Rant - Kinda

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we2rcool

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I may have misunderstood. I thought there was knowledge that some of ECF's registered suppliers are selling us particularly harmful liquids. i.e. one of us received a liquid, had it tested and it contain diacetyl yet the supplier did not disclose that they use it....or something like that. I was already aware that FA & TFA offer up their testing etc. Thanks:)

'Sorry if we misunderstood. We haven't checked the complete 'registered suppliers' list lately. Take ECX for example (a registered supplier) - they sell 'food flavors' from a variety of manufacturers, but only the ones from FA and TFA (ECX's Signature line) have any information about their ingredients...yet these chemicals are prevalent throughout the food industry.

Edit/add: in the thread above (http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/543911-acetyl-pyrazine-diacetyl-acetoine-help.html ), we see the actual test results from a FW flavor (butterscotch) containing VERY high levels of diacetyl. The testing was done by a Canadian company that had been using FW butterscotch/others in their juices. ECX sells FW. Of course, it's unlikely the Canadian company bought it from ECX...but ECX sells the flavor - without warning or disclosure.
 
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LoveVanilla

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I may have misunderstood. I thought there was knowledge that some of ECF's registered suppliers are selling us particularly harmful liquids.

Yes, I believe that is the point. However, due to lack of testing and customer disclosure it's a broader issue. Here, take a gander at this snippet from Wikipedia:

Titanium dioxide dust, when inhaled, has been classified by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) as an IARC Group 2B carcinogen, meaning it is possibly carcinogenic to humans.[55] The findings of the IARC are based on the discovery that high concentrations of pigment-grade (powdered) and ultrafine titanium dioxide dust caused respiratory tract cancer in rats exposed by inhalation and intratracheal instillation.[56] The series of biological events or steps that produce the rat lung cancers (e.g. particle deposition, impaired lung clearance, cell injury, fibrosis, mutations and ultimately cancer) have also been seen in people working in dusty environments. Therefore, the observations of cancer in animals were considered, by IARC, as relevant to people doing jobs with exposures to titanium dioxide dust. For example, titanium dioxide production workers may be exposed to high dust concentrations during packing, milling, site cleaning and maintenance, if there are insufficient dust control measures in place. However, the human studies conducted so far do not suggest an association between occupational exposure to titanium dioxide and an increased risk for cancer. The safety of the use of nano-particle sized titanium dioxide, which can penetrate the body and reach internal organs, has been criticized.[57] Studies have also found that titanium dioxide nanoparticles cause inflammatory response and genetic damage in mice.[58][59] The mechanism by which TiO2 may cause cancer is unclear. Molecular research suggests that cell cytotoxicity due to TiO2 results from the interaction between TiO2 nanoparticles and the lysosomal compartment, independently of the known apoptotic signalling pathways.[60]

The body of research regarding the carcinogenicity of different particle sizes of titanium dioxide has led the US National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health to recommend two separate exposure limits. NIOSH recommends that fine TiO2 particles be set at an exposure limit of 2.4 mg/m3, while ultrafine TiO2 be set at an exposure limit of 0.3 mg/m3, as time-weighted average concentrations up to 10 hours a day for a 40 hour work week.[61] These recommendations reflect the findings in the research literature that show smaller titanium dioxide particles are more likely to pose carcinogenic risk than the larger titanium dioxide particles.

Does that leave you with a nice warm fuzzy? And, if you think government is our savior, remember the fire-......ants they require in cigarettes.
 
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Racehorse

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sells the flavor - without warning or disclosure.

That's the thing. I don't care what "other" people wish to put into their lungs. Just give us the information / disclosure we need, so that we can ALL make our OWN decisions.

That's the problem for me with any vape-specific vendor. Whatever you are selling, if there has been any information that has come out that is problematic, the customer has a right to know this.

Some vendors are proactive and responsible. A while back Mountain Oaks Vapor discovered that a flavoring used in one of their juice "might" have a safety problem. They disclosed immediately, and found another source for that flavoring, and re-engineered the ejuices that used it. That is the kind of company I want to buy from. :)
 

Joe13

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I make a DIY e-liquid with Panettone by FlavourArt. I find that just three drops per 5mL works well. It's fantastic - very reminiscent of the bakery product it's named after.

I don't vape it every day, but that has nothing to do with safety. It's just something I enjoy occasionally.

At the level I'm using it at, I sincerely doubt I'll be diagnosed with "popcorn lung" any time soon.
 

LoveVanilla

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In fairness to supplier mentioned, this item shows "Out of Stock" and thus could not be ordered directly; noticed same on at least some flavorings containing "titanium dioxide".

Meanwhile there are plenty of flavorings out there with ill-advised contents for vaping. I'd suggest vapers carefully choose suppliers demonstrating proactive protection their interests and health.

And to your point Joe13, that's informed consent. The issue is that informed consent requires knowledge; and that knowledge is not consistently provided.
 
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~Sue~Feb2012

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I've not bought any flavors where I saw the disclaimer that it was for food use and not suitable for vaping. I buy mainly from Ecigexpress, HDV and Vaping Zone. Prior to this, I was using FW, FA and TFA but discovered my problems with PG-based flavors and liquids. I switched to alcohol based.

After reading this, and several other threads, I see that what most are saying is that many suppliers are using and selling products without the disclaimer, so we don't really know if they are suitable for vaping or not. I agree that suppliers (whether for DIY or vendors making e-liquids for us) should state the disclaimer and let people make their own decisions.

If I understand correctly, VZ's super concentrated alcohol based flavorings contain the "not suitable for vaping" but they don't state it on the site and won't answer the question when asked? Also HighDesertVapes? (I've read this, and so many other threads, my head is spinning and can't remember where I've read what!)

Does FA or TFA carry any alcohol based for those of us that can't use PG-based? They're the only ones who test or disclose info?

Perhaps I'll just stick to vaping my unflavored *sigh*

Great thread. Thanks everyone, for all the info :)
 

HeadInClouds

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Does FA or TFA carry any alcohol based for those of us that can't use PG-based? They're the only ones who test or disclose info?
Perhaps I'll just stick to vaping my unflavored *sigh*

So far, yes, they're the only two. FA does not make any non-PG flavors - I'd sure be set if they did. If you can't use any PG at all, you'll have to cross FA off your list. That leaves only TFA -

When you go through TFA's website and eliminate all the flavors with custard notes AND all with PG, there aren't very many left. Their non-PG (alcohol- or triacetin-based) versions of Cola, Cola Syrup, Root Beer, Hpno, Absinthe, Cinnamon Red Hots, Holiday Spice, Maple, and Cinnamon Spice are about it. With most of those they make versions with PG as well, so you have to be sure you're getting the right version when you order. I have no-PG Cranberry and Maraschino Cherry from them, but I don't think they make those any more.

Might it be worthwhile to do your own alcohol extractions of coffee, tea, mint, or tobacco? I don't know much about extractions, just did stevia once, but it's the only other idea I have....besides unflavored, of course.
 

~Sue~Feb2012

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Sue, there is a sticky in this forum, started by Levitas, listing PG free flavorings and suppliers, it's a pretty big list! As far as VZ goes, some of them do, not all of them, but there we go with disclosure again.

Yup I've seen those lists thanks Becca. Regarding the discussions in this thread, however, I'm now skeptical about most brands unless the website specifically mentions that they don't use the "not suitable" ....

I did hop on the Nude Nic bandwagon last night and ordered a few flavors they sell! :)
 

we2rcool

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Yup I've seen those lists thanks Becca. Regarding the discussions in this thread, however, I'm now skeptical about most brands unless the website specifically mentions that they don't use the "not suitable" ....

I did hop on the Nude Nic bandwagon last night and ordered a few flavors they sell! :)

Fwiw, we love NN nic...but they've recently disclosed they use acetoin for 'creams' (it's somewhere in this thread: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/e-cigarette-suppliers-forum/462387-nude-nicotine-2-0-chemically-validated-nicotine-base-eliquid-ask-your-nn-chemistry-related-questions-here.html)
 

~Sue~Feb2012

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:facepalm: Well thanks

I'll have to read the entire thread now (although I was planning to) but placed my order for some of their flavors last night before reading through it.

 

aikanae1

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:facepalm: Well thanks

I'll have to read the entire thread now (although I was planning to) but placed my order for some of their flavors last night before reading through it.

I hope you do ask him. I started to, asking what he ment by "alternative molecules" and got a paper (over my head) an I haven't followed up - just got busy. He seemed interested in writting something about ingredients in eliquids and has a start on his website. IMO, he seems pretty open to questions and he seems to love chemistry.

Some of the VZ flavors do contain diacetyl - the Gourmet. There is a listing of which ones on Bakers Flavor website in Russian. You'll have to use a translater. Remember that some flavors are used in concentrations of less than 0.5%-1% and I assume they are listing those amounts UNDILUTED. That makes a difference. However, there are a few that are extrodinarly high.

To my knowledge, no one knows where VZ's Super Concentrates are sourced from - "China". That's not saying much. If your concerned, stay away from custards, cake, waffles, butterscotch, carmels, i.e. IMO the yummy flavors. Many people have tried to find the source for those - so if you find out, let us know. But again, those flavors use the lowest concentrations (next to Gourmet).

Next up is FA for low concentration. I'm hesitant with NF due to high concentrations required and the presence of alcohol (I tend to react to that too. Not uncommon with PG allergies I guess). My game plan is to stick with as little flavoring as possible and it's a good thing I also like fruit without requiring it to be creamy. Oh well, I guess being let loose in a bakery was too much of a dream to be true. LOL!

I hear people talking about doing their own extracts, but it's not quite that simple nor would it always produce a safer flavor or it would have been done by now. Most homes don't have a way of filtering out undesirable parts found in food (including diacetyl), want to pay for testing or have any other way of knowing what it's got in it. My hunch is vanilla, coffee and tea are fairly safe. But why? Those are fairly safe in flavorings too.

I suspect there's been progress made in extractions lately. But it's beyond me. I've also tried to contact flavor manufacturers indepently and the conversation quickly gets into molecules and beyond my basic knowledge.

On the other thread link, there is mention that eliquids (premixed) AEMSA requires labeling that clearly identifies which one are made with diacetyl. There is nothing about flavors used. The flavoring trade organization is concerned with food safe flavors and they don't reccomend selling to the ecig industry. Technically, all these flavorings are labeled appropiate for industry standards. The vaping standard is higher. Nothing in the current regulations is aimed at sorting this out. This is what we got to work with right now. Some people choose to vape unflavored.

I'm just making the best choices I can with what I know and I expect what I know will be changing all the time.

Has anyone else watched the comedy "Farmed and Dangerous" on Netflix/Hulu?
 
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~Sue~Feb2012

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I've not seen "Farmed and Dangerous" ...don't have Netflix/Hulu.

I use a drop or 2 of a flavoring in a 5ml bottle when I DIY, so up to this point I wasn't worrying about how much of the bad stuff I've been inhaling in my vapes. I'm glad that everyone's posts has made me more aware and will do as much looking into it as I can.

I did post a question on NN about the 2 different pages where I saw acetoin mentioned. No response yet on that page.
 
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