Power in Numbers.....New York Times Article

[Vocalek]

Moved to Media and General News. Let's post 'em in the proper forum please.

Posting this story 3 times, or 5 times or 100 times in the Media and General News amounts to "preaching to the choir."

A couple of people have attempted to bring this issue (your ability to vape is in danger and you'd better start paying attention and take some action) to the attention of the masses by posting a link to the exemplar story at least twice in the General forum, and the post keeps getting moved.

Here's an idea folks, to escape the censorship of the mods.

DO NOT include a link to a news story. That's the kiss of death. The mods see a link to a news story and their alarm bells go off: "Oh, this post is about a news story (i.e. "media), so it belongs in the Media and General News forum."

If you want to include a link in your post, include an internal (ECF) link to one of the ongoing threads here in the Media and General News story. Example:

Hey folks, if we want to prevent the government from making it expensive to buy e-cigarettes and from enacting laws that treat vaping just like smoking, we need to band together. There is power in numbers. See this post:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/media-general-news/490283-army-vapers.html

 

[Orb Skewer]

Couldn't agree more Elaine,
Give it a bloody rest Retired1-what are you all about ?

 

[DrMA]

To our EU brethren: That's how it's done! Very nice!

 

[Kent C]

Moved to Media and General News. Let's post 'em in the proper forum please.

Happen to agree with you on this one. For people still trying to get general info on the hardware and eliquid, nothing's worse than some people using the general forum for their own political/activist "blog". Some people will get around to coming over here, but on their own interest, not by some 'ad' someone puts in the most frequented forum. In fact, it should be an infraction if done repeatedly, imo.

 

[rothenbj]

Happen to agree with you on this one. For people still trying to get general info on the hardware and eliquid, nothing's worse than some people using the general forum for their own political/activist "blog". Some people will get around to coming over here, but on their own interest, not by some 'ad' someone puts in the most frequented forum. In fact, it should be an infraction if done repeatedly, imo.

Yes, why should you interrupt a very important discussion on the latest mod or tank with a political message about the attempts to make those mods and tanks illegal. Who wants to be bothered with the war against why ECF even exists?

I find it amusing (NOT) that they made a point of identifying TW as the source of the attack against legislation by an army of unpaid vapers. Yet they make no mention of anything about who funds the anti-tobacco crowd.

 

[Kent C]

Yes, why should you interrupt a very important discussion on the latest mod or tank with a political message about the attempts to make those mods and tanks illegal.

I agree....

 

[Fulgurant]

Yes, why should you interrupt a very important discussion on the latest mod or tank with a political message about the attempts to make those mods and tanks illegal. Who wants to be bothered with the war against why ECF even exists?

The thing is, I might actually agree with the argument put forth by your first (tongue-in-cheek) statement under different circumstances. It's a reasonable enough premise that certain forums should cater to PV talk, and others should cater to political talk.

But in the case of the general forum, I believe that the division drawn between e-cig-flavored politics and everything else is wholly arbitrary. The forum is called "General E-Cigarette Discussion." On a daily basis, that forum sees topics ranging from the technical to the frivolous with nary a peep from the authorities. Almost all of those topics are, to a greater or lesser extent, redundant -- and yet anything that relates to the state of e-cigs in media and politics is near-instantly spirited away to low traffic areas where the people most likely to learn something from them aren't prone to see it.

Frankly I think we could do with fewer forums period, but that's a different discussion.

 

[Vocalek]

But in the case of the general forum, I believe that the division drawn between e-cig-flavored politics and everything else is wholly arbitrary. The forum is called "General E-Cigarette Discussion." On a daily basis, that forum sees topics ranging from the technical to the frivolous with nary a peep from the authorities. Almost all of those topics are, to a greater or lesser extent, redundant -- and yet anything that relates to the state of e-cigs in media and politics is near-instantly spirited away to low traffic areas where the people most likely to learn something from them aren't prone to see it.

Many of us who frequent the news forums have been involved in this world for 4 or more years. Those who are relatively new have no idea that in 2009, the FDA was stopping shipments coming in from China (or that China was the only place the products were being made in 2009). They don't know about the Tobacco Act. They don't know about the deeming regulation. They are surprised as hell when they learn that their little community has decided that vapor is smoke and vaping is smoking. By then, it's too late to do anything about it in their little community.

I can't tell you how shocked I was when I found out that a vendor was dedicating a portion of his profits to the American Lung Association. I applaud his intentions, but he was totally oblivious to the fact that the American Lung Association lobbyists have been going around to state and local lawmakers and telling them that e-cigarette use is the same thing as smoking and should be restricted and taxed.

So we DO need a way to spread the word to the newcomers and to the not so new members who have no idea of the very real threats we face. My suggestion, to link to an existing discussion thread in the news forum rather than link directly to a news item, was a way to accomplish the enlightenment without wasting much space in the General forum.

Remember Ben Franklin? He said, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

 

[Spazmelda]

I wonder if we could do a thread in the general section called something like "daily news roundup" and post links to 2-3 of the most relevant threads in media and general news? It could help increase traffic over here, but would keep it all in one thread. I'd be willing to do that if the mods gave it an okay.

 

[Ref Minor]

Maybe they could give people a whole subforum to talk politics, just an idea. They might also post political story tickers on a weekly basis, that might help, now where can I find a site that does that kind of thing.

 

[Anjaffm]

YES. That was us. The vapers from Europe. That is what WE accomplished. All of us - together.

Of course the article also attempts to paint us (including myself, a very real person) as "Astroturfs" = paid industry shills. Yeah... I read about the same lies, issued by some "assistant" (!!!) in the EU. And this crap was plastered all over the media.

Paid industry shills indeed! - We all know just WHO are the REAL paid industry shills. And that this oh-so-concerned Ms McAvan is one of them.

But I do appreciate the Times also giving a place to the truth:

Individual vapers say their fury had nothing to do with commercial interests. “Of course we are not just AstroTurfers,” said Luc Van Daele, a Belgian user who has been active in antiregulation protests, using a term that describes phony consumer groups set up by industry.

Chris Davies, a British member of the European Parliament and an outspoken opponent of proposed regulation, said he received hundreds of messages from e-cigarette users pleading against heavier regulation. His conclusion, he said, was that “700,000 Europeans die each year from tobacco and nobody, as far as I know, has died from e-cigs.”

What had been a clear majority in favor of tight regulation melted away. In early October, Frédérique Ries, a Belgian member of the European Parliament and a political ally of Mr. Davies, drafted an amendment to scrap a clause requiring medicinal regulation for e-cigarettes. Ms. Ries said she had never met a lobbyist for the e-cigarette industry but had been swayed by the arguments of vapers. “They are not fake,” she said.

That is correct. We are not fake. On the contrary: We are the people!

Oh, and the Times conveniently forgot to mention one petition that received 27,000 signatures - and that was NOT started by an e-cig company. What a sad little oversight.... NOT.

So, you guys and gals in the States:
How about joining CASAA and getting in on the action? Heck, I joined, and I am from Germany
CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association

We are the people! What are you waiting for?

 

[meanckz]

YES. That was us. The vapers from Europe. That is what WE accomplished. All of us - together.

Of course the article also attempts to paint us (including myself, a very real person) as "Astroturfs" = paid industry shills. Yeah... I read about the same lies, issued by some "assistant" (!!!) in the EU. And this crap was plastered all over the media.

Paid industry shills indeed! - We all know just WHO are the REAL paid industry shills. And that this oh-so-concerned Ms McAvan is one of them.

But I do appreciate the Times also giving a place to the truth:



That is correct. We are not fake. On the contrary: We are the people!

Oh, and the Times conveniently forgot to mention one petition that received 27,000 signatures - and that was NOT started by an e-cig company. What a sad little oversight.... NOT.

So, you guys and gals in the States:
How about joining CASAA and getting in on the action? Heck, I joined, and I am from Germany
CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association

We are the people! What are you waiting for?

at least in europe the voices of the voters are still heard (even if they have to scream!) and not drowned out and suppressed by the furor of the politicians themselves.

 

[Anjaffm]

Oh we screamed all right
We are the people! And we are the ones who are PAYING those self-absorbed and self-serving politicians - who are supposed to (!) work for US. Not the other way around.

Some of those Members of European Parliament may get some... uhm... little presents... from Big Pharma, yeah. But their paychecks are still coming from us.

And I am not talking about "voters". Heck many EU politicians are not even elected. They are appointed beaurocrats. - I am talking about "we the people" signing - and delivering - petitions, writing e-mails, writing letters and even sending big huge folders of studies on vaping to those who loudly (and wrongfully) claimed "there are no studies". I am talking about taking action to ensure that our rights as human beings are not trampled underfoot to serve some greedy industry.

 

[wv2win]

Maybe they could give people a whole subforum to talk politics, just an idea. They might also post political story tickers on a weekly basis, that might help, now where can I find a site that does that kind of thing.

I'm afraid that might just end up being the same as the Media forum. I think Fulgurant had a good point. It is called "General E-cigarette" forum and that issues threatening the existence of vaping need the widest possible dissemination on ECF.

Based on the lack of involvement on ECF, in protecting our ability to vape as we do today, I have concerns that American vapers could not duplicate the success of our European brothers and sisters. I hope I am wrong, but based on more of the comments I am seeing on ECF, it appears that many American vapers view vaping as no different than smoking. It's baffling to me.

 

[Orb Skewer]

The thing is, I might actually agree with the argument put forth by your first (tongue-in-cheek) statement under different circumstances. It's a reasonable enough premise that certain forums should cater to PV talk, and others should cater to political talk.

But in the case of the general forum, I believe that the division drawn between e-cig-flavored politics and everything else is wholly arbitrary. The forum is called "General E-Cigarette Discussion." On a daily basis, that forum sees topics ranging from the technical to the frivolous with nary a peep from the authorities. Almost all of those topics are, to a greater or lesser extent, redundant -- and yet anything that relates to the state of e-cigs in media and politics is near-instantly spirited away to low traffic areas where the people most likely to learn something from them aren't prone to see it.

Frankly I think we could do with fewer forums period, but that's a different discussion.

A few points very eloquently put.
I have no issue with where 'Important' News, Articles, snippets, Blogs etc are placed eventualy i.e. 'Media and General News'-but the 'timing' could be a little more 'considered',

My suggestion is they are left to 'air' and then moved after 24 hours.

As Fulgurant pointed out, threads and posts in the 'General' section are quickly sunk by "What way do you prefer the swirl pattern on your drip tip-clockwise or anti clockwise"-which I note will be important to some, but really, where is the harm in posting a News item there also-and giving it time to get some wider 'viewing' ? and more importantly, more rallying support.

 

[DC2]

Over the years I have started many threads in the General E-Smoking subforum trying to raise awareness.
In those threads I talk about the importance of visiting the Legislative News and Media and General News subforums.

It seems to work as those threads don't get moved.

However, I don't think very many vapers really care enough until it hits home for them.
Most of the people I've seen become active over the years are those that had a ban of their own to fight.

It's a lot easier to fight when there is something tangible to fight against, and right now it's like trying to fight a ghost.
But when the deeming regulations are finally proposed, and if they are damaging to us, I am very confident we will stand up and fight.

 

[Orb Skewer]

Over the years I have started many threads in the General E-Smoking subforum trying to raise awareness.
In those threads I talk about the importance of visiting the Legislative News and Media and General News subforums.

It seems to work as those threads don't get moved.

However, I don't think very many vapers really care enough until it hits home for them.
Most of the people I've seen become active over the years are those that had a ban of their own to fight.

It's a lot easier to fight when there is something tangible to fight against, and right now it's like trying to fight a ghost.
But when the deeming regulations are finally proposed, and if they are damaging to us, I am very confident we will stand up and fight.

When the going gets tough-the tough get going.
Observing the 2009 FDA, and the recent EU 'threats' when that rope needs pulled it gets pulled, I have no doubt that there will be a sudden 'swell' in the US when the time comes re 'deeming', of course the battle on both sides of the pond has only begun.

 

[Anjaffm]

I'm afraid that might just end up being the same as the Media forum. I think Fulgurant had a good point. It is called "General E-cigarette" forum and that issues threatening the existence of vaping need the widest possible dissemination on ECF.

Based on the lack of involvement on ECF, in protecting our ability to vape as we do today, I have concerns that American vapers could not duplicate the success of our European brothers and sisters. I hope I am wrong, but based on more of the comments I am seeing on ECF, it appears that many American vapers view vaping as no different than smoking. It's baffling to me.

thank you, well said

I hope I am wrong, but based on more of the comments I am seeing on ECF, it appears that many American vapers view vaping as no different than smoking. It's baffling to me.

Thank you very much for mentioning this.
No offense intended - I love this forum! But yes, to me, a European vaper from a very active and very vocal community, this is baffling as well.

And I do agree that new vapers should be given the information, should be given the chance to become active, to do something for the good of all of us. I firmly believe that many of them just do not know the facts. And the dangers.

And looking at the great comments under that unspeakable "article" claiming complete horse manure about "kids (allegedly!) drinking yummy tasting e-liquid to get high" (duh .. ) - I see that American vapers can be very active indeed

@orb skewer:

of course the battle on both sides of the pond has only begun.

I know. There is still the European Commission to be consulted. And we in Germany are not relaxing our vigilance for one minute. Same in the UK, I guess.
Because those ANTZ in the European Parliament - and their paying masters, Big Pharma - would love to take our freedom as human beings, for a fistful of dollars.