAT]

Ok, before this gets blown even further out of proportion...

Sometimes we will bend the rules.

There have been cases when something is posted in the General forum that belongs in the Campaigning forum, and we deem it important enough to leave it there for a few days in order for members to see it. After a few days, we may move it to the Campaigning forum, after it has gotten the attention it needs. The fact is, many members do not read the Campaigning forum, and sometimes important things get passed over.

That doesn't mean that we don't appreciate the reports. We do. It helps bring things to our attention. But, like when praying to your deity of choice, sometimes the answer is... no. We may have our reasons for not moving something when someone asks, and sometimes we may not communicate that reason to the person doing the report. We've been running this ship with a skeleton crew for what seems like forever, so folks just aren't going to get an explanation for all of our actions. We wouldn't have time to get anything done around here if we tried.

Sorry if it irritates you, but we're not always going to see eye-to-eye on things.

 

[Kent C]

Ok, before this gets blown even further out of proportion...

Sometimes we will bend the rules.

There have been cases when something is posted in the General forum that belongs in the Campaigning forum, and we deem it important enough to leave it there for a few days in order for members to see it. After a few days, we may move it to the Campaigning forum, after it has gotten the attention it needs. The fact is, many members do not read the Campaigning forum, and sometimes important things get passed over.

That doesn't mean that we don't appreciate the reports. We do. It helps bring things to our attention. But, like when praying to your deity of choice, sometimes the answer is... no. We may have our reasons for not moving something when someone asks, and sometimes we may not communicate that reason to the person doing the report. We've been running this ship with a skeleton crew for what seems like forever, so folks just aren't going to get an explanation for all of our actions. We wouldn't have time to get anything done around here if we tried.

Sorry if it irritates you, but we're not always going to see eye-to-eye on things.

I'm sorry if me reporting this has struck a nerve with you, but if you think this is about us seeing eye to eye, then you missed the whole point, Angus.

I understand that you as a moderator, as you clearly explain, will make subjective choices as to what to keep and what not to - you've proven this beyond a shadow of a doubt. But you might put that in the description of the forum to inform people that: 1. they one can post some things in the general forum that don't conform to the definition for the forum and 2. for readers to expect off topic subjects from time to time, so no need to report them when they see them.

 

[Kent C]

Here's a solution if you want the visibility of the General E-smoking forum for some threads that don't comply with the definition of the forum - put it in an 'Issues' sub forum like the 'where can I get...', 'public', 'Success' and 'Travel' forums. That way anyone accessing 'General' can view that forum and then if interested can click on it. Everyone going to General could see it and the latest post, views, replies, etc. on the Issues forum.

That way it would be more upfront on the issues and political views that you want to push without bothering those that are just interested in a forum for discussing different types of e-cigarettes, etc.

If I go to a restaurant, I don't expect the owner to allow people to go around handing out political pamphlets. And I especially don't expect the waitresses and waterboys encouraging it or telling customers to stop complaining about it. I know analogies aren't perfect but it does point out why some people visit the general forum and not others.

 

[DC2]

I love you to death Kent, really I do.

But Kent, I'm gonna have to agree with keeping that thread in the General Discussion forum.
Such a move has been long overdue and sorely needed in my opinion.

I hope they never move it, and I would gladly bump it as needed.
But that's just me.


The General Discussion forum gets more views than any other.
And many people believe in the cause promoted in the thread you are talking about.


Is this more of an issue with you not agreeing with the topic?
Or are you really just stuck on a "rules are rules" thing?

I only ask because you have a valid argument either way.
But bending the rules is a daily occurrence in life.

 

[tiburonfirst]

lol, dc2, i hope you won't think i'm stalking you! but kent has a point and the numbers back him up.
both "the challenge" and "print this and get it signed" have very few views and even less posts. do me that signals you are not reaching anybody this way and the threads seem to be out of place.
i'm fairly new here but my signature is 167 on the petition since i make it a point to try and stay on top of developing issues.
but .... i would never look for info in the general discussion section! and as i wrote in another thread you might even turning people off but putting those issues in a forum where they don't expect them to be.
just my opinion and maybe something you might want to consider, as i said before i'm with you on the issues

I love you to death Kent, really I do.

But Kent, I'm gonna have to agree with keeping that thread in the General Discussion forum.
Such a move has been long overdue and sorely needed in my opinion.

I hope they never move it, and I would gladly bump it as needed.
But that's just me.


The General Discussion forum gets more views than any other.
And many people believe in the cause promoted in the thread you are talking about.


Is this more of an issue with you not agreeing with the topic?
Or are you really just stuck on a "rules are rules" thing?

I only ask because you have a valid argument either way.
But bending the rules is a daily occurrence in life.

 

[DC2]

lol, dc2, i hope you won't think i'm stalking you! but kent has a point and the numbers back him up.
both "the challenge" and "print this and get it signed" have very few views and even less posts. do me that signals you are not reaching anybody this way and the threads seem to be out of place.
i'm fairly new here but my signature is 167 on the petition since i make it a point to try and stay on top of developing issues.
but .... i would never look for info in the general discussion section! and as i wrote in another thread you might even turning people off but putting those issues in a forum where they don't expect them to be.
just my opinion and maybe something you might want to consider, as i said before i'm with you on the issues

I understand what you're saying, but the alternatives are not working for some reason.
I am open to better suggestions though.


I just think that new members are where the new signatures are going to come from.
But they don't know the Campaigning forum from the Battery Mods forum.

I've been trying to keep it more light and funny lately, but who knows.
:shrug:

 

[Kent C]

DC2:I love you to death Kent, really I do.

But Kent, I'm gonna have to agree with keeping that thread in the General Discussion forum.
Such a move has been long overdue and sorely needed in my opinion.

I hope they never move it, and I would gladly bump it as needed.
But that's just me.

Likely not just you, but if it's THAT important, it should be a stickie, rather than clutter the 'room' where people go to discuss types of ecigs. Why not put it in the new member forum? Impose your issues on them? I'll tell you why? People would leave in droves. Or never tune in, in the first place, but once you have them hooked in the general, you can push your issues on them there.

The General Discussion forum gets more views than any other.
And many people believe in the cause promoted in the thread you are talking about.

Again, make it a stickie or make them pay for space like the vendors do.


Is this more of an issue with you not agreeing with the topic?
Or are you really just stuck on a "rules are rules" thing?

IF I want to read that stuff, I go where it is appropriate. I object to it in the same way people object to ads, spyware, popups, intrusive billboards, etc. I didn't come to that forum for that. And I think that it is a rules thing and also a subjective political thing. I think that some of those 'committees' end up compromising our rights 'for our own good'. People will cave to gov't safety nazis if they think it lets them keep their ecigs that will only vape no nic ejuice.

I only ask because you have a valid argument either way.
But bending the rules is a daily occurrence in life.

When there is a forum fit for such topics there is no reason for them to intrude into other forums. And when someone points out it is off topic when it is, they shouldn't be penalized or in this case 'silenced' for it, via deletion. Doesn't the fact that someone doesn't want another opinion expressed, disturb you? Doesn't it make you wonder what their cause really is? That is something that might be even more disturbing than everything else said here. And look, I'm well aware of this being a privately owned forum and that those who own it can make the rules and they have - I'm just asking them to either follow them or change them so there isn't just an apparency of order when there really isn't when some has a notion to change something for their own bias.

 

[tiburonfirst]

I understand what you're saying, but the alternatives are not working for some reason.
I am open to better suggestions though.


I just think that new members are where the new signatures are going to come from.
But they don't know the Campaigning forum from the Battery Mods forum.

I've been trying to keep it more light and funny lately, but who knows.
:shrug:

ok, since i had to put my 2 cents in here are 2 suggestions. keep in mind though i'm neither forum-smart or tech-savvy, so don't laugh if they are dumb ideas

1.direct email to all members:

Posts: 1,327,653, Members: 37,127, Active Members: 7,407
Welcome to our newest member, Nasko

not sure if it can be done but ecf must have the email addys since i get
notified if there is a new pm waiting

2. more details concerning the petition in the notices section, that is what caught my attention. also, take away the option of closing notices that are very important to the future of e-cigs

 

[DC2]

2. more details concerning the petition in the notices section, that is what caught my attention. also, take away the option of closing notices that are very important to the future of e-cigs

I actually like what they did today.

I came onto the forum to find one "notice" with all of the important items listed and links to the appropriate threads. It took one click to get rid of it, since I had already done all those things.

But because they consolidated it, instead of having a bunch to wade through, I wouldn't mind at all if they kept putting it up again every week, or something like that.

I also kind of like the mass email idea, but I doubt they'd want to do that.
And it would probably piss off more people than what I'm doing.

 

[Kent C]

DC2:I actually like what they did today.

Me too, and duly noted from here. Won't say that this was the exact reason but if it was a part of it - thanks to all who considered it and decided.

I came onto the forum to find one "notice" with all of the important items listed and links to the appropriate threads. It took one click to get rid of it, since I had already done all those things.

I even visited a few of the links ;-)

But because they consolidated it, instead of having a bunch to wade through, I wouldn't mind at all if they kept putting it up again every week, or something like that.

I'd have no problem with that either. A rather good solution imo, if they continue to mod any new threads in general.

I also kind of like the mass email idea, but I doubt they'd want to do that.
And it would probably piss off more people than what I'm doing.

There would almost have to be an opt-out option, but for those who want to be kept informed of those type of issues, it would be more direct and would get the attention of those that don't waste so much time here like you and me They still might want to know if 'Big Brother is coming to a theater (state/locality) near you.'

All that is needed now is an apology, but I'd settle for just a 'thank you'. lol.

 

[tiburonfirst]

I even visited a few of the links ;-)

and did you sign?

But because they consolidated it, instead of having a bunch to wade through, I wouldn't mind at all if they kept putting it up again every week, or something like that.

I'd have no problem with that either. A rather good solution imo, if they continue to mod any new threads in general.

I also kind of like the mass email idea, but I doubt they'd want to do that.
And it would probably piss off more people than what I'm doing.

There would almost have to be an opt-out option, but for those who want to be kept informed of those type of issues, it would be more direct and would get the attention of those that don't waste so much time here like you and me They still might want to know if 'Big Brother is coming to a theater (state/locality) near you.'

i don't know, if those emails were were reserved for only the most important issues and happened just once or twice a year, who would mind?

All that is needed now is an apology, but I'd settle for just a 'thank you'. lol.

hoping to also speak for dc2, we are so sorry your post got deleted! it would have been much simpler to explain the reasoning behind the ot thread. but look at it that way, your frustration might have triggered some changes for the good. thank you, kent

and you never know, you might get an official version, lol!

angus, are you with us?

 

[Kent C]

tiburonfirst,

No, no, thanks, and I'm not holding my breath.