PCB Comment

[punchy187]

I might just be naive but all this PCB protection seems a bit over the top to me. I realize there are a ton of complete idiots out there that society feels the need to protect at times and I think that is really all it amounts to. The over-charging protection is basically pointless because any good battery charger already has that. Over-discharging protection is good to have only if you have a battery that has a manufacturer defect or your a complete idiot. Over-current again would only happen from a manufacturing defect. Under-voltage protection can easily be worked around. All you have to do is use a volt meter putting the leads on the atomizer pin for positive and the housing for negative to check the voltage. It only takes 2 seconds. I don't see how any of these things would happen because of something you or I did to cause it. Like I said I might just be naive who knows...

 

[JAY73]

Well you can call me crazy but using a batt with a pcb is kinda like warning lables on fastfood coffe, we all know it is hot but still we must protect the idiots in the world from their selfs...

 

[Rader2146]

As I said in one of your other threads: There are many other uses for Lithium Bats than just e-cigs. Protection circuits exist for a reason. Either use them, or dont. But here's by thought on your comments:

Over-discharging protection is good to have only if you have a battery that has a manufacturer defect or your a complete idiot.

Not true. It's easy to run a battery to low. What happens if you are away from a charger more than your usual amount of time. Life happens and you cant always charge on a schedule. Many non-complete idiots (ie: smart people) have run a battery to the discharge protection limit.

Over-current again would only happen from a manufacturing defect.

How do you prevent a manufacturing defect? How common are manufacturing defect? (answer: more common than anyone should leave to chance) Look at the other variables: Atty/Carto short circuit, switch short circuit, rain, dropped in water, etc, etc...

Under-voltage protection can easily be worked around. All you have to do is use a volt meter putting the leads on the atomizer pin for positive and the housing for negative to check the voltage. It only takes 2 seconds.

Unless you never leave the house, or always carry a meter with you, this is not practical. Refer to above: Being away from a charger.

I don't see how any of these things would happen because of something you or I did to cause it. Like I said I might just be naive who knows...

Even with perfect usage and prevention measures that you mention, you cannot eliminate all variables. Protection circuits are there for that exact reason...variables. When Murphy pays a visit, and he always does, I'd rather have a mod that quit working rather than a catastrophic battery failure. I'm not a member of the safety police, it's your choice, do what you want.


"I say take the warning labels of of everything and let Darwin sort it all out." - Unknown

 

[punchy187]

I think it is a good thing to have the extra protection but it is just that extra protection. Whether or not li-ion batteries are used for several different applications other than an e-cig mods or not they are still li-ion batteries so all the same pre-cautions should need to be taken regardless so if PCB protection was such a must it should be for any and all applications they are used for but it obviously is not looked at that way otherwise they wouldn't have made any li-ion batteries without PCB protection. Just my opinion but that being said I plan on using batteries with the PCB protection anyway.

 

[ChrispyCritter]

The average person doesn't have a clue how to test voltage and many of them probably wouldn't know what volt is correct. Usually they sell li-ion batteries without protection to use in packs or devices with a protection circuit.

 

[Charlz]

Stuff does happen. It can and it will and it has. Safety protection is an after though due to the fact that these things have happened.

 

[Digital-Dragon]

Nobody can be forced to use protection pcbs, of course. But every time a vaper has the unlikely happen to them, and get injured by their pv, it casts a negative light on the vaping community at large, and gives more fodder for the anti-vaping folks to throw at us... So it seems to me that we all should be trying to use, and educate others, about the safest ways to vape.

Plus, since when have complete idiots, or the non-electronically minded, been banned from vaping?

 

[Charlz]

Plus, since when have complete idiots, or the non-electronically minded, been banned from vaping?

The same amount that have been banned from reproducing!

 

[KeithB]

Well, Rader said basically everything I wanted to say, buy I'll chime in anyway.

I look at it as a risk vs. rewards situation. I'd be risking my batteries blowing up in my hand or in my face for the reward of saving a dollar or two. No thanks; I choose not to do so.

Not everyone uses a good battery charger. I use a decent one, but I'll still take the redundancy of the overcharge protection with the PCB.

Overcurrent situations can happen in a number of ways, from a dead short in your atty to a short in you mod or even just dialing up the voltage too high for your atty/carto. Ever done the math on cranking those DCCs up past 5v? Many batteries aren't suited to handle the load.

Undervoltage? Using a meter every time you think you might be getting low may work for some, for me it's just a PITA. Also, overdischarging can cause internal shorts in your battery, creating an unsafe situation that no amount of protection can handle.

I've made my decisions on what batteries to use and how to use them after reading extensively on the subject. I invite everyone to do the same.

I do object to people pooh-poohing safety features that are there for your protection. You don't have to use them, but please don't tell people they're pointless. Someone could be injured or worse because they took your advice.

And BTW, calling people idiots is against the forum rules.

 

[BuzzKilla]

My thoughts on battery protection...

They should ALWAYS be used if you are questioning its purpose.
the fact is, if you don't know 100% why it is there, you fall into the category of people that need it.
They should ALWAYS be used if you are stacking and are not properly educated in battery chemistry.
And NO these forums don't even come close to good sources of research.

I have seen way too many examples of people passing off a random post on these forums as facts when it comes to the batteries we use, and it scares the crap out of me.

We as PV users use lithium batteries, but are part of the plug and play society.
whether it is in a mod with protected circuitry or a mechanical mod with a protected battery. The majority of us need it.
i would guess at 99.9%

My biggest problem, we as PV users are using the lowest of the low in lithium chargers. The ones that are recommended on this forum are IN MY OPINION dangerous.
They pass for single cell applications, but for stacking... i dont think so... You will never be able to perfectly match cells in these chargers, and if they claim that they do, there is absolutely no way of knowing.

I would rather take my Hobby grade charger than the wall plugs that pass for chargers any day.
Quality hobby grade chargers aren't even that expensive....

the protected cells that we use claim to have overcharge protection BECAUSE the chargers themselves are the danger.

over discharge protection for me is just a precaution in maintaining cell life. if you over discharge, the battery becomes useless, and should be disposed of in a proper manner. THEY WILL NOT EXPLODE! The danger lies when you try to charge a dead battery with a cheap charger.
My charger sets off alarms if it notices that i am trying to charge a cell that is bellow a safe voltage.
But i have managed to bring a lithium cell back to life, that was just bellow 2.3V with 0% loss in capacity. Obviously i dont recommend doing this.

Lithium batteries become dangerous if they are overcharged, or when they are pushed beyond their capable current. This would be most common in a stacked configuration. where one cell is trying to charge the other within the mod. there are many variables why this could happen.
Best way to avoid this is to Build a cell pack(permanently solder them together PROPERLY) and balance charge them every few cycles, so that both cells are are not fighting with each other and work as one. (simplest way i could put it).

Take this rant for what it is... I'm not a professional, nor do i have a degree in this field.
I have however, been using Lithium cells for almost a decade and have acquired my knowledge though those that are qualified to teach it and through a lot of trial and error.

We must educate ourselves properly before more people give out more bad information...



one last thing i just came across...
That little flat wire that is on the side of a protected battery that is under the shielding, is NOT a fuse/thermal protection.
It is just lead so that the circuit protector can monitor the voltage of the cell... nothing else!

[/rant]

 

[Charlz]

I have seen way too many examples of people passing off a random post on these forums as facts when it comes to the batteries we use, and it scares the crap out of me.
[/rant]

I'm not even close to understanding. I've learned to be careful because I've made casual observations followed by a "could it be...." type of statement that others have run with even though I never even came close to presenting them as facts.

 

[BuzzKilla]

I'm not even close to understanding. I've learned to be careful because I've made casual observations followed by a "could it be...." type of statement that others have run with even though I never even came close to presenting them as facts.

My comment is more of a "we should research what we have just read" rather than accepting it, kind of rant.
The more we know the better.

I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone here. So, please don't take it that way.

I hope that anyone that just passes through can take what i've written in the way that it was intended.
Not as an attack, but more of a precaution.

I just get really heated up once i get rolling, its just part of my personality.

 

[jimbalny]

Also consider the fact that double-protecting something not only protects the idiot, but also the people the idiot happens to be around. But then are they idiots for being around an idiot?

To the OP: After rereading your post I'm starting to question whether or not you're serious, or if you're just making a statement as to certain people's potentially harmful type of mentality.

 

[Java_Az]

Price of no protection PCB Circuit = $0.00
Price of Protection PCB Circuit= $2.05
Price of Not Having a MOD not Blow up in your Face = Priceless

 

[punchy187]

Well, Rader said basically everything I wanted to say, buy I'll chime in anyway.

I look at it as a risk vs. rewards situation. I'd be risking my batteries blowing up in my hand or in my face for the reward of saving a dollar or two. No thanks; I choose not to do so.

Not everyone uses a good battery charger. I use a decent one, but I'll still take the redundancy of the overcharge protection with the PCB.

Overcurrent situations can happen in a number of ways, from a dead short in your atty to a short in you mod or even just dialing up the voltage too high for your atty/carto. Ever done the math on cranking those DCCs up past 5v? Many batteries aren't suited to handle the load.

Undervoltage? Using a meter every time you think you might be getting low may work for some, for me it's just a PITA. Also, overdischarging can cause internal shorts in your battery, creating an unsafe situation that no amount of protection can handle.

I've made my decisions on what batteries to use and how to use them after reading extensively on the subject. I invite everyone to do the same.

I do object to people pooh-poohing safety features that are there for your protection. You don't have to use them, but please don't tell people they're pointless. Someone could be injured or worse because they took your advice.

And BTW, calling people idiots is against the forum rules.

I wasn't pooh-poohing PCB protection I am just trying to get the real scoop of the deal instead of just being told overly dramatic stories to scare me. That is patronizing in my opinion. The dude at the local e-cig lounge told me when I mentioned I was making a high voltage mod that I should be so careful because people have used Li-ion batteries to blow up airplanes. That might be but not with 7.4 volts worth. So I am just trying to get the real deal about everything. Also I didn't call anyone specifically an idiot it was a generalized term which is completely different in my opinion.

 

[punchy187]

Also consider the fact that double-protecting something not only protects the idiot, but also the people the idiot happens to be around. But then are they idiots for being around an idiot?

To the OP: After rereading your post I'm starting to question whether or not you're serious, or if you're just making a statement as to certain people's potentially harmful type of mentality.

No I am being serious. My point of view is if you are making mods you should be aware of some of the basic things about Li-ion batteries. When I started making mods which wasn't very long ago I knew nothing about batteries and the more I research them the more contradictory the answers are. I am talking in general from other sources than this forum. It seems like when I read places what is considered advanced knowledge of Li-ion batteries to me a noob researcher it seems basic so it just seems like a lot of hub bub sometimes that's all.

 

[punchy187]

My thoughts on battery protection...They should ALWAYS be used if you are questioning its purpose.
the fact is, if you don't know 100% why it is there, you fall into the category of people that need it.

I know exactly what it does and why it is there and is why I asked the questions I did. It seems redundant.

I have seen way too many examples of people passing off a random post on these forums as facts when it comes to the batteries we use, and it scares the crap out of me.

That is why I ask questions like this post because I am trying to get to the real facts about the topic in question.

the protected cells that we use claim to have overcharge protection BECAUSE the chargers themselves are the danger.

I have never seen a charger that didn't have overcharge protection or constant current, constant voltage yet and I just bought one on ebay for $3.99.

over discharge protection for me is just a precaution in maintaining cell life. if you over discharge, the battery becomes useless, and should be disposed of in a proper manner. THEY WILL NOT EXPLODE! The danger lies when you try to charge a dead battery with a cheap charger. My charger sets off alarms if it notices that i am trying to charge a cell that is bellow a safe voltage. But i have managed to bring a lithium cell back to life, that was just bellow 2.3V with 0% loss in capacity. Obviously i dont recommend doing this.

lol...I just recharged a 18650 Li-ion battery that had a voltage reading of 1.83 volts and it recharged to full capacity without any problem.

Best way to avoid this is to Build a cell pack(permanently solder them together PROPERLY) and balance charge them every few cycles, so that both cells are are not fighting with each other and work as one. (simplest way i could put it).

I would recommend to balance charge them every time you charge them. Why even mess with the possibility of batteries having an unbalanced charge? Every time I take my batteries off the charger I check the voltage and if they are not within 0.01 volts of each other I don't use them in high voltage.

one last thing i just came across...That little flat wire that is on the side of a protected battery that is under the shielding, is NOT a fuse/thermal protection.
It is just lead so that the circuit protector can monitor the voltage of the cell... nothing else!

lol...your hilarious...)

 

[ChrispyCritter]

...I should be so careful because people have used Li-ion batteries to blow up airplanes. That might be but not with 7.4 volts worth...

IDK some of these batteries have quite a bit of energy stored and under the right conditions they could go off like a grenade..if you watched these venting if that happened in a sealed pipe it would blow up pretty violently. Especially if you were talking about some of the bigger batteries that are 3,000mAh...

 

[CountSmackula]

I place protected batteries in the same category as air bags, anti-lock brakes, and guns...

It's better to have it, and NOT need it, than NEED it. and not have it.

 

[ChrispyCritter]

I place protected batteries in the same category as air bags, anti-lock brakes, and guns...

It's better to have it, and NOT need it, than NEED it. and not have it.

Better safe than sorry What most people don't understand is even the little battery in a 510 slim wrapped up tight in metal without a vent if it vented would probably take part of a finger off or cause someone to lose an eye..the energy has to go somewhere...