Maybe a rant or just confused. I got an order today from a well known diy vendor. I got a new flavor I was anxious to try, Panettone by FlavourArt, a new flavor that I had ordered because it was their "special of the day" discount on the day I placed my order. So I go to their website hoping to get an idea on what % to use in my mix and look up Panettone. I see this warning: Contains Diacetyl and/or related diketones. Not suitable for vaping. This product is intended for food use only. Then why is it being sold by a vendor who caters exclusively to vapers??? Is it really that dangerous or is this warning like the warnings you read on all the OTC medications that it may have some adverse effect on 1 in a million people if you used it 24 hrs a day, 365 days a year for the next 100 years? Now I've got this new flavor and I'm afraid to use it. At least it was on special lol.
Rant - Kinda
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Flavourart has 2 lines of flavorings (you can check 'em out here: Flavourart - La sartoria degli aromi, aromi alimentari e per sigaretta elettronica made in Italy) One is called Kitchen Magic; the other is Electronic Cigarette. Flavors in the line Electronic Cigarette line are diacetyl/related diketone free. Those in the Kitchen Magic line are 'up for grabs'
Sometimes the resellers of these flavors go to the trouble to describe them adequately; some don't bother (or describe only a few).
As far as the warnings...?...we vapers are the guinea-pigs & lab rats for direct inhalation. The current safety guidelines for industry (normal breathing inhalation for those working with the chemicals) indicate the only safe exposure is in ppb (parts per billion). From what several of us have calculated, even the tiniest of 'trace amounts' is more than what the safety guidelines indicate.
We always wanted to try Panettone, too; we chose to pass on it.
Our rant-kinda? ANY vendor that knows they are selling flavors to vapers should test & properly disclose the presence of chemicals that have the potential to damage our lungs.
If it's who I think you're referring to, that warning is clearly on the description for that flavor. Very large, in fact.
They also have a section under e-liquid ingredients for food coloring. And yes, they do sell the now infamous "white" coloring - while the ingredients for that are also listed, there is no warning on it (or any for that matter). But esp that one cuz we probably all remember what happened with *that one*
OTOH, it is under a listing for DIY, the Y being for Yourself. And if you, yourself, want to put coloring in your own juice - knock yourself out
They also have a section under e-liquid ingredients for food coloring. And yes, they do sell the now infamous "white" coloring - while the ingredients for that are also listed, there is no warning on it (or any for that matter). But esp that one cuz we probably all remember what happened with *that one*
OTOH, it is under a listing for DIY, the Y being for Yourself. And if you, yourself, want to put coloring in your own juice - knock yourself out
They also have a section under e-liquid ingredients for food coloring. And yes, they do sell the now infamous "white" coloring - while the ingredients for that are also listed, there is no warning on it (or any for that matter). But esp that one cuz we probably all remember what happened with *that one*
No clue on the "white" coloring. Can you fill me in? Or provide link on the subject/issue? Thanks.
While flavoring companies may carry flavors that may not be safe for vaping, a VAPING site really should not be carrying those flavors.
I feel strongly about that.
There is a reason TFA and Flavour Arts have done testing and such on flavors "safest to vape."
I feel strongly about that.
There is a reason TFA and Flavour Arts have done testing and such on flavors "safest to vape."
I really don't think they should sell them either. Smitty, you could always try it in your coffee.
Love Vanilla, there was a big dust-up over the white food coloring a vendor was putting in their liquids..to make them look cool or something. There is a harmful-to-us chemical in the white coloring (titanium dioxide). Most of those threads got closed, the vendor stopped using the coloring and that was pretty much it. Yet you can still buy the coloring at the same supplier that the OP is talking about.
eta-that coloring has NO warning. *bangs head twice*
Love Vanilla, there was a big dust-up over the white food coloring a vendor was putting in their liquids..to make them look cool or something. There is a harmful-to-us chemical in the white coloring (titanium dioxide). Most of those threads got closed, the vendor stopped using the coloring and that was pretty much it. Yet you can still buy the coloring at the same supplier that the OP is talking about.
eta-that coloring has NO warning. *bangs head twice*
hahaha I thought the same thing about the food coloring. I remember everyone bashing the dude over the coloring but no one said anything about the place selling it. its in the DIY part of their website. I thought about getting the pink and white just for fun to make a mix like it as a novelty lol. but seriously not one word was said about the people selling just alot of bashing the guy who used it who im sure thought well hey its here and has no warnings on it ill use it ..it but I didnt want to be the guy who said it out loud either . funny how a one sided witch hunt it turned out to be , or not funny for him i guess..... still going to try it someday lol
AGREE!
And since this is a 'rant thread', we'll add...
Every vaper that cares even one iota about their health should 'feel very strongly about that'! And those that don't care about their health, should care about their freedom and that of the vaping community...which IS at serious risk already.
Vendors that sell 'the candy & bakery flavors that tempt innocent children to start vaping - a gateway to cigarette smoking' (media propaganda :::eyeroll::: ), that are laced with the chemicals that have been known to be inhalation risks for years, adds to the risk and reasons the authorities have to step in & take over.
And then there's the posters that continue to defend these vendors...and the posters that ridicule those that post about these issues :::completely exasperated eyeroll:::
LEARN to identify them here: Perfumer's Apprentice Flavorist's Corner; stop buying them, and email the vendor and tell them why you've stopped. And don't hesitate to post the truth so that other posters can gain the knowledge they need to make an informed choice - and do what they can to protect their health and their vaping rights.
This isn't something 'radical' or extreme! These are just simple issues of safety, freedom & integrity.
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I really don't think they should sell them either. Smitty, you could always try it in your coffee.
Love Vanilla, there was a big dust-up over the white food coloring a vendor was putting in their liquids..to make them look cool or something. There is a harmful-to-us chemical in the white coloring (titanium dioxide). Most of those threads got closed, the vendor stopped using the coloring and that was pretty much it. Yet you can still buy the coloring at the same supplier that the OP is talking about.
eta-that coloring has NO warning. *bangs head twice*
Since ECX is the only vendor we've ever seen 'pop up' when discussing this issue, I think it's safe to say this is the product/vendor White - Liquid food color 1oz - ecigExpress
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yup , thats who i was talking about also. not right to keep selling especially now after everything that happened. and Im not defending the guy but I am saying "what the heck about the supplier!" I kinda ghosted around those threads. didnt want to get involved and some seemed to disappear pretty quickly but its totally not fair that the dude gets black listed and the site selling it goes on and continues to sell it knowing everything. lets say its a candy place. well then hey its your own stupid fault for putting it in there. but a place called ecigexpress catering to vapers is really really low in my opinion. just a matter of time before it all comes back and someone else does it. knowing what you are putting in your juice is hard enough for the average guy working full time taking care of a family and being a mad scientist juice mixer on the side lol. you you would just naturally trust what you buy from that place is ok. why you would add that crap anyways is beyond me. maybe the "wow" factor.I know im constantly trying to figure out how to lower my flavors and still get great vapes to inhale less flavoring. the dude should have never put it in to begin with and ecigexpress should do away with all that coloring they have or change the name to we dont care what you do with this just pay us
Like! Double Like!
(underlined above) Really? wow. We saw the thread initially, but didn't know the poster that started it was somehow 'disciplined' by ECF. How can that happen (or be fair), when ECX is a 'registered supplier' here? How can a poster 'get into trouble' talking about (or using) products being sold by a 'registered supplier'? That's just nutzo.
I hear ya. I've ordered a few then realized "oops" this is for food use not inhalation. So I'll be doing some cooking experiments
lol
While I agree with everyone that registered ECF suppliers, (we assume are catering to us vapers,) I think it's kind of interesting that they sell all sorts of food flavors. The food flavors that are not "suitable for vaping" might be OK to use for vaping in some people's minds because they think they at least are not getting the thousands of damaging chemicals they were getting while using combustible tobacco products.
Those who chose to use the "not suitable" probably won't get "popcorn lung" because the people who worked in those factories were inhaling thousands times the amount we could possible "vape" in ecigs. That's my take anyway.
Those who chose to use the "not suitable" probably won't get "popcorn lung" because the people who worked in those factories were inhaling thousands times the amount we could possible "vape" in ecigs. That's my take anyway.
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Knocking myself out is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. Health concerns are the main reason I was attracted to vaping in the first place and I think that's probably true for most x smokers who have switched to vaping. There's just so many consumer product warnings out there that I have a hard time determining which ones are real and which ones are just legal protection mumbo jumbo that the lawyers make them put on there. Just read the warning label on a bottle of cold pills or the product info sheet your pharmacy provides with your prescriptions. It'll make you afraid to take anything.
BTW, I can't help but chuckle at myself when I look back at my younger years when I was gonna live forever and health was not much of a concern at all. Now days I'm reading all the warning labels, trying to eat all the right foods, exercising, etc. I've heard that normal is that brief period we go thru on our swing from one extreme to the other and I guess that's true for me hahaha.
BTW, I can't help but chuckle at myself when I look back at my younger years when I was gonna live forever and health was not much of a concern at all. Now days I'm reading all the warning labels, trying to eat all the right foods, exercising, etc. I've heard that normal is that brief period we go thru on our swing from one extreme to the other and I guess that's true for me hahaha.
OTOH, it is under a listing for DIY, the Y being for Yourself. And if you, yourself, want to put coloring in your own juice - knock yourself out
I worked a project for a popcorn factory when "popcorn lung" was just starting to be a "thing". Every day I walked off that site, it would take a week to get the butter flavoring washed out of my skin. The day after each of these site visits, the popcorn popping in the office microwave would be pretty intense as the smell of me would make everyone else crave popcorn. (And we had a bunch of it on hand due to the factory giving me a case when we signed the design contract.)
Unless you were actually there, it's tough to believe how much of that stuff was in the air. You could see it, feel it, but your nose became immune to it after a short while.
Not me. I am very appreciative of a company that actively protects its customers, e.g. TFA. And also very appreciative of ECF posters who share their awareness of potentially harmful contents.
I quit tobacco for a reason. And I personally pledge not to do business with any company that knowingly sells products of known or reasonably suspected harm without full disclosure. And I will encourage those around me to do the same.
Suppliers who exhibit such behavior need to explain, adjust, or get out of this business.
I quit tobacco for a reason. And I personally pledge not to do business with any company that knowingly sells products of known or reasonably suspected harm without full disclosure. And I will encourage those around me to do the same.
Suppliers who exhibit such behavior need to explain, adjust, or get out of this business.
I appreciate knowing. I want to be in the loop! Can you tell us which companies are selling the suspected harm and are not disclosing the harmful substance?
There are only two companies that regularly/consistently test & disclose the chemicals in their 'flavors'.
Flavourarts E-Cigarette line is tested to be diacetyl/similar diketones free...but not their Kitchen Magic line. Vendors of vaping flavors commonly sell from both lines - and do not indicate which is which. But both lines are clearly separate on the Flavourart site, so that's easy info to find.
TFA tests their flavors and discloses the results...giving descriptions like "trace amounts", "less than 1%", "less than .01%, etc. But apparently they don't regularly update this information into their product descriptions. However, the information can be found on their Spec Sheets & Components List
The easiest way we've found to use the list is to click on the word "list" to the far right of a flavor that has both Acetyl Proprionyl & Acetoin (Butter is one). Then once it loads, you can click on either chemical on the Butter page, and it will give you a list of ALL their flavors containing that specific chemical.
The info below is more than you requested, but we'd like to get this all into one post so that we can link others to it easily
With TFA we need to keep in mind the current safety guidelines. "Trace amounts" and percentages that appear to be "wee tiny" typically exceed the safety guidelines substantially! The CDC/NIOSH safety guidelines can be found here: CDC - NIOSH Update - Diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione: NIOSH Seeks Comment On Draft Criteria Document Basically, the exposure limits for nasal inhalation are 8-25 ppb (parts per billion). Around 8ppb is for 8-hour exposure, and 25ppb is for short term/15 minute exposure. A flavor containing "less than .01%" used at even 5%, will exceed the guideline amounts.
Also to note - the recommendations above are for "normal breathing", not for putting a tube into our mouth and inhaling these chemicals (mixed with dozens/hundreds of others), directly into our lungs. If you haven't seen the report of a person developing popcorn lung from breathing in the 'steam' from microwave popcorn (no intense factory exposure required) - you'll likely want to check out the story here http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/us/05popcorn.html?_r=1&
Since these synthetic 'artificial butters' are GRAS for ingestion, and since they are used to create far more than just the 'creams & custards', here is an OSHA list (Table 1) of of the typical flavors where they are commonly used: (you'll find they correspond with TFA's Component List)
This thread contains a LOT of great information http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/543911-acetyl-pyrazine-diacetyl-acetoine-help.html about FW's "claims" (and the crazy amount of these chemicals in one of their flavors), as well as links to an online "ppb calculator" that you can use to convert percentages to ppb.
It's all about making an INFORMED decision. For that, we need valid information & knowledge (on our part) and full, documented disclosure (on the vendor's part). At this point, the only two companies that are providing proof/evidence of anything are FA & TFA.
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I may have misunderstood. I thought there was knowledge that some of ECF's registered suppliers are selling us particularly harmful liquids. i.e. one of us received a liquid, had it tested and it contain diacetyl yet the supplier did not disclose that they use it....or something like that. I was already aware that FA & TFA offer up their testing etc. Thanks
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