Discussion in 'FDA Regulations' started by Wysardi, Dec 29, 2017.
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I just found out Provape closed due to FDA regulations. What regulations are they talking about?
I don't believe they were closed due to FDA regulations, although I think perhaps there was some worry about them upcoming.... I don't know the whole story, but it certainly wasn't a case of the FDA closing them down or anything, I believe a lot of factors were in play, but I haven't completely gone through the whole thing, though I'm sure someone who has been vaping Provape items for longer than me probably knows more. I'm just going to state that there weren't safety issues with their mods or anything.
Deeming regulations have been pushed out since our FDA "lot" has changed with the new administration, but at the time, deeming would have been in effect this year. Perhaps as a small American company they felt they wouldn't be able to meet the approval process in time or it would have killed off their business, something like that. With that said, I think there were other factors in play but I'm not sure exactly what. I'm sure someone WILL know though.
Welcome to ECF, by the way
The FDA deeming regulations of 8-8 2016 caused an unexpected condition in the vaping community - I'll explain how it caused provape to shut their doors.
First, deeming was beginning on 8-8-2016 and supposed to be fully in effect by August of 2018 (or something like that).. it was incrementally to be imposed and enforced.
So okay, because the FDA was so unclear with the vaping community, and what they were clear on was fairly rough, (only 75-100 vaping products currently on the market would likely gain approval according to the FDA at the time - and that was taking about ejuice, rdas, rta's, coils, mods etc. That figure was an estimation by the FDA encompassing all vaping products)
So vapors got scared of the unknown - would their coils still be able to be sold? Would their favorite ejuice disappear tommorow? What about mods and how will deeming affect how they vape?
And people stopped all their normal buying habits full stop.
Instead of buying enough coils to get through the month, they started buying RTA's and learning how to build their own coils.
Instead of buying ejuice, they started stocking up on DIY supplies and learning how to make their own..
Instead of buying the latest and greatest mod, they started buying mechanical mods that would last forever because they didn't have boards and had the greatest potential for longevity.
Stocking up for the potential government imposed near prohibition was the name of the game, because no one knew if it was going to be their vape to get through the gauntlet of government regulations or not.
Now... this was the environment in the vaping community in the months leading up to provape shutting their doors. Even overseas to a lesser degree as the UK had the TPD (or something like that)
Prior to all this, the owners of provape had made the decision to retire, and was planning on selling provape. There were investors involved, and Mike from HOH was planning on buying it as even if he didn't make it through regulations here provari was still highly popular overseas.
However, the shift in buying patterns by the vaping community were so severe that it caused the investors to back out, as they couldn't see any business surviving what was happening...
So provape owners retired without selling provape. It WAS due to the regulations and the uncertainty those regulations created within the vaping community which caused the doors of provape to be closed forever rather than just changing ownership - but it wasn't a direct cause, but rather an indirect consequence of the regulations at the time.
Of course, things have changed now with deeming, the FDA asking better questions and giving more consideration to the vaping community so everything is being put off a little longer, and if this environment stays positive more items will likely get through the regulatory process - but no one had any hope back then because of what the FDA was both saying and doing.
So... indirect consequence - and that is that.
Also have to take into account the rise in sub-ohm vaping and the plethora of cheap high watt mods. The Provari was a game changer but at the price and abilities, it was vastly obsolete in many ways. Then with Evolv and the ever increasing DNA, their market was becoming smaller and smaller.
Even without possible FDA interference, I don't think Provape would have survived, at least not in the form it was known. As you said it would have been bought up by investors and became a name only kind of thing. Now whether or not in name only would it have become an innovator again or just ride the coat tails of former glory, who knows.
You say that, yet Vuse holds a 38% market share of the sales of e cigarettes in the United States, higher than any other manufacturer.
Provape had its place in the market, probably a bigger place than many other brands.
We have a tendency to forget that while we help drive some trends - we also aren't as representative of the majority of vapors as we often imagine we are.
People who are likely to be active in advocacy, active online and vocal about vaping, aren't in the majority - we are but a minority of people who buy vaping products, and the brands and types of vaping we generally avoid, is what is more common out there in the world.
When people see me vape, they are surprised as they've only encountered the ego type battery or the cig alike... I frequently get told that a person has "tried vaping" and it didn't work for them but that what they had looked "nothing like" my provari. They then go on to explain an ego device or a cig alike...
I then explain all that is available on the market and how they would likely be more successful with these other devices.
I think we often forget most people have never seen nor heard of advanced devices... what they think of when they think vaping is still to this day a small cig alike or ego type device... and those items are what are continuing to hold the market share in sales, at the very least in this country.
So.. while for many the advanced devices beat out the provari, those people are not in the majority. The majority just want a mtl device that recreates smoking for them, as much as is possible to do so.
Actually Vuse having a large percentage doesn't surprise me one bit, as they're in loads of gas stations and the like, not just "vape" shops. Their pricing also helps push their sales as it's a cheap start up compared to many other options.
Vuse is a double edged sword, on one hand people that want to quit, try them. Then they don't feel as if they are getting enough, so they go to shops or online and upgrade. The other side is the people that sort of want to quit, try it and don't get enough. They just give up on vaping and go back to smoking.
What hurts Provari in this market (especially US, overseas laws may help Provari) is cost. Many won't/wouldn't go with a Provari (hence popularity of the old Vamo) because of the price of the unit, compared to higher watt cheaper units.
I'm not saying the Provari wasn't worth the asking price, they were/are solid units and had great customer service. I wouldn't be surprised one bit to see the units working 20 years from now, where other mods will be long dead.
It's just that the Provari is more of a starter mod now (as far as ability and power) but has a premium price tag. Like you said most people don't know, they don't live vaping, so they're going to have a hard time grasping the price difference between it and a box that does more but costs less.
The best selling thing in most shops (geared toward new and experienced vapers), is going to be a decent quality, good looking and most of all cheap device. I've worked in sales and it doesn't matter what the product is, it all comes to price with looks and quality trading places of importance depending on the person, as some go form over function and others vice versa.
I don't actually see provaris as "starter kits" honestly. They're a fantastic, well built vape for MTL vapers. I will say that the only mod I have (currently) that even rivals it is my steampunk for smoothness and evenness, and even THEN as low battery approaches, I notice sag. (That usually takes a bit of time, however).
I will say if provaris were still on the market new, I would buy them. Not exclusively and I am happy I have some TC and some larger mods, but they fill a niche that isn't really filled by the sub0hm market. If a vape is good enough, I don't mind filling tanks more often, or changing batteries more often. It's easy to do. I know there has been "competition" in the market but for straight non-TC MTL vaping, nothing else I have even comes close.
Yeah, I used a poor choice of words when saying starter kit. I was "shortly" trying to say they are easy to use and learn, plus not aimed at cloud chasers, sub-ohming and the ilk. The best next thing to the Provari is a Billet Box or a Vapor Shark, have/had both, which is why I never bought a Provari (that and my bud had 3 of them I could use, lol). Now neither is a cheap option to say the least, nor will I say better option.
I honestly think if there is money to be made with the Provari, someone will buy the name and restart production. The owners retiring aren't making a dime on it, since they aren't in business, so why not just sell the name and let someone go with it(they may choose not to though). It's happened with many other products, so I could see it happening here, depending on what they'd want for the name and such. For all we know as well, it could already be in the works, someone right now could be getting ready to open up shop.
38% market share only accounts for the part of the market that can be monitored which would be products distributed through traditional tobacco channels. Nobody knows what's happening in speciality vape shops and mail order. Dollar sales don't mean much either because it doesn't measure how much vaping is happening or how many are doing it. Using myself as an extreme example, I decided to stock up. For $650 I've got enough mods, atomizers and nic to last at least 10 years, may be 20 if shelf life turns out to be that long. I went from spendinng $3,000 a year to smoke to virtually nothing to vape ($2.00 a year for rebuilding, $25 for DIY). I wouldn't bet on heat-not-burn succeeding in the long run because it's priced the same or more than smoking.
I believe the provape owners decided they had enough money to retire and decided to close down the brand to protect against potential lawsuits. It's hard to sue a company that no longer exists.
My wife and I went from the beginner ego sticks right to a provari. Back in the day they were the device to have, once you get past the expensive. My eyes still well up a bit reading about provape closing. Between the explosion of cheaper high power devices, the FDA and the younger crowd wanting cloudz provape decided not to keep up. A 30/34 1.4ohm clapton in a subtank mini fires just dandy on my provari. I have posted several times before that I will shed a tear the day my provari dies, almost 5 years and still hitting great.
"Just get a Prova...". Oh, wait - nevermind.
Oh, c'mon. SOMEBODY was going to say it sooner or later. ;-)
I am so happy I got a few spares in the last weeks they were still in stock. Wonderful machine. Should last me the rest of my vaping life.
Sure glad I picked up one or twenty-seven of 'em.
FYI, if you feel inclined or interested...
How Many People Vape Around The World?
How Many People Vape Around The World? / Vaping.com - Your One Stop Vapor Shop | vaping.com
As my avatar may have said, "There are other worlds than these."
LoVe my ProVari! P3 Ti! Provape sent me two of them for the price of one. I guess it was because they were closing their doors?
That was a very lucky buy for you, the TI P3 is to me the very best of the best of the products they produced
I wish I had a backup unit...but will enjoy the one example that I have for as long as it lives
I was late to the Provape game but I am happy to say that I finally know why so many folks said "Just get a Provari". I was gifted my first one and I was blown away by how it perfectly fit my style of vaping. Fortunately I was able to purchase 2 more so I should be set for the rest of my life. That's not saying I wouldn't buy more if I had the chance to do so.
I blew my vape budget for years backing those suckers up, even at the reduced price they closed them out at.
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