Please Help! DUI From E-cigarettes? From Oct 2011 Last Year

[pauljoseph]

Hi Everyone:

Firstly, I wanted to thank everyone for contributing in a thread I began last year. The thread is here --> http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...87-alcohol-e-health-e-cigarettes-get-dui.html

The reason I have re-posted this is because this related to the old thread but I wanted to give an update and ask for help. If you recall - my friend was arrested for a DUI in Ontario. Based upon calculations about the quantity he drank he was below the legal limit - however, he was smoking E-cigarettes. I've been speaking with him and he has told me his lawyer and the crown attorney think this may be the cause; however, the crown is asking for some proof. This can come in the way of literature, theory, studies, another case similar to this. If it is found he is let off, and it also changes the landscape of DUI's in Ontario and likely North America.

I have been looking online and sadly a lot of what was in the previous thread by some very intellegent people about the compounds in alcohol are like reading a foreign language. The consensus of most people on here is that it can effect it. Also a thread was posted here about something similar.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ene-glycol-mistaken-alcohol-breathalyzer.html



There were a few people who had mentioned they were going to try the experiment on a breathalyzer machine to see if it is set off as exceeding the limit. An interesting thread can be found here on the subject....

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...on/257226-about-vaporizers-breathalyzers.html


I am praying that those of you witht the knowledge may be able to help and provide any literature, scientific references or tests in this thread that may be of use. This would also be very important for any of those using e-cigarettes anyway it if is valid.

I realize that there are (and I am learning as I go) many types of products/conditions that can trigger a brethalzyer. The question I would have is if some of these things (Mouth Wash, Asthma, etc etc) could be comparable to the compounds in an electric cigarette but would it actually cause a level of intoxication or would it just make the machine mistake the e-cigarette for alcohol?

Secondly, if this could possibly be tested by someone on a breathalyzer with alcohol compounds in e-cigs and the machine defaults, then my friend gets to get his life back. I was with him the entire time and I am 1000% sure he was okay. We always emphasize safety. He is spending his entire life savings to fight this, so please anything you can offer in ways of cases, literature or actual trials on a maching would help save him from a criminal record and a suspension. His court case is in early September so there's a bit of a deadline moving forward. The crown has agreed that if he can provide proof within the next few weeks they will let him off.

Thank you

 

[THE]

I picked up a DUI three months ago and there's no way I was at the level the intoxylzer says that I was.. The one they use in my state is a crooked piece of (in other states they've had to throw cases out because of this machine and one state even SUED the manufacturer for making hidden changes) and they've pretty much destroyed my life over it .... and I'll be doing some time .. I don't know how it works there, but here in the states if you can't buy a shark lawyer - you're completely

The machines they use here detect over 2000 chemicals as alcohol

"Breathalyzers don’t measure Alcohol directly. What they measure are Methyl Group compounds of which there are over
2000. Approximately 200 can appear in human breath. This can result from inhaling paint fumes, pumping gas or handling
glue or similar compounds as these chemicals may also be absorbed through the skin."

What's more- there are about 1000 ways for the stupid machine to give an erroneous reading. If by some miracle everything is working properly, and one of about 100 contributing factors don't apply to you, there's STILL a margin of error of 10-20%

http://vaporblow.com/video.htm

I have some research I can send you.. I put it together trying to prepare my own defense

I feel your pain, you know, I hate drunk drivers and want to kill them - but - that doesn't mean that they should be using a wildly inaccurate machine to wreck lives ( here in the states, they don't even have to follow our constitution in these cases - AND there is a presumption of guilt when that whacked out machine decides to you - even if like me: you pass the field sobriety test, you're clearly sober in the dash cam video - your driving was perfectly smooth and fine)

 

[SpringzVz]

I can personally attest that ecigarettes do not trip breathalyzers. I tested this idea personally with 2 different devices over a 3 month period. All tests were done with tested and working breathalyzers. All 180 tests read 0.0BAC (blood alcohol content)
The only way I could see it registering a positive in your friends case is if he had alcohol in his juice ie Vodka or some other. Even then I would hesitate to say that would have caused it either as the juice I used to test with also had an alcohol based food preservative present. In the US you can opt for a blood test and that is the only way to prove a faulty breathalyzer. Giving a little blood to save one's freedom never sounded like too much to ask here? Good luck.

 

[THE]

I can personally attest that ecigarettes do not trip breathalyzers. I tested this idea personally with 2 different devices over a 3 month period. All tests were done with tested and working breathalyzers. All 180 tests read 0.0BAC (blood alcohol content)
The only way I could see it registering a positive in your friends case is if he had alcohol in his juice ie Vodka or some other. Even then I would hesitate to say that would have caused it either as the juice I used to test with also had an alcohol based food preservative present. In the US you can opt for a blood test and that is the only way to prove a faulty breathalyzer. Giving a little blood to save one's freedom never sounded like too much to ask here? Good luck.

Who made that one? What model was it?

Not saying vapor from e-cigs will set one off, but there are definitely about 1000 reasons these things can overestimate

 

[Kemosabe]

+1 on the blood test. you have to demand it. the cops dont want you to know you can protect your freedoms by demanding a blood test, or else theyd offer it to you. you can also decline the field sobriety test. and IMO youd be better off if you did. you can clearly pass the field sobriety test, yet they will still say they saw signs of drunkeness. you cannot win unless you get a laywer. its completely rigged. say the alphabet backwards?? really?? it takes a lot of practice to do that, even when youre not drunk. OP- im sorry your friend is being harassed. i wish i had better advice, but the only thing ive got is for the future. you have to refuse refuse refuse. do not give the cops any type of "evidence" to incriminate yourself. you have to be willing to get arrested for refusing, and then go to court and fight the crap out of it. its a sad state of affairs but this is the world we live in.

I can personally attest that ecigarettes do not trip breathalyzers. I tested this idea personally with 2 different devices over a 3 month period. All tests were done with tested and working breathalyzers. All 180 tests read 0.0BAC (blood alcohol content)
The only way I could see it registering a positive in your friends case is if he had alcohol in his juice ie Vodka or some other. Even then I would hesitate to say that would have caused it either as the juice I used to test with also had an alcohol based food preservative present. In the US you can opt for a blood test and that is the only way to prove a faulty breathalyzer. Giving a little blood to save one's freedom never sounded like too much to ask here? Good luck.

 

[proggieus]

+1 on the blood test. you have to demand it. the cops dont want you to know you can protect your freedoms by demanding a blood test, or else theyd offer it to you. you can also decline the field sobriety test. and IMO youd be better off if you did. you can clearly pass the field sobriety test, yet they will still say they saw signs of drunkeness. you cannot win unless you get a laywer. its completely rigged. say the alphabet backwards?? really?? it takes a lot of practice to do that, even when youre not drunk. OP- im sorry your friend is being harassed. i wish i had better advice, but the only thing ive got is for the future. you have to refuse refuse refuse. do not give the cops any type of "evidence" to incriminate yourself. you have to be willing to get arrested for refusing, and then go to court and fight the crap out of it. its a sad state of affairs but this is the world we live in.

In most states if you decline a field sobriety test you will lose your driving privileges for a period of time. It is one of the conditions you agree to in order to have a drivers license. So while you can refuse you will lose your license for a period of time anyways.



It is also a crime to refuse to submit to the actual chemical testing wether it be from Blood,Urine or Breathalyizer. So you will be charged with refusal and most likely the DUI as well. Also many police departments are then getting warrants for a forced blood draw and getting what they need anyways.

In the long run it is almost never better to refuse the tests. It only adds to your charges and reduces the likely hood of any favorable plea deal.

 

[Kemosabe]

Well that just goes to show you how much things can vary from state to state.

A good lawyer will fight tooth and nail to have your freedoms protected. If you refuse a field sobriety test, you will get arrested. Theres no doubt about that. However, you still do get a court date. Its not like the cops take your license away right then and there. Or maybe they do in your state. But that seems incredibly unjust and unlikely. Assuming you do get a court date, your lawyer will work with you to determine a good reason why you didnt take the breathalyer, the field sobriety test, etc. If you truly believe that there are thousands of things that can give a false positive on a breathalyzer, you better bet your .... youre gonna refuse it. At the very least youd get a reduced penalty once your laywer does his job. Of course im speaking in generalities as there are millions of different unique situations out there. If you believe giving police evidence that could be false is good, then power to you. For me, i believe that cops take advantage of traffic stops and falsely incriminate motorists that dont know their rights. But thats just me.

In most states if you decline a field sobriety test you will lose your driving privileges for a period of time. It is one of the conditions you agree to in order to have a drivers license. So while you can refuse you will lose your license for a period of time anyways.



It is also a crime to refuse to submit to the actual chemical testing wether it be from Blood,Urine or Breathalyizer. So you will be charged with refusal and most likely the DUI as well. Also many police departments are then getting warrants for a forced blood draw and getting what they need anyways.

In the long run it is almost never better to refuse the tests. It only adds to your charges and reduces the likely hood of any favorable plea deal.

 

[Renrav]

Well that just goes to show you how much things can vary from state to state.
[...]
If you refuse a field sobriety test, you will get arrested. Theres no doubt about that.
[...]
For me, i believe that cops take advantage of traffic stops and falsely incriminate motorists that dont know their rights. But thats just me.

I suppose things really do vary state to state. Here in GA you can refuse all field sobriety tests, even the portable breathalyzer. You are required to take the "real" breathalyzer at the police station or a blood test or you face an automatic license suspension. I was pulled over a few months ago and agreed to do the field sobriety tests, until the officer had me stand heel to toe while she explained the "straight line heel to toe walk" rules. I realized I was swaying not because I was drunk, but just because it's an awkward way to stand(try it). I poilitely told her that I did not consent to any more of the field sobriety tests but that I would take her breathalyzer test. I passed and drove home.

Another incident in CO years ago showed my why you can refuse the roadside breathalyzers. I was pulled over, except this time I finished all the field sobriety tests, failed the breathalyzer, and was arrested for DUI. When told my options I chose to give a blood sample, thinking that I might drop below the limit in the time it took to get to the hospital and give blood. A couple of weeks later the DA called me to let me know that the blood test had come back higher than the portable breathalyzer. When I asked about this she said that the reason the portable units were inadmissible was that they can be very innaccurate.

From what I learned I will never take another field sobriety test; they are designed to make you fail. As far as the OP goes, I do not know that my e-cig had any effect on the test.

 

[SpringzVz]

In most states if you decline a field sobriety test you will lose your driving privileges for a period of time. It is one of the conditions you agree to in order to have a drivers license. So while you can refuse you will lose your license for a period of time anyways.





It is also a crime to refuse to submit to the actual chemical testing wether it be from Blood,Urine or Breathalyizer. So you will be charged with refusal and most likely the DUI as well. Also many police departments are then getting warrants for a forced blood draw and getting what they need anyways.

In the long run it is almost never better to refuse the tests. It only adds to your charges and reduces the likely hood of any favorable plea deal.

Almost all states will take your driving priviledge until the results of the blood test. No worries though if you know you will pass But if you know you won't well stay off the road! I have kids in this world I would like to see have grandchildren....

 

[pauljoseph]

Hi everyone:

I found a study showing exposure of ethanol and the effects for a BAC based upon hours, duration etc. It can be found here --> http://www.ethanolrfa.org/page/-/objects/documents/87/ethanol_tox_20001.pdf

The main question I have is what would be the ratio (say of 10% ethanol or 40 proof vodka) of inhalation per litre per minute (if one continually smokes an e-cigarette for example) and what would be the concentration of ethanol in mg/l ?

 

[Wackyjak]

I picked up a DUI three months ago and there's no way I was at the level the intoxylzer says that I was.. The one they use in my state is a crooked piece of (in other states they've had to throw cases out because of this machine and one state even SUED the manufacturer for making hidden changes) and they've pretty much destroyed my life over it .... and I'll be doing some time .. I don't know how it works there, but here in the states if you can't buy a shark lawyer - you're completely

I got a dui some years ago and this is what I did. I had a public pretender(hahah). I jumped through most of the hoops. I went to a MADD meeting once all the money was collected the meeting ended. I had to get a eval. at a state agencey to see if I needed treatment. I wrote to the head of the agencey and filed a grievence against the lady who ran my interview. They told me to get evaluated by another agencey and they would respect there decision. When I went to court my Pub pre. told me what they would give me if I plead guilty. It was above the sentencing guildline for a first offence. I told her I was pleading not guilty and would go to trial. She said if found guilty they were gonna ask for jail time (trying to boo me up). I told her to tell the pros. If found guilty I was gonna refuse all probation all comm. service I would demand all jail time instead. Let them pay to keep me I wasn't gonna fork over any more money and I was serious. Next time in court my pub pretender told me they were gonna have to call my case last. I said why? She said cause there gonna drop the charges and didn't want ppl with paid attorneys to hear it. This dui thing is a money maker for all involved except the person with the dui.
Good luck to you all.

 

[THE]

I suppose things really do vary state to state. Here in GA you can refuse all field sobriety tests, even the portable breathalyzer. You are required to take the "real" breathalyzer at the police station or a blood test or you face an automatic license suspension. I was pulled over a few months ago and agreed to do the field sobriety tests, until the officer had me stand heel to toe while she explained the "straight line heel to toe walk" rules. I realized I was swaying not because I was drunk, but just because it's an awkward way to stand(try it). I poilitely told her that I did not consent to any more of the field sobriety tests but that I would take her breathalyzer test. I passed and drove home.

Another incident in CO years ago showed my why you can refuse the roadside breathalyzers. I was pulled over, except this time I finished all the field sobriety tests, failed the breathalyzer, and was arrested for DUI. When told my options I chose to give a blood sample, thinking that I might drop below the limit in the time it took to get to the hospital and give blood. A couple of weeks later the DA called me to let me know that the blood test had come back higher than the portable breathalyzer. When I asked about this she said that the reason the portable units were inadmissible was that they can be very innaccurate.

From what I learned I will never take another field sobriety test; they are designed to make you fail. As far as the OP goes, I do not know that my e-cig had any effect on the test.

It's extremely confusing how it all works... DUI BLOG: Breathalyzer Inaccuracy: Testing During the Absorptive State to me, it is, anyway

 

[THE]

I really think that they should be required to do blood testing ...

In most states if you refuse the test you lose your drivers license for at least one year, by default. A good lawyer MAY be able to do something about it, but, usually not.

You can be subject to criminal prosecution and time in jail, as well. In Kansas there is "implied consent". Basically there is no constitutional right, to anything. I know that we have to get drunk drivers and I am all for it - but not at the cost of people who aren't doing anything wrong.

If I ran things I'd require blood tests. It'd work like this:

1. If you're suspected of being impaired, you take the tests.

A: You pass the tests = The city/state/county pays for the testing
B: You fail the tests = The city/state/county adds the cost to your fines



Being charged with DUI can wreck and destroy your life. Here I am this guy who had two drinks over the course of six hours .. singles .. and I'm not saying that I had two, I had two. But I wasn't eating or sleeping for days at a time, had a car full of chemicals and had periodontal disease at that time ....

So, of course, the officer sees me tired and half dead and thinks I've had too much alcohol. I pass the field test and my driving was very clearly perfect on the dash cam. Perfect. So I'm asking the officer about refusal because I'm scared of the machine.. He even admits I did fine on the fst.. I know I pretty much have to blow into the thing

Here are some things I DID NOT know that night
http

The machine is a slot machine and Kansas wouldn't even buy it until the manufacturer removed a feature that can make it more accurate. What's more- states have had to throw out a lot of cases because of this machine- even further one state sued the manufacturer for making a secret change to the machine- even worse the manufacturer tried to fix a defect by drilling a hole in the machine and sending it back out to service...

And then I find out that there are about 100 other contributing factors that can whack the machine out and my life is pretty much over because of it.

The state already has my driver's license. That is done and over. They claim that they didn't get my hearing request. Hell, if they did get it, I wouldn't have a chance, anyway.

Even if they decided not to punish me at all, at this point, someone like me is deeply ashamed and pretty much hates themselves for being charged with such a thing. And now- at a time when I'd like to be alone for a few months- I will have to have someone around to be my driver. Depending on someone else doesn't feel good.

Something is wrong when the guy who always walks home if he has been drinking, the guy who always puts strangers into a cab instead of letting them drive drunk, and who obviously was NOT impaired is the one being crucified. Many times I've been at places and there are people who drive drunk EVERY NIGHT and have never been caught. They say that the average person drives 87 times before being caught. I never do it and they're putting a knife right up my

It's very frustrating.

 

[Wackyjak]

When I got mine I blew in the machine. I wasn't drunk. When they took me "upstairs" the officer ( I knew him) said you didn't blow in the machine did you? I said yes. He called me a dummie and said 2/3 of the ppl that work here couldn't pass a breath test on that machine when they came to work in the morning. DUI has turned into a money maker. I remember when I was kid if a cop stopped some one drunk they would give them a ride home. I can't give any advise but if op is looking to a e-cig excuse for a DUI I doubt it will fly. Your state wants its hands and all there partners hands in your pockets. Its a shame but thats how I see it.

When I went to get a work permit I told the lady at the pay counter. "This is how were gonna do this. Your gonna say stick em up and I'm gonna hand over the cash". I said the state just learned how to do that heck don't be embarrased I've been doing it for years (j/k)
I made a big hit with the rest of the ppl in line. I was kidding on the square though.

The out come of all this is except for a glass of wine at home maybe once every 3 months, the drink I had at the bar the night I got the DUI was my last. 15+ years ago

 

[THE]

I knew they were whacky these machines- but the more I find out, the worse it gets. I can do a little time but not being able to drive is the worst part. Plus I've already been to court three times and they keep continuing it. So I can't really leave Kansas (or shouldn't) and I'm stuck not driving.

They won't even let me trade time off of the license suspension for some extra jail- because the state capitol controls all of that and they're like the hand of christ. No one can stop them. They've had my license several times because of "minor in consumption" ... which means they take your license for walking around drunk ..

Once they got a hold of it that first time, they kept taking it. TWICE - they took it and couldn't tell me why. They literally are so disorganized, they can't tell you WHY your license isn't valid sometimes. And they have all of this power, with no oversight whatever.

Pfft.

All of my lady friends live anywhere but here so who's going to drive me, you know? There was this one lady down the street-- we interviewed with each other for a rent share arrangement thing-- it went great!! Then I find out she has to go to jail .. of all things .. this sweet little young woman going to jail?! Come to find out, she did a TATTOO on some MINOR

Sigh

Soon as court FINALLY IS OVER and I DO MY TIME I can go and ride it out with one of my lady friends ANYWHERE BUT KANSAS - - but even then - - not being able to drive myself it's humiliating and disgusting

This state has some set of balls to suspend me- the only person here who CAN ACTUALLY drive.. It's not bad enough that I'm pretty sure I got screwed or that I all but hate myself and feel ashamed half to death of even being suspected of it... they have to fine me a trillion dollars, lock me up and take me out of commission in terms of transportation yet

I want to murder drunk drivers with a shotgun just like any good citizen ... but crucifying guys like me ain't the way to do it

[/rant]

 

[THE]

I don't know.
Being chauffeured around by some foxy broad for a year or two might not be so bad. . lol. . I am trying to make the best of all of this and not take it too hard .. but a guy like me doesn't settle well with not being independent .... that kind of was cute when I was younger but wow

Everything happens at once is all ... crazy year .. my woman got deathly ill and then lost her mind (literally) and after she disappeared I thought I was charlie sheen with the gambling day and night and driving all over the world and everything .. it was very frustrating because I really didn't want to see women while all that was going on .. I spent two of my three cars, moved out of our apartment and roamed around like a rabid crazy wolf howling up at the moon

I don't think I was drunk one time but I was awake 2-3 days at a time drinking pots of coffee and young person drinks (those 3 dollar ....... ones the kids all buy) in the middle of all this I had found out my father is finally going to go, my grandmother went nuts and attacked her doctor, my sister adopted my ex husband's young sister while trying to work and go to college

Me I just need to not worry about everyone else so much

 

[DPLongo22]

I can only speak for the state of CT, but here it definitely will NOT set off the breathalyzer. I had my (officer) brother bring two of his units over and we went through numerous tests. I blew 0.0's across the board. He was actually thinking I would blow high, due to the fact that my liquid is highly PG based, and was actually surprised that it did not. But, again, "0.0" tells the story.

All that is just "For what its worth".

 

[Strigoi]

I got arrested for DUI several years ago and getting a good lawyer was the best thing I did. I got to keep my license and the DA never filed charges. I did end up dropping over $5,000 for the lawyer and am very lucky they didn't press charges (they have 1 year to do so) and have it go to trial. If it went to trial, I would have been looking at $10,000-$15,000 just in lawyer fees. He kicked ... at the DMV hearing though. In CA the DMV can still take your license even if you aren't found guilty of DUI.

 

[THE]

A good lawyer would be the best option for anyone who's got the dough. For sure. There's a guy in KC I'd love to hire, but he wants $3500 flat. Which would be every dollar worth it, if I had it. I'm only looking at $1500 in fines and a few days in jail, but the state has my license no matter what at this point. I think it's that way in most states.

When I found out that one county prosecutor here refuses to even use the Intox 8000 as evidence and that other states had to throw cases out because of it AND that Kansas made them take an accuracy feature out before they bought it ... AND all of the things that can make it wildly inaccurate .. I got pretty upset .. I have the dashcam footage and my driving is excellent and this machine is a slot machine (literally)

But what can you do

 

[rolygate]

The variable system in different States seems bizarre. In the UK you can't be convicted after a breathalyzer test, it isn't considered accurate. You have to take it though as there is no other form of sobriety test, if you refuse it's an automatic conviction. If you fail the breathalyzer, you get taken in.

At the station you get a choice of a large, complex breath test machine the size of a filing cabinet, or a blood test - you have to take either or get a conviction and lose your license. Apparently the machine and the blood test give the same result. Some people can't supply enough air in an exhale, for the machine, and have to take the blood test.

It's possible that some types of e-liquids may give a false positive on some types of breathalyser, no real research has been done on this. From the posts above, the machines tested did not show any positive reading, though there might be flaky machines out there. In any case you should get a blood test if the breathalyser shows positive but you haven't been drinking (or drinking enough to give a positive). A recent drink, or a recent vape with an alcohol-containing e-liquid, would leave a residue in the mouth that could trigger some form of response in a machine.

I seem to remember seeing an e-cigarette vapor test that showed 13% ethanol, which is an astoundingly high percentage. It is likely to have been a faulty analysis since about 99% of the ones weve seen clearly have errors, vapor GC-MS tests have been so poorly conducted that no results can be accepted at face value. They even run them for 50 puffs with the ecig inverted, for example.

Even so it does give cause for concern that some e-liquids may have significant alcohol content.