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PRELIMINARY Bench Test Results: Sony VTC5D 18650...around 25A, 2700mAh-2800mAh, beats VTC5A

Discussion in 'Batteries and Chargers' started by Mooch, Apr 7, 2018.

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  1. Mooch

    Mooch Electron Wrangler Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 13, 2015
    These tests below only note the estimated ratings for these batteries at the time I tested them. Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, LG, Panasonic, or Sanyo can change at any time! This is one of the hazards of using “rewrapped” or batteries from other manufacturers so carefully research any battery you are considering using before purchasing.

    Misusing or mishandling lithium-ion batteries can pose a SERIOUS RISK of personal injury or property damage. They are not meant to be used outside of a protected battery pack. Never exceed the battery’s continuous current rating and keep the plastic wrap and top insulating ring in perfect condition.

    Testing batteries at their limits is dangerous and should never, ever, be attempted by anyone who has not thoroughly studied the dangers involved, understands the risks, has the proper equipment, and takes all appropriate safety precautions.

    If the battery has only one current rating number, or if it only says "max", then I have to assume the battery is rated at that current level for any type of discharge, including continuous.

    63187318-F3EC-4858-AD7E-2AC0E4E15C95.jpeg FF97BBF1-993D-468A-9E23-F90549935CCE.jpeg DE968927-5FB7-44DC-A2F2-94809EA63173.jpeg 780139ED-225D-466C-A537-23D5A4E2494E.jpeg


    Bottom Line
    I tested two samples of this cell which has been popping up in Asia. I haven’t been able to get the datasheet but preliminary testing shows it’s probably rated at about 25A continuous and around 2700mAh-2800mAh. It hits harder and lasts longer than the VTC5A and its performance is about equal to that of the incredible VTC6A.

    There is a Vapcell discharge graph showing this cell delivering a bit over 2900mAh but my two cells delivered 2742mAh and 2796mAh at 0.5A down to 2.5V. The Vapcell test used a 1A discharge for their test and that slight warming, versus the lower rate 0.5A rate used by me, can lower the internal resistance which allows the cell to run at a slightly higher voltage which means it can run for longer before hitting 2.5V.

    [EDIT] A Dyson datasheet lists them at 2600mAh. I do not know if that is Sony’s rating or if Dyson is being conservative to increase cycle life.[/EDIT]

    I do not know if this is why the Vapcell test shows this cell delivering over 2900mAh but the 1A discharge rate or a difference between the grade of the cells I had and what they had might explain it.

    I do not know if the ones I tested are early production or pre-production samples so my ratings are just preliminary estimates for now. I will be retesting this cell when they become more available and will adjust the ratings if necessary then. I will also post their internal resistance and watt-hour specs then.

    Two cells were donated for the purposes of testing by Vapcell (www.vapcelltech.com). Thank you!


    Continuous Current Discharge Graphs
    1DBAA034-34A2-4A55-AABA-C1756FD5BF5A.jpeg


    Ratings Graphic
    81A32375-3A6E-431B-AB29-CF230D0015B1.jpeg


    Comparison to VTC5A and VTC6A
    41E94E4C-614F-4757-8E4B-E97EE6CAE312.jpeg

    To see how other cells have tested check out this link: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
     
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  2. Heartsdelight

    Heartsdelight Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Nov 10, 2015
    Thanks Mooch looks like we have something to look forward to.
     
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  3. untar

    untar Ultra Member

    Feb 7, 2018
    Germany
    Don't hold your breath, it may be a long time until this is accessible to vapers, if ever (Mooch explained why in a recent YT vid).
     
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  4. stols001

    stols001 Mistress of the Dark Nicotinic Arts Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 30, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    Thanks for the testing, Mooch :) As always :)

    Anna
     
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  5. sonicbomb

    sonicbomb Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 17, 2015
    1187 Hunterwasser
    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Robin Becker

    Robin Becker Senior Member

    Feb 3, 2018
    Berlin
    Just called Enerdan in Berlin today to ask them about this battery. Was told, that this battery is a modification of the VTC5A, done by Murata for a known manufacturer of vaccum cleaner. The last letter refers to the name of the manufacturer (so you can start guessing, or just read, what Mooch refered to :w00t:).
     
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  7. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Apr 8, 2012
    Ridgeway, Ohio
    Why not just call a spade a spade? No need for riddles.

    [​IMG]

    It's my guess that all of the top of the line 18650 batteries had their inspiration as a result of a particular car or power tool manufacturer requesting the battery manufacturer design a new battery for their particular needs. Our vaping community benefits a year or two later as those batteries become available to second hand suppliers.
     
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  8. Derek Cross

    Derek Cross Senior Member ECF Veteran

    May 16, 2015
    This is why I love these threads and this forum in general. So much to learn.

    Mooch thanks again for testing yet another great performing cell that is sure to hurt my pockets in the future (I hope!)
     
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  9. Robin Becker

    Robin Becker Senior Member

    Feb 3, 2018
    Berlin
    I am a bit confused, because usually if you modify a battery in order to get higher discharge current, the capacity goes down?! And the guys from Enerdan spoke about something like 2500 mAh...:shock:
     
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  10. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Apr 8, 2012
    Ridgeway, Ohio
    The modifications depend upon how the battery will be used and what the eventual end user desires in a battery for their products. Remember, these batteries were not designed with vapers in mind. They were designed to be used exclusively in power packs for the electric automobile/bicycle and portable power tool industries.

    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    battery packs with battery management system

    Let's follow the evolution of the Sony VTC line:

    Sony 18650VTC3 1500mAh 30 amp CDR

    Sony 18650VTC4, 2100 mah 23 amp CDR -- lost significant amps but gained significantly more capacity

    Sony 18650VTC5, 2600 mah 20 amp CDR -- added significantly more mah, but lost very little amperage

    Sony 18650VTC5A, 2500 mah 25 amp CDR -- lost a minimum of capacity, but gained more amperage

    Sony 18650VTC5D, 2700-2800 mah 25 amp CDR -- gains more capacity without sacrificing amps

    Sony 18659VTC6 3000mAh 15/20 amp CDR -- gained maximum capacity, but lost moderate amperage. Obviously designed for situations where max capacity was desired, but still had a decent amperage output.
    Maximum amperage is not always the end goal when designing a battery; if it was the VTC3 would be the only battery Sony needed to make. Some end users wanted a longer lasting battery, even if that meant sacrificing some amperage.

    Subsequent incarnations have had varying capacities and amperage. Now end users have a wider choice of options according to their specific requirements.

    I don't know if Sony will ever be able to manufacture a 30 amp, 3000 mah 18650 battery, but they are making slow strides toward that end game.

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Mooch

    Mooch Electron Wrangler Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 13, 2015
    That’s the general rule but only in broad terms. Higher performing, more expensive cells, can be both higher current rated and higher capacity.

    I measured 2742mAh and 2796mAh, a bit high for a 2500mAh rated battery IMO. Can you get the datasheet from Enerdan?
     
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  12. Rossum

    Rossum Surly Curmudgeon Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 14, 2013
    NE FL
    It would not surprise me if cycle life were a third trade-off in cell design, along with mAh capacity and ampacity (CDR).
     
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  13. Robin Becker

    Robin Becker Senior Member

    Feb 3, 2018
    Berlin
    I wish, if they had...according to them (Enerdan), if a customer like Dyson, or Tesla, or Bosch would ask the manufacturer to modify an existing battery, the manufacturer and customer sign a contract (forgot the name) to keep this information classified.

    Baditude -

    Thanks for the List, but...if you compare the VTC5 with the VTC5A you can see, that this light improvement of CDR came with a larger Diameter of the cell.
    So if the size of the US18650VTC5D has been changed, that can explain how capacity and CDR rose.
     
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  14. madstabber

    madstabber Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    I believe it’s called a non-disclosure agreement/contract
     
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  15. Mooch

    Mooch Electron Wrangler Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 13, 2015
    The VTC5D is a standard 18650
     
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  16. Robin Becker

    Robin Becker Senior Member

    Feb 3, 2018
    Berlin
    Hi Mooch - I meant, that Enerdan told me they can not get the specification from Murata and that can be the reason for that?!
    Btw...can you check the Diameter of the VTC5D? According to the VTC5 is 18.20 mm Diameter, the VTC5A is said to have 18.35 mm
     
  17. Mooch

    Mooch Electron Wrangler Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 13, 2015
    That’s only six thousandths of an inch. :)
     
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  18. Illumns has them for sale in the re wrapped Vapcell.Just ordered Two of them.I will test w/ my opus for capacity. I do not have the skills or equipment like mooch but it gives me a general idea!

    18650 Vapcell 2800mAh Sony US18650VTC5D High Discharge Flat Top - Batteries - Batteries, Chargers, and PowerPax Carriers

    p.s. I noticed you are From Germany so this USA dealer may not be able to help. I think they may ship to Germany but the cost would not be worth it.

    Guten tag!
     
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  19. From San Jose[Illumns] to suburban Philly in less than 48 hours! :) :):),,,,,,,,,,and it was First class mail!

    DISCHARGED @ 1Amp

    Very close to Mooch's numbers which were 2742mAh and 2796mAh


    [​IMG]
     
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  20. I have to realize that this is a vaping website and I do not vape, but I enjoy the info. Mooch and others provide.

    When I look at the graphs provided by Mooch, I see that when discharging at 10A the VTC5A has LESS voltage sag than the VTC5D up until ~ 3.7V. That benefits me because I put a fresh battery in when they voltage is a little bit over that and I am not concerned about using these batteries lower than that because I LOVE max output from my modified V54 lights!

    On the other hand I can see why you Vapors[ the vast majority on here] like the 5D better because at 25A[none of my lights need nearly that many amps] the 5D has LESS voltage sag and outlasts the 5A.:)

    I totally understand why my point may be moot to you vapors,after all this is a VAPING forum!

    All in all these tests are helpful to me and that is why I am here!:thumbs:
     
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