Proposition: Handling Safety Concerns (without additional safety-based bans)

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Markgm

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Thank you, zoiDMan, that makes a good point, re: liability versus regulation. While we're at it, let liability sort it out, like so many other things. Auto liability, home liability, product liability, yada yada. Funny thing; I mentioned a Chinese company with no labels or child-resistant caps. Did you know there are no foreign manufacturers of car/truck ramps in the US? The Asians are terrified of lawsuits. This is making me wonder how a Chinese company is skipping these liability protections on all eliquid products (...........).

When regulations were created based upon the hazards of leaded fuel, they didn't ban gasoline. They forced auto manufacturers to make engines the could run on unleaded fuel. When EPA regulations on emissions were created, they didn't ban the automobile. They required manufacturers to add catalytic converters and other gear to reduce emissions. This is really where my thinking started, which was to put the public perspective in a better light than the one fear-mongers with ulterior motives are doing.

Cheers.
 

AndriaD

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I agree that safety is a concern for everyone. But protecting kids? Parents' job, not the government's, or any of these busybody agencies'; the best way the government could protect kids is making sure that parents know what they're doing -- but do they have mandatory parenting classes? No. They'd rather try to mind our business for us, than do anything *actually* useful.

Proper labelling *should* be an issue, and every ejuice I've bought says things like "contains nicotine - keep out of reach of children." But say one word about allergies, sensitivities, or properties of the ingredients? Nope.

The BEST labelling I've seen so far on ejuice is on the back of Pipe Sauce bottles: "Surgeons in general have determined that living will cause death." Something that most gov't agencies seem to have forgotten, or never realized in the first place.

Andria
 

zoiDman

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Thank you, zoiDMan, that makes a good point, re: liability versus regulation. While we're at it, let liability sort it out, like so many other things. Auto liability, home liability, product liability, yada yada. Funny thing; I mentioned a Chinese company with no labels or child-resistant caps. Did you know there are no foreign manufacturers of car/truck ramps in the US? The Asians are terrified of lawsuits. This is making me wonder how a Chinese company is skipping these liability protections on all eLiquid products (...........).

When regulations were created based upon the hazards of leaded fuel, they didn't ban gasoline. They forced auto manufacturers to make engines the could run on unleaded fuel. When EPA regulations on emissions were created, they didn't ban the automobile. They required manufacturers to add catalytic converters and other gear to reduce emissions. This is really where my thinking started, which was to put the public perspective in a better light than the one fear-mongers with ulterior motives are doing.

Cheers.

The Core of the Problem here is our Inability to think about Tort Reform in this Country. You can Sue Anyone For Anything. And the Courts will hear the Case.

OEM's of Products need to Protect themselves However they Can from Lawsuits. Because the Courts Aren't going to Stand Up and say a Lawsuit is Complete BS, and then Throw it Out.

And a Lawyer sure as Hell Isn't when they get 25~50% of the Settlement.
 

Markgm

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I agree that safety is a concern for everyone. But protecting kids? Parents' job, not the government's, or any of these busybody agencies'; the best way the government could protect kids is making sure that parents know what they're doing -- but do they have mandatory parenting classes? No. They'd rather try to mind our business for us, than do anything *actually* useful.

Proper labelling *should* be an issue, and every ejuice I've bought says things like "contains nicotine - keep out of reach of children." But say one word about allergies, sensitivities, or properties of the ingredients? Nope.

The BEST labelling I've seen so far on ejuice is on the back of Pipe Sauce bottles: "Surgeons in general have determined that living will cause death." Something that most gov't agencies seem to have forgotten, or never realized in the first place.

Andria

What the government can do is monitor a variety of statistics. For example, how many children are killed by household cleaners?

Household Cleaning Products Still Pose Poisoning Risk to Kids - ABC News
Early childhood injuries from household cleaning products dropped by almost half over the past two decades, largely due to child-resistant packaging -- but the number of injuries still remains high, according to an analysis of a national database.

Overall, the number of kids age 5 and younger treated in emergency departments for household cleaning product-related injuries fell 46 percent from 22,141 in 1990 to 11,964 in 2006, Lara B. McKenzie of Nationwide Children's Hospital in Columbus, Ohio, and colleagues found.

Then, we can move on to lawn darts. Do you remember them? They were banned.

And then there are drunk drivers. Statistics showed 50% of fatalities by drivers under the age of 21. The drinking age was raised, as pushed by the feds, stating this problem. In fact, they reduced the fatalities significantly by doing so.

I was reminded of this topic when the US started spending $100 Billion a year on counterterrorism, at a time when more people were dying from deer attacks and home appliances, each of which is around 150 people a year, and where is the public outcry? I know the hypocrisy is rampant.

The state can respond to statistics, due to unsuspecting or negligent or incompetent citizens. They should respond in some way to the biggest ones, like American food that causes heart disease, but they don't. I really don't think they actually do this whole thing about addressing actual statistics out of public concern, like they do for moneyed concerns. The child-resistant caps appear to have made a difference with some household items, because let's be honest... You walk into most people's homes, look under the kitchen sink, and you will find the chemicals necessary to do heinous things. Who takes measures to stop that from happening? It becomes a statistic.

I don't think the stats with eLiquid compares to what's under the sink. I know for a fact it doesn't even come close to prescription med overdoses. And according to this page, there are over 20,000 reports of fluoride poisoning from toothpaste a year, but milder poisonings still go unnoticed.
Fluoride Action Network | Acute Fluoride Toxicity from Toothpaste Ingestion

In the end, I think there's some good ammo for comparison, here. The toothpaste one really gets me. The prescription meds. The household products. And the whole point about safety issues addressed by liability and lawsuits.
 

Sundodger

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"And then there are drunk drivers. Statistics showed 50% of fatalities by drivers under the age of 21. The drinking age was raised, as pushed by the feds, stating this problem. In fact, they reduced the fatalities significantly by doing so."

Not really. I was involved with the insurance industry back when the Feds pushed the states to move to the 21 year old drinking laws. While after 10, 15 years the 18-21 year old stats dropped for drunk driving crashes, at the same time those statistics moved into older age groups at nearly the same rate as was seen in the 18-21 age group previous to the change in age.

So what I see is that you have a group of people, no matter the age that will get stupid behind the wheel no matter the law. It just takes longer for them because of the law, it doesn't stop the problem, just moves the date of occurrence.
 

bigdancehawk

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The Core of the Problem here is our Inability to think about Tort Reform in this Country. You can Sue Anyone For Anything. And the Courts will hear the Case.

OEM's of Products need to Protect themselves However they Can from Lawsuits. Because the Courts Aren't going to Stand Up and say a Lawsuit is Complete BS, and then Throw it Out.

And a Lawyer sure as Hell Isn't when they get 25~50% of the Settlement.

Really? This is as bad as the most ridiculous things ANTZ say about e-cigarettes.

There’s plenty of tort reform going on and it’s been going on for quite some time. 38 states have enacted modified joint and several liability rules, 25 have modified the collateral source rule, 23 have put caps on non-economic damages, 34 have placed limits on punitive damages, many states (I don’t know the exact number) have enacted shorter statutes of limitations for certain cases, including medical malpractice, and many states require a written opinion letter from a qualified expert before or shortly after the suit is filed. I could go on.

The fact is that many, many lawsuits get thrown out every day long before they have even been set for trial.

Of course, you can walk into the court clerk’s office and file a lawsuit against anybody for anything. The clerks can't screen cases. But if it lacks factual or legal merit it will almost certainly be thrown out long before it ever goes to trial.

And please cool it with the lawyer bashing. There are many fine, honorable lawyers, including CASAA board members, who bust their butts for just causes.
 

zoiDman

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Really? This is as bad as the most ridiculous things ANTZ say about e-cigarettes.

There’s plenty of tort reform going on and it’s been going on for quite some time. 38 states have enacted modified joint and several liability rules, 25 have modified the collateral source rule, 23 have put caps on non-economic damages, 34 have placed limits on punitive damages, many states (I don’t know the exact number) have enacted shorter statutes of limitations for certain cases, including medical malpractice, and many states require a written opinion letter from a qualified expert before or shortly after the suit is filed. I could go on.

The fact is that many, many lawsuits get thrown out every day long before they have even been set for trial.

Of course, you can walk into the court clerk’s office and file a lawsuit against anybody for anything. The clerks can't screen cases. But if it lacks factual or legal merit it will almost certainly be thrown out long before it ever goes to trial.

And please cool it with the lawyer bashing. There are many fine, honorable lawyers, including CASAA board members, who bust their butts for just causes.

If you think that our Legal System is where it should be, you are Entitled to your Opinion.

But I think if you Talked with Most in Business, that they would tell you that the Two Groups of People they Fear and Detest the Most are Personal Injury and Product Liability Lawyers.
 

Kent C

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If you think that our Legal System is where it should be, you are Entitled to your Opinion.

But I think if you Talked with Most in Business, that they would tell you that the Two Groups of People they Fear and Detest the Most are Personal Injury and Product Liability Lawyers.

Loser pays winner's lawyer would stop most frivolous lawsuits. Also "You can't fix stupid".... even with legislation.
 

Kent C

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It Might.

It Might also prevent someone Filing a Legitimate Lawsuit. And that would seem to take Us even farther from a Fair and Equitable Legal System.

I know that's the ambulance chaser's (and progressives' and liberals') arguments. But, first, we couldn't get much further from fair and equitable as it is now. (I know both terms means something entirely different for you and me). Second, the filing of a "legitimate" lawsuit is sometimes part of a lawyer's decision and if they know the rules, they're only going to file ones with a high probability of winning - which, imo, is the way it should be.

There are other reforms that might work just as well or better. Restrict lawyer fees to 5% instead of 30% and ban class action lawsuits which almost never work out well for the 'class' and almost always work out well for the lawyers only. Adjustments could be made to 'strict liability' and 'product liability' as well but that gets complicated. Basically with strict liability no proof is necessary if a consumer is injured in any way (including 'pilot error') in using the product. So someone, (for example of something that was reported here), who charges a non-rechargeable battery and puts into a Chuck or other mod and it blows up, the mod maker and the battery manufacturer would still be at fault under strict liability. That shouldn't be, imo.
 

zoiDman

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I know that's the ambulance chaser's (and progressives' and liberals') arguments. But, first, we couldn't get much further from fair and equitable as it is now. (I know both terms means something entirely different for you and me). Second, the filing of a "legitimate" lawsuit is sometimes part of a lawyer's decision and if they know the rules, they're only going to file ones with a high probability of winning - which, imo, is the way it should be.

There are other reforms that might work just as well or better. Restrict lawyer fees to 5% instead of 30% and ban class action lawsuits which almost never work out well for the 'class' and almost always work out well for the lawyers only. Adjustments could be made to 'strict liability' and 'product liability' as well but that gets complicated. Basically with strict liability no proof is necessary if a consumer is injured in any way (including 'pilot error') in using the product. So someone, (for example of something that was reported here), who charges a non-rechargeable battery and puts into a Chuck or other mod and it blows up, the mod maker and the battery manufacturer would still be at fault under strict liability. That shouldn't be, imo.

This Topic has been Brought Up a Thousand Times on a Million Forums.

To Me, the Only way to get a Handle on things is to Limit the Amount a Lawyer can receive from Bringing/Winning a Product Liability or Personal Injury Lawsuit. As well as Limiting what can be Awarded to the Injured Party.
 
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bigdancehawk

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I know that's the ambulance chaser's (and progressives' and liberals') arguments. But, first, we couldn't get much further from fair and equitable as it is now. (I know both terms means something entirely different for you and me). Second, the filing of a "legitimate" lawsuit is sometimes part of a lawyer's decision and if they know the rules, they're only going to file ones with a high probability of winning - which, imo, is the way it should be.

There are other reforms that might work just as well or better. Restrict lawyer fees to 5% instead of 30% and ban class action lawsuits which almost never work out well for the 'class' and almost always work out well for the lawyers only. Adjustments could be made to 'strict liability' and 'product liability' as well but that gets complicated. Basically with strict liability no proof is necessary if a consumer is injured in any way (including 'pilot error') in using the product. So someone, (for example of something that was reported here), who charges a non-rechargeable battery and puts into a Chuck or other mod and it blows up, the mod maker and the battery manufacturer would still be at fault under strict liability. That shouldn't be, imo.

I don't think it would matter how much evidence I presented to you to demonstrate that almost everything you have said is completely wrong--it wouldn't make the slightest impression.
 

bigdancehawk

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This Topic has been Brought Up a Thousand Times on a Million Forums.

To Me, the Only way to get a Handle on things is to Limit the Amount a Lawyer can receive from Bringing/Winning a Product Liability or Personal Injury Lawsuit. As well as Limiting what can be Awarded to the Injured Party.

Alright, you tell me what the limit should be in this case: A 34 year old heart surgeon with a wife and four children is driving to work early one morning when he's hit head on by a speeding car driven by a drunk driver who suddenly swerves over the centerline. As a result, the surgeon is rendered a quadriplegic and will require costly medical attention and constant in-home nursing care for the rest of his life.
 

Jman8

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Alright, you tell me what the limit should be in this case: A 34 year old heart surgeon with a wife and four children is driving to work early one morning when he's hit head on by a speeding car driven by a drunk driver who suddenly swerves over the centerline. As a result, the surgeon is rendered a quadriplegic and will require costly medical attention and constant in-home nursing care for the rest of his life.

$5 million minimum, $20 million limit.
 

zoiDman

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Alright, you tell me what the limit should be in this case: A 34 year old heart surgeon with a wife and four children is driving to work early one morning when he's hit head on by a speeding car driven by a drunk driver who suddenly swerves over the centerline. As a result, the surgeon is rendered a quadriplegic and will require costly medical attention and constant in-home nursing care for the rest of his life.

Is this Relevant to Product Liability? ie: Warning Labels & Child Proof Caps.
 

sonicdsl

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Hi,
In response to various states calling for various bans, I have an idea as to how to handle the safety concern.

First off, I think that there are poisonings occurring. This will happen with children getting into eLiquid bottles, or with negligence or incompetence handling eLiquid, such that it spills on the skin (in significant quantity).

OK, so what does happen, normally, when there is a concern like this? Two things come to mind.
1) Warning labels
2) Child-proof safety caps

There are harmful chemicals in the house, and pharmaceuticals in the medicine cabinet.

While this may sound like more than what folks here might want to deal with, please consider... This could put the public's mind in a better mindset, and maybe better protected from off-balance fear-mongering. It reminds us of (common) medicine bottles.

What do you think?

:)
 
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