Our friends at ATR launched a massive counteroffensive

[DC2]

What has also happened over the years is the delivery devices (AVPs/mods/attys) have become way more efficient in delivering nic into the system actually forcing a lot of vapers to reduce their mg/ml because newer equipment/higher v/w/subohm was making them nic-sick at their "usual" mg/ml, but, that does not really equate to less total nicotine intake, it equates to less mg/ml to achieve what older gear could only deliver at higher levels of mg/ml.

The easy reduction in nicotine was happening long before the new and improved gear.
Some of the "newer" folks on the forum may not be aware of that, but it still remains true.

I have posted a few times regarding how the new gear is distorting what is reality.

 

[YoursTruli]

Not sure about "most" but I know I have. I started at 24mg at around 8 watts, and I was going through 3-5ml/day. Now I vape 12mg at about 25 watts, but only about 2-3ml per day. More efficient and less nicotine. I don't foresee another big reduction any time soon, though I do occasionally vape lower mg liquids.

I guess I wonder though if it might not be the same or more actual nicotine that is going into your system.
The older gear with lower vapor volume might not have been delivering much/most of that 24mg into your system where as the newer gear may be delivering the majority of that 12mg into your system. It is something I have wondered a lot about because for over 3 years I used the same equipment at the same nic level at the same amount of ml/day and when I did purchased newer equipment recently (but still vaping in the tootle puffer category/not sub) I was forced to drop both mg/ml.

 

[AndriaD]

but are most really reducing their total nicotine intake?
What has also happened over the years is the delivery devices (AVPs/Mods/attys) have become way more efficient in delivering nic into the system actually forcing a lot of vapers to reduce their mg/ml because newer equipment/higher v/w/subohm was making them nic-sick at their "usual" mg/ml, but, that does not really equate to less total nicotine intake, it equates to less mg/ml to achieve what older gear could only deliver at higher levels of mg/ml.

That's certainly part of it... but even amongst the die-hard tootle puffers, whose delivery method may change but the amount of vapor generally does not, there is still this downward trend in nicotine use, just to maintain comfort. Nobody's going, oh, I tootle puff because I have to, but that small amount of vapor just doesn't give me enough nicotine, so I need to increase it -- unless they're still fairly new to the whole process and still trying to find their own "just right" way to vape. Those who've been doing it for a while, in the same way they always have, are also decreasing their nic levels, because their bodies tell them to. That simply doesn't happen with any other substance.

Andria

 

[Lessifer]

I guess I wonder though if it might not be the same or more actual nicotine that is going into your system.
The older gear with lower vapor volume might not have been delivering much/most of that 24mg into your system where as the newer gear may be delivering the majority of that 12mg into your system. It is something I have wondered a lot about because for over 3 years I used the same equipment at the same nic level at the same amount of ml/day and when I did purchased newer equipment recently (but still vaping in the tootle puffer category/not sub) I was forced to drop both mg/ml.

It's possible, though I think it's unlikely that 1/4 the available nicotine(half the ml at half the mg) still translates to more in the bloodstream. I have no way to test my blood nicotine levels, and have no idea what my levels would have been when I started. What I do know is that I can go 8 hours without a vape if I have to, and not be homicidal even though the urge will be strong at that point. That is not something I was able to do while smoking.

 

[Racehorse]

Compromise SHOULD be limited to those who are wrong.
And we are not wrong.

I don't think we are wrong but how you said that caused me to think about the Israeli–Palestinian conflict

I don't agree with you about compromise.

 

[Racehorse]

What's really interesting to me is that although a lot of folks start at a fairly high nic level, most of them find that they need to lower that either gradually or drastically, in *some* (varying) period of time, just to stay comfortable -- as if, in the absence of all the cigarette toxins, we actually begin to *lose* tolerance to nicotine -- I don't know ANY other drug that exhibits that characteristic! Not ONE!

Andria

Nicotine is a rare sustance as it can act as both a depressant and a stimulant, which is why it seems to be pleasureable across a broad platform of people

That may explain why some think it is addictive, others think its dependency producing, maybe it is just enjoyable.

 

[mcol]

It was the Alzheimer's angle that finally got my attention. Lot of that in my family tree. Once I read that I started absorbing all the information out there about nicotine. Looking back I don't even recall hearing anything about nicotine not being the villain in the story. It's not like I heard people say nicotine wasn't the culprit and didn't take them seriously. I'm pretty sure I just never even heard it.

Since then I've had the conversation with a couple of smokers I know. Their eyes glazed over like they do when I warn them about the Greys.

The next step down the road for me might be to reconsider the dangers of second hand smoke. I've gone from sure to agnostic on that one. Then there's the question of whether smoking causes diseases. And on some distant horizon there's the virus theory.

Whatever, persuading people to question their beliefs is hard. A lot of folks are really adamant about their belief system. If it's challenged they start erecting defenses. I know I do that.

We have not seen him in years, but my husband went to school with, and we were friends
with, a scientist who eventually won a Nobel Prize. On a public forum I won't go into
any more detail than that =) Anyway. He didn't actually participate in studies about the
dangers of second hand smoke, but it was being done not far from him. While he always
stressed that cigarette smoking is THE worst thing you can do to your body, he went
into great detail how the second hand smoke studies were exaggerated in the lab and
presented very little danger to a non smoker. He stressed that the studies were done
from a smoker breathing the smoke directly into the mouth of the non smoker. And he
laughed about the claims of third hand smoke, and smoke penetrating concrete, etc.

 

[Racehorse]

And not knowing they will be lessening focus/concentration, lung capacity, resistance to colds, and increasing the probability of Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, Dementia, Rh. Arthritis, etc.

BUT... they learn soon enough :- )

I think everybody has to monitor their own body for these things. But certainly if I had any of the conditions that nicotine appears to benefit, like Alzhemer's, Parkinsons, RA, UC or Crohns, I would think twice about getting off nicotine.

While it is true that nicotine helps a myriad of conditions, that is not true of every condition. I feel better now at 0mg or 1.5mg than I did at 12mg......my sed/ESR rate actually went down in my blood profiles (taken twice in this year ) and my joints feel "looser" and less stiff. Previously, I was also showing a tad of venous insufficiency (despite a daily walking program) , but it has resolved completely since I halted the nic.

My brother had to stop vaping (which he used to quit smoking) since he has Reynaud's, and his hands aren't cold and blue anymore now that he is off nicotine for a year, for the first time in 20 years.

Lets just say that if I had a pulmonary embolism or something, I would not expect nicotine to "help" it.

 

[DC2]

I don't agree with you about compromise.

I was talking about a perfect world, hence the SHOULD disclaimer.
But since this isn't a perfect world things can get much more complicated than they should be.

 

[Kent C]

I don't think we are wrong but how you said that caused me to think about the Israeli–Palestinian conflict

There are instances where compromise can work when basic principles are agreed. When not, compromise never works.

"It is only in regard to concretes or particulars, implementing a mutually accepted basic principle, that one may compromise. For instance, one may bargain with a buyer over the price one wants to receive for one’s product, and agree on a sum somewhere between one’s demand and his offer. The mutually accepted basic principle, in such case, is the principle of trade, namely: that the buyer must pay the seller for his product. But if one wanted to be paid and the alleged buyer wanted to obtain one’s product for nothing, no compromise, agreement or discussion would be possible, only the total surrender of one or the other." Rand

The problem with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is they haven't found the basic principles on which to start. I doubt they ever will.

 

[Kent C]

I think everybody has to monitor their own body for these things. But certainly if I had any of the conditions that nicotine appears to benefit, like Alzhemer's, Parkinsons, RA, UC or Crohns, I would think twice about getting off nicotine.

While it is true that nicotine helps a myriad of conditions, that is not true of every condition. I feel better now at 0mg or 1.5mg than I did at 12mg......my sed/ESR rate actually went down in my blood profiles (taken twice in this year ) and my joints feel "looser" and less stiff. Previously, I was also showing a tad of venous insufficiency (despite a daily walking program) , but it has resolved completely since I halted the nic.

My brother had to stop vaping (which he used to quit smoking) since he has Reynaud's, and his hands aren't cold and blue anymore now that he is off nicotine for a year, for the first time in 20 years.

Lets just say that if I had a pulmonary embolism or something, I would not expect nicotine to "help" it.

I'd like to see some studies of ex-smokers contacting Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. I know that age and genetics can also be factors, and perhaps strong or weak correlations could be seen rather than causation but, in fact, the former is what much of the scientific studies rely on. If the latter, then we'd all be dead.

 

[Kent C]

I was talking about a perfect world, hence the SHOULD disclaimer.
But since this isn't a perfect world things can get much more complicated than they should be.

There should :- ) be more disclaimers - shoulds, coulds, mays, somes, few, sometimes - but people looking for something to be absolute, or attack it as being absolute, see only - is, will be, are, all, never, none, always. lol

 

[pianoguy]

I'd like to see some studies of ex-smokers contacting Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. I know that age and genetics can also be factors, and perhaps strong or weak correlations could be seen rather than causation but, in fact, the former is what much of the scientific studies rely on. If the latter, then we'd all be dead.

My brother quit smoking in his mid-50's - a few years later, he got Alzheimer's and passed away at 61 as a result. I'll never know if there was any correlation, but I'm not planning to give up nicotine anytime soon.

 

[Kent C]

My brother quit smoking in his mid-50's - a few years later, he got Alzheimer's and passed away at 61 as a result. I'll never know if there was any correlation, but I'm not planning to give up nicotine anytime soon.

Happened to two aunts - one blood related. Similar time frame. One aunt never quit, out-lived both, died last year at 92, not of cancer. "Smoking related" of course. I'm sure there are others - all 'anecdotal' which is why I'd like to see a study but as diseases go Alzheimer's isn't a priority in the health community - although it's gaining - perhaps because of more ex-smokers.... And it is something that health care money for grants wouldn't want to associate - nicotine with something good. I think there was a graph which showed a rise in cases - I posted it next to the % adult smokers graph it would have formed an X - like the obesity/smokers graph actually does.

 

[Mazinny]

I'd like to see some studies of ex-smokers contacting Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.

The first hint of nicotine’s curious benefits came from a study published in 1966 by Harold Kahn, an epidemiologist at the National Institutes of Health. Using health insurance data on 293,658 veterans who had served in the U.S. military between 1917 and 1940, Kahn found the kinds of associations between smoking and mortality that had already become well known. At any given age, cigarette smokers were 11 times as likely to have died of lung cancer as nonsmokers, and 12 times as likely to have died of emphysema. Cancers of the mouth, pharynx, esophagus, larynx — on and on. But amid the lineup of usual suspects, one oddball jumped out: Death due to Parkinson’s disease occurred at least three times as often in nonsmokers as in smokers.

Nicotine, the Wonder Drug? | DiscoverMagazine.com

 

[Kent C]

The first hint of nicotine’s curious benefits came from a study published in 1966 by Harold Kahn, an epidemiologist at the National Institutes of Health. Using health insurance data on 293,658 veterans who had served in the U.S. military between 1917 and 1940, Kahn found the kinds of associations between smoking and mortality that had already become well known. At any given age, cigarette smokers were 11 times as likely to have died of lung cancer as nonsmokers, and 12 times as likely to have died of emphysema. Cancers of the mouth, pharynx, esophagus, larynx — on and on. But amid the lineup of usual suspects, one oddball jumped out: Death due to Parkinson’s disease occurred at least three times as often in nonsmokers as in smokers.

Nicotine, the Wonder Drug? | DiscoverMagazine.com

Thanks for the reminder - I read that study (before ECF - smokers' rights stuff, and since ECF too). I'd like to see more like that. As well as for Parkinson's. I've quoted/linked some of the Rh Arthritis studies - 2 from Switzerland more recently showing the heavier the smoker, the less pain - since nicotine is also an anti-inflammatory. They're hard to find on the web - next time I'll save them out :- )

 

[Racehorse]

the only reason nicotine ever received a bad rap was because most people "got theirs" from a tobacco product, so when one was damned, the other went with it.

As I said, some of the details argued in our fight are not of vital importance to me, i.e. child proof caps, etc. because the biggest problem, and which never should have happened (although I can see why and how it did) was that vaporizing got categorized as a tobacco product. I remember their being some "relief" that it wasn't categorized as a drug delivery device which would carry even more regs.

But, this *equates* it with smoking in people's minds, (non vapers) and then the beaurocrats and regulatory orgs and anti's USE THAT TO THE MAX to launch their campaign against ecigs by magnification of an untruth.

Until somebody contests this categorization in a court of law, I don't see how this can turn out really well. Unless by some miracle, the FDA would come around to categorizing vaporizing differently, and/or at LEAST see it as a public health intervention and give some special dispensation.

It is my nature to be hopeful so I continue to be hopeful.

 

[Racehorse]

The first hint of nicotine’s curious benefits came from a study published in 1966 by Harold Kahn, an epidemiologist at the National Institutes of Health. Using health insurance data on 293,658 veterans who had served in the U.S. military between 1917 and 1940, Kahn found the kinds of associations between smoking and mortality that had already become well known. At any given age, cigarette smokers were 11 times as likely to have died of lung cancer as nonsmokers, and 12 times as likely to have died of emphysema. Cancers of the mouth, pharynx, esophagus, larynx — on and on. But amid the lineup of usual suspects, one oddball jumped out: Death due to Parkinson’s disease occurred at least three times as often in nonsmokers as in smokers.

Nicotine, the Wonder Drug? | DiscoverMagazine.com

Nicotine, coat of many colors.

 

[AndriaD]

Thanks for the reminder - I read that study (before ECF - smokers' rights stuff, and since ECF too). I'd like to see more like that. As well as for Parkinson's. I've quoted/linked some of the Rh Arthritis studies - 2 from Switzerland more recently showing the heavier the smoker, the less pain - since nicotine is also an anti-inflammatory. They're hard to find on the web - next time I'll save them out :- )

Also anabatine, one of the minor tobacco alkaloids. I'm sure that stuff is why WTA stopped my cravings, post-appendectomy.

Andria

 

[Mazinny]

the only reason nicotine ever received a bad rap was because most people "got theirs" from a tobacco product, so when one was damned, the other went with it.

As I said, some of the details argued in our fight are not of vital importance to me, i.e. child proof caps, etc. because the biggest problem, and which never should have happened (although I can see why and how it did) was that vaporizing got categorized as a tobacco product. I remember their being some "relief" that it wasn't categorized as a drug delivery device which would carry even more regs.

But, this *equates* it with smoking in people's minds, (non vapers) and then the beaurocrats and regulatory orgs and anti's USE THAT TO THE MAX to launch their campaign against ecigs by magnification of an untruth.

Until somebody contests this categorization in a court of law, I don't see how this can turn out really well. Unless by some miracle, the FDA would come around to categorizing vaporizing differently, and/or at LEAST see it as a public health intervention and give some special dispensation.

It is my nature to be hopeful so I continue to be hopeful.

From the article i linked above :

“The whole problem with nicotine is that it happens to be found in cigarettes,” she says. “People can’t disassociate the two in their minds.”

Huge mistake to name electronic cigarettes, electronic cigarettes imo. I often wonder if we would have these regulatory issues to the same extent, if it was called something else.