Prominent Doctors Respond to the FDA

[lvlninety9]

OK, f- it. I've heard a lot of speculation about the ECA, and it's continuing now. I'm coming out in support of them. Like I said in a different thread, there's a chance that when this is all over the suppliers and the ECA are going to laugh skipping all the way to the bank, but for right now, we have about 2 organized groups. One is made up of industry folks (the ECA) and one is made up of consumers (LI Vapers and subsidiaries). BOTH groups have the same problem - they have no credentials.
Let's say you put Mr. Salmon on an MSNBC talking head show, with all kinds of notes surrounding him. On the other side of the table is Margaret Hamburg. Mr. Salmon starts talking about TSNAs and levels and amounts. Ms. Hamburg, having had extensive health and safety training, happens to know more about the subject than Mr. Salmon. End result = Mr. Salmon looks like a flounder. Put Spikey in that same position and she'll end up flat.

Now put Dr. Seigel or Dr. Nitzkin in that same place. Ms. Hamburg tries out her knowledge, and the good doctor can counter every claim she makes.

Who's the better advocate for health, safety, and scientific data?

Here's what the ECA is doing: addressing the *other* part of the press release. Gathering QUALIFIED people to talk about the health claims. And doing a crapload of other things that you and I don't know about.

I suggest that if you donated to them and don't feel that you're getting your money's worth, ask nicely if you can have that money back. If you didn't donate to them, you have no right to ....., and can kindly shut up.

Thanks!

-Nate

Wow you just have no clue. I have never said that I don't support the ECA. What I said in fact is that they are not doing the job they should be doing. And all the evidence and notes you speak of not written by Joe Blow in his secret lab in his basement. Plain and simple if you have the facts and evidence there in front of you which are all done by others who are the knowledgeable ones then there is no one that can argue with you about the facts. The fact that the FDA left out the majority of their testing and they CAN'T argue that fact. I applaud the fact that you continually support the ECA. If you are happy with the dance around that they are doing hey more power to you. But the truth of the matter is that if the ECA who is the organization that should be putting out this information which is what an organization like this should be doing then you are letting down your membership and supporters. Oh and just out of curiosity why would a not for profit organization be laughing to the bank? Truth? They wouldn't unless they are ripping you off in some way. They should be the first ones to the front lines advocating for us. And truth be told they really aren't. They say oh we are doing this and this but has anyone honestly truly seen it? I've been to their site dozens of times I get their newsletter and you know what? I still haven't seen anything. No news about what they have accomplished in the media or anything. Just a lame dance around the issues that aren't even on the table at the moment. You fight a war like this and guess what you are going to lose. If something is attacking you head on (in this case the dangers) and you try to throw water balloons (avoiding the subject and trying to redirect it somewhere else) you're going to lose. But hey if you are satisfied with not knowing what the ECA is doing and accepting their sad statements as a rebuttal more power to you.

 

[TheIllustratedMan]

Heaven-gifts.com Ruyandirect.com Best E-smoking Shop
Start stocking up. Wayne will be glad to take your money.

 

[TheIllustratedMan]

OK, to be fair and address your concerns in a succinct and mature manner (sorry for the double post) -

ECA = Trade association - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dr. Seigel et al = Expert - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hope that helps!

 

[lvlninety9]

Person with the facts and evidence to prove it trumps an expert who can't argue the evidence presented.

 

[TheIllustratedMan]

OK, now you've completely lost me. Who do you say has the facts and figures vs who is an expert (by definition has the facts and figures) but can't argue them?


On a side-note, I notice that since your third post here you've been ragging on the ECA. Never even bothered to give them a fair shake. What's the story?

[EDIT] I apologize, it was the second post.

 

[lvlninety9]

I actually did give them a fair shake. I used to be all for them and what they stood for and were trying to accomplish. It wasn't until I started seeing a lot of complaints about the ECA and started looking at what they were doing. I'm still not completely against the ECA. I really would like to see the organization take off. My complaints are that they don't really seem like the go out there and do what needs to be done type. I argued the whole standpoint of the membership fees and such because yeah they do need financial backing. I still think it's a bit much but I really don't know what they are doing so I let that go. Then there was the whole consumer membership thing that bothered me. Yes they are a trade organization and such but I would be willing to donate money a lot more if I could actually be a member and such and not just be a sideline donation. I have seen that I am not the only one with this discrepancy. The thing that really irked me about the ECA was that joke of a statement. It just to me seemed like they really jumped the gun on it. Don't just throw out a statement or video like they did when people are being scared off by FDA saying it's deadly and our test shows it. We know it's all wrong and I'm sure there are dozens upon dozens of people out there who have scoured the reports and studies and could easily have come up with something better. If the ECA was putting balls to the wall great campaigning and rebuttals then they wouldn't look like they do now.

Yeah there are a lot of people that support them. But at the same time there are a lot of people who would like to see them be a bit more aggressive and respond to the public's fears. I for one am one of those people. I would like for them to attack the issues that the public is focusing on head on. Not tap dance around and try to do this can't we all just get along stuff. People talk deadlier then analogs. Not hey that's being sold to kids so you should quit. This is one of those times where you need to relax the masses not let it stew and try to draw attention to it. I don't know about everyone else but it's been my experience that when you try to turn the attention elsewhere then whatever is being said is probably true.

Also if the ECA has enough clout to get on Good Morning America then someone somewhere in the organization should be able to get these doctors on something more then a blog where a lot of people won't see it. It's this lackadaisical attitude about we'll let them get the word out that disturbs me. While the doctor reports and everything are great but why is it so hard to get it into mainstream media? They were on GMA for cryin out loud. If they can't get them on tv then get them into the major papers or something at least. Get em off of the blogs and out to where everyone can see them.

Ok I'm just ranting now. I really have no personal beef. I'm just disappointed in the lack of effort that I've been seeing. And there are others who feel the same way. Hoping even said where's the beef which I felt fit very well.

 

[TheIllustratedMan]

All right, let's look at it this way.

When the FDA released it's health alert, I spent a lot of time researching their claims, giving them the benefit of the doubt, and eventually finding empirical evidence to suggest that their claims, even based on their own report, are bogus. I then posted all that data so that others could use calm, rational data to refute the FDA's argument.
Then you have BigJimW and Spikey start posting about how the FDA is in bed with PM and BigPharma and how the money trail leads this way and that way and the government doesn't want you to quit because then the tax revenues dry up.
And so on.
If you read my comments to the both of them, you will see that, while I disapprove of their tactics, I applaud their activism. I have my way, they have their way.

I ask you... what is your way?

 

[Vocalek]

...of what the doctors had to say, I disagree with their statements:

"Regrettably, the FDA has used biased reporting of this small and inconclusive study, the complete results of which have not been made public, to secure the vocal support of groups such as the American Academy of Pediatrics Tobacco Consortium, the Institute for Global Health, and the American Lung Association in their attack on electronic cigarettes."

I think the docs have it backwards. It was the pressure brought to bear on the FDA by such groups (especially the ALA) that caused all this nonsense in the first place.

 

[Janetda]

Thanks Lacy, This is great stuff. Is there a link to this that isn't on a supplier's web site? Nothing against suppliers, but if we're going to direct others to read this, some other source might hold a little more clout.

 

[quovadis]

Dr.'s Siegel, Radu, and Nitzkin all respond to the FDA's report regarding the electronic cigarette.

Prominent Public Health Physicians and Tobacco Researchers Expose Double Standard in the FDA?s Recent Study of Electronic Cigarettes and Challenge the FDA?s Alarmist Attitude Toward the Devices

This is good to hear.
However the FDA don't test a damned thing. There are independent labs that test products.
It's like sending your car to the EPA for emissions control.!!!
The EPA makes the rules and regulations but they don't test a bloody thing.

The lab that tested the ecig probably had a bit of residual "bad stuff" left in their testing equipment...I would not put it past them.
Lazy bunch of sorry ****ers if you ask me.
If this FDA stuff goes too far i have already been in talks with one FDA certified lab overseas, as well as one over here.
Each liquid has to be tested with that particular cigarette. They test 10 cigs of the same model.
The problem is that each test is $2'800 so it can get quite expensive.
We may have to pool our resources so as to win this one!!!

Why use force, when there is Vaseline?

 

[chad]

Dr.'s Siegel, Radu, and Nitzkin all respond to the FDA's report regarding the electronic cigarette.

Prominent Public Health Physicians and Tobacco Researchers Expose Double Standard in the FDA?s Recent Study of Electronic Cigarettes and Challenge the FDA?s Alarmist Attitude Toward the Devices

Thanks Lacey! This is just what we needed!!

 

[ramblingrose]

I know all of the doctors involved in the statement and all of the suppliers who wish to submit are. The ECA is definitely pushing this forward as it is the health community responding to the FDA.

Now... if the media will just take note and do a follow up... but that is something we can only pressure for...

I know you will, and we will do our part, as best we can.

As ever, thanks for all you do for the cause.

 

[DaBrat]

FWIW.... I emailed all three of these guys and asked for suggestions as to what we as ecig users can do to futher our cause.

 

[CandyGirl]

gotta say, i love a good conspiracy.
who's in bed with who, follow the money, them that has the gold, etc.
AND i'm a sucker for the underdog, let's face it, that's us.

we're talking MAJOR bucks here, corporate and tax revenue in the billions of dollars.
history tells me we don't have a shot. i'm not saying we should throw in the towel but i just don't see us making ANY impact. (though it would be fun to watch John Stossel go round and round with the medical community for 30 minutes)

even if we could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt these things were safe, hey not only safe but a germ killing vapor. they'll still attack us on the "protect the children" front, or the "unregulated", "made in china", "nicotine is a highly addictive poison", fronts.

the federal and state governments are already seeing reduced revenue from our little hobby along with people quitting simply because they can no longer afford to smoke.

even if the playing field was even, their doctors vs. ours. you can't be blind to the corporate "news" media and who owns them.

so what's next? shut us down so we have to go back to smoking? what about the quitters? approve it and tax us?
the need for that revenue isn't going to disappear.

so how about something like this?


Fat Tax Could Be Panacea For Health Reform - Forbes.com

i can't WAIT for the day the soda, ice cream, mickey dee's and sara lee community gets a huge financial bite taken out of their fat a$$es.

hey it worked on me. if cigarettes were still $1 a pack i would have never given them up. (although i'm glad i did) i LOVE to smoke and this is the next best thing, but i just don't see us being allowed to do it for much longer. (legally that is)

so what's my point? glad you asked.

at the end of the day the OWNERS of this country are going to do whatever they want, justified or not, and we're going to cough up the revenue, period.

although, the pleasure i'll get from watching the "anti's" getting fleeced in the near future will be better than free satellite TV.
i hope they're stocking up on "shamwow's" to dry all the tears.

i salute all of you who are fighting the good fight, but i'm not seeing anything from the ECA so far that has me thinking i'm on the winning team.

(sorry if this is a buzz kill)

 

[SharonLM]

Absolutely wonderful! I've printed it out and will distribute when appropriate and carry a copy in my wallet!

 

[lvlninety9]

All right, let's look at it this way.

When the FDA released it's health alert, I spent a lot of time researching their claims, giving them the benefit of the doubt, and eventually finding empirical evidence to suggest that their claims, even based on their own report, are bogus. I then posted all that data so that others could use calm, rational data to refute the FDA's argument.
Then you have BigJimW and Spikey start posting about how the FDA is in bed with PM and BigPharma and how the money trail leads this way and that way and the government doesn't want you to quit because then the tax revenues dry up.
And so on.
If you read my comments to the both of them, you will see that, while I disapprove of their tactics, I applaud their activism. I have my way, they have their way.

I ask you... what is your way?

I apologize for the delay in my response to this. I have been feeling ill and such. But my way? It's that if your going to do something then do it right. Don't issue a response to something that is going to scare the public unless you are going to issue out a response to that issue. I do know that BigJimW is very straight forward and to the point, I have to disagree with the way Spikey is perceived. She does a great job of pointing out the facts. While a lot of her writing might seems like attacks, at least they address the issue. My way is basically don't do something if it's not going to address the issue. The ECA failed to address the issue and therefore wasted the time and money of its members and supporters.

 

[Angela]

I apologize for the delay in my response to this. I have been feeling ill and such. But my way? It's that if your going to do something then do it right. Don't issue a response to something that is going to scare the public unless you are going to issue out a response to that issue. I do know that BigJimW is very straight forward and to the point, I have to disagree with the way Spikey is perceived. She does a great job of pointing out the facts. While a lot of her writing might seems like attacks, at least they address the issue. My way is basically don't do something if it's not going to address the issue. The ECA failed to address the issue and therefore wasted the time and money of its members and supporters.

I think what TheIllustratedMan was asking when he sad "What is your way?" was, what are you personally doing - ie x is doing it this way, y is doing that, z is working that way..... what is your way? That's how I read it, anyway.

 

[TropicalBob]

CandyGirl, you've got your head on straight.

Didn't anyone else glimpse the future when the "cost of obesity" was revealed a few days ago to great fanfare and publicity?

Hmmm. Health care costs are Item 1 on the national agenda. Tobacco costs America $95-billion a year in health care costs for sick and dying smokers. We're doing something about it.

About one out of five adult Americans smoke or use tobacco.

But .... about one out of five Americans are overweight to the definition of obesity. That number is growing, particularly with children who will never straddle a bicycle seat. AND THESE CLINICALLY DEFINED FATTIES COST TWICE WHAT SMOKERS DO IN HEALTH CARE NEEDS. They're a really sickly bunch.

Something must be done to pay the alarming health care costs of the SuperSized People! We need ... new taxes. How about a progressive fat tax on food products. Yes, that's great. Ten cents on Red Bull, 50 cents on French fries, $1 on doughnuts (with Coupons for Cops as part of the federal program).

The anti-tobacco war is virtually over. Only mop-up operations remain. We lost. Badly. We're being herded back into our caves, never to share companionship with the remainder of society.

The New Frontier: Fat.

Bring on the taxes.

 

[sherid]

Working on this...

Also... other shows I thought they would be great on would be Colbert, Stewart, Maher, another suggestion was Stossil.... we are pulling every connection string we know so if ANYONE has a direct connection to ANY media they think would give us a slot, please feel free to PM me, NYCSublimeGirl, eplanet, HaloPunker, any of us...

John Stossel interviewed Dr. Siegel a couple of years ago on 20/20's Gimme a Break. His subject then was the stupidity of outdoor smoking bans. I know he took some heat for it, but maybe he would be up for this one.

 

[Mac]

Isn't the unrepresented taxation of the masses to support social programs socialism? I thought we were supposed to be capitolists over here...