It would be an awful irony if all that remains available after this all shakes out is high nic, with extra chemicals, and only blackmarket access to our simple little PG/VG + flavors with a choice of nic strength. 
In depth NY Times article 10-26-13
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It would be an awful irony if all that remains available after this all shakes out is high nic, with extra chemicals, and only blackmarket access to our simple little PG/VG + flavors with a choice of nic strength.
This is my fear. I dont see it being to far fetched. Everything that I have read on the FDA's current position and their track record points to favoring BT. I strongly feel that the FDA's regulations will hand this market over to BT. Lets hope not.
There will still be quite a bit left over for BP...it's just the consumers who are likely to get the short end of the stick.
People use BP products to quit smoking. It doesn't work. They go back to smoking. They try to quit again. Repeat as necessary.
People use BP products to quit smoking. It doesn't work. They go back to smoking. They try to quit again. Repeat as necessary.
I figured BT would start this crap and didn't figure they'd do it too soon or out in the open.
Live and learn.
Freebase nicotine - SourceWatch
njoy isn't content with having consumers of their product, apparently they seek a base of more hard core addicts to rely on.
If they're even contemplating doing this, their name is mud in my world. This offends me more than the crap the ANTZ are pulling.
[/rant]
Thanks for highlighting that, I might have missed it otherwise.
Virtually all nicotine in e-liquids is in fact freebase nicotine. Always has been. In cigarettes, much of the nicotine is in the "salt" form. Unless you are vaping a very sour acidified juice, the nicotine you are vaping is the "freebase" form, simply meaning it is not protonated as a salt, as it it primarily is in natural tobacco.
Absorption rates are a bit complicated, as there are competing properties governing overall absorption. With smoking, most of the smoke gets to the lungs. Salt form penetrates better than freebase form, but is absorbed slower. freebase form is absorbed faster. With oral and throat absorption, which is what vaping primarily gives, overall absorption is slower than with smoking (lung absorption is faster in general), but the salt form will be slower than the freebase form. To equate "freebase" with higher addiction in vaping is rather strange to me, since we have pretty much ONLY been vaping freebase, and people tends to lower their nic levels naturally over time.
The salt form does not lend itself well to vaping, since the salt form has a very high boiling point. So from a chemistry standpoint, the freebase form is far better since it vaporizes easily. There have been new inhalers (not ecigs) that use a propellent and nicotine pyruvate salt, because the salt particles penetrate deeper into the lungs. I don't think that product got to the retail level, however, as I have not seen anything about it is a few years. It was created by Star, which also made tobacco dissolvables.
I know of no e-juices that are not freebase nicotine primarily, although some flavors can turn a bit of the nicotine into salt form. This has ZERO to do with addictiveness, and everything to do with the form that can be boiled and inhaled as a vapor. The salt problem in natural tobacco was evidently solved to an extent by PM by adding a base to the tobacco, just turning the salt form back into the freebase form. Totally moot issue with vaping, since it is all freebase in the first place.
There is a school of thought that much of smoking addiciton comes from the other psychoactive alkaloids in tobacco, not just nicotine. If ecigs are deemed tobacco products, which does have advantages over a drug-device category, I wonder if this will simply allow BT to bring more other tobacco compounds into their products. Still safer than smoking, but addiction properties might be tweaked more, too.
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Then often the media spins it (stirs up the pot) based on their left/right bias.
The news and media today reminds me of drama based Reality TV shows ...
No drama ... the public ain't interested ... Good news is No News.
I figured BT would start this crap and didn't figure they'd do it too soon or out in the open.
Live and learn.
Freebase nicotine - SourceWatch
NJOY isn't content with having consumers of their product, apparently they seek a base of more hard core addicts to rely on.
If they're even contemplating doing this, their name is mud in my world. This offends me more than the crap the ANTZ are pulling.
[/rant]
Thanks for highlighting that, I might have missed it otherwise.
There is no need to put extra chemicals into the liquid. I think that the NJOY people realized that the number of smokers who were able to make a complete switch to their original product that maxed out at 18 mg/ml was too small. Rather than increasing the power in the hardware, they decided to offer a higher nicotine concentration in their new disposable products. The new products are really only giving consumers what they thought they were getting in the first place.
The cig-alike models all have small capacity cartridges. The original rechargeable NJOY NPRO has a cartridge that holds about 1/3 ml of liquid. So a cartridge labeled as 18 mg/ml contains only about 6 mg total of nicotine. The new disposables King products contain 30 (Gold) and 45 (Red) mg/ml concentration. But since the cartridge is only about 1/3 ml, consumers are getting only 10 to 15 mg total of nicotine. You would get more than that from a pack of smokes.
Am I being too paranoid. Is it not likely that the E-cig disposables from BT will just replace existing cigs (over time of course). Why couldnt they just corner the market, like they have with cigs, and make it impossible for anyone else to get into or survive the market. Meaning we will have to buy from them and deal with whatever they decide to add into the E-Juice. Of course I could stock up and be fine but what about the people that dont have that luxury or havent been introduced to E-cigs yet.... will they just have to take BT's word that their products are safe? Will they have any other options? Please tell me if I am being delusional 
0.15 millilitres of Propylene glycol
0.05 millilitres of vegetable glycerine
0.10 millilitres of (45mg/mil) nicotine suspension in propylene glycol
1 x small plastic tube (imported from China)
1 x 80 mAh Li ion battery (imported from China)
1 x small plastic presentation box (imported from China)
How much ?
0.05 millilitres of vegetable glycerine
0.10 millilitres of (45mg/mil) nicotine suspension in propylene glycol
1 x small plastic tube (imported from China)
1 x 80 mAh Li ion battery (imported from China)
1 x small plastic presentation box (imported from China)
How much ?
IMO the article was not all bad ... plus, I like the fact it has appeared in one of the largest newspaper markets in the US "The New York Times"
I saw a news program the other night about a new "Vaporium" that opened in Manhattan ... IMO, a step forward
I saw a news program the other night about a new "Vaporium" that opened in Manhattan ... IMO, a step forward
This is a post I put on another thread, but think it is also appropriate here
Is seems that "Big Business" is going at this in a big business way. develop a market, get loyalty from your clients, deposit money at bank.
I just don't see that kind of market with e-cigs, I smoked the same brand of analogs for 25 years. With e-cigs I'm in a constant state of experimentation, and enjoying it, and tons of people doing the same thing.
Everyone starts with 510 blu's etc. but don't stay there very long. As they learn more and blog, facepage etc they move onto other things that work better, are cheaper. They don't care that they don't look like cigs.
The long term vapor business is not going to be a modified cigs business, and I kept seeing that model being used all the time.
IMHO the vapor business will not be a business that is easily corralled, it is volatile changes all the time and it is made up of a bunch of people that just got their get out of jail free card from the tobacco companies. Don't see them getting locked up in a brand or system any time soon.
The big exception to this is the nic liquid, vapers are dependent on the availability nic big time, but that is not a brand market.
Is seems that "Big Business" is going at this in a big business way. develop a market, get loyalty from your clients, deposit money at bank.
I just don't see that kind of market with e-cigs, I smoked the same brand of analogs for 25 years. With e-cigs I'm in a constant state of experimentation, and enjoying it, and tons of people doing the same thing.
Everyone starts with 510 blu's etc. but don't stay there very long. As they learn more and blog, facepage etc they move onto other things that work better, are cheaper. They don't care that they don't look like cigs.
The long term vapor business is not going to be a modified cigs business, and I kept seeing that model being used all the time.
IMHO the vapor business will not be a business that is easily corralled, it is volatile changes all the time and it is made up of a bunch of people that just got their get out of jail free card from the tobacco companies. Don't see them getting locked up in a brand or system any time soon.
The big exception to this is the nic liquid, vapers are dependent on the availability nic big time, but that is not a brand market.
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They keep peddling the "we have no data" nonsense ...
The truth is we have data and the data support the our position that ecigs are 99%+ less harmful than tobacco, that ecigs do help smokers quit or significantly reduce their tobacco use, and that the notion of "second hand" exposure does not apply to vaping.
The truth is we have data and the data support the our position that ecigs are 99%+ less harmful than tobacco, that ecigs do help smokers quit or significantly reduce their tobacco use, and that the notion of "second hand" exposure does not apply to vaping.
Am I being too paranoid. Is it not likely that the E-cig disposables from BT will just replace existing cigs (over time of course). Why couldnt they just corner the market, like they have with cigs, and make it impossible for anyone else to get into or survive the market. Meaning we will have to buy from them and deal with whatever they decide to add into the E-Juice. Of course I could stock up and be fine but what about the people that dont have that luxury or havent been introduced to E-cigs yet.... will they just have to take BT's word that their products are safe? Will they have any other options? Please tell me if I am being delusional
Well, we do have this organization known as the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (aka "FDA"). That agency has been given the authority to regulate manufactured cigarettes, roll-your-own tobacco/rolling papers/filters, and chewing tobacco. There is also a provision that allows the FDA to "deem" any product that is "made of or derived from tobacco" to be henceforth included within the category of products to be regulated under the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act. The FDA has already sent a notice to the Office of Management and Budget stating that it intends to issue this deeming announcement.
So, once the FDA has authority to regulate e-cigarettes, our biggest fear is NOT what companies will add to the liquids with the evil intent of making you their slave.
Our biggest fear is that the FDA will over-regulate e-cigarette liquid. If the FDA decides that the manufacturing process must meet the high standards set for making pharmaceutical products, then you will see thousands of small, independent vendors going out of business. They won't be able to afford the high costs involved. This would have the effect of turning the entire market over to the tobacco companies--the only contenders rich enough to deal with tight regulations. But, of course, they will be prohibited from putting anything nasty into the liquid. However, the same purpose could be accomplished by specifying manufacturing standards such as those imposed on food, which are not as stringent (or expensive to implement) as those imposed on drugs.
I agree, it would be worst case senario if the FDA over-regulates. Just to ease my mind, why wouldnt they be able to add any additives to E-juice if they were able to do so with cigarettes?
The government has been regulating what companies can put into tobacco cigarettes since the previous century--long before the tobacco act was passed. http://quitsmoking.about.com/cs/nicotineinhaler/a/cigingredients.htm
The list of permissible chemicals are added for aroma and flavor purposes. Most of the harmful chemicals in smoke don't come from chemicals in the unburned tobacco--they are created by the process of combustion. Inhaling smoke from burning any organic material is harmful, regardless of how benign the organic material was before combustion.
The popularity of e-cigarettes is growing by leaps and bounds, and the potential market is 43 million users in the US. Most of that market remains untapped. Why would a Board of Directors of a major corporation permit management to put the entire corporation at risk by pulling an underhanded stunt with chemical additives?
And e-cigarettes don't need to be "addictive" to continue in popularity and market growth. Many former smokers worked their way down to zero nicotine and still enjoy using nicotine-free vapor in a variety of flavors.
Frankly, from what I have seen during the past 5 years, I am much more distrustful of the motives of government agency employees and tobacco control folks than I am of tobacco company employees. The former group keeps making noises about how tobacco companies lied 30 years ago, but lately, it isn't tobacco company employees that I have caught in lies. It's the ANTZ.
Yes, in lots of ways eliquid is closer to wine or beer than tobacco. It's apeal is to a market that enjoys variety and it producers are closer to craft brewers than cigarette manufactures. Room for both the big producer and the craft producer under alcohol regs. Why not adopt something similar for e juice? Oh yea vested interest and lazy regulators.
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