Rapid Onset Nicotine Sensitivity

[allenwjones]

@StormFinch: Yes, I do like to inhale my cigars (can't really taste them properly if you don't) and I can report that this is a different sensation entirely.. perhaps it is because a cigar is unprocessed. But I have taken a card from your deck and have cut my juice in half with the non-nicotine version and I will vape on that lightly today to see if there is a threshold.

@searching4answers: You are the second person to suggest that this is a mental block of some kind, so perhaps some history is warranted.

Before I experimented with an e-vaporizer I carefully researched PG, VG, and nicotine on wikipedia and certain medical journals as well as many anecdotal sources. I was quite excited to see that PG/VG has a very low percentage of reactions or side-effects and that nicotine actually has certain medical benefits for Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, and Rheumatoid arthritis. As I have acquired Ankylosing spondylitis (hereditary form of rheumatoid arthritis) I have looked forward to vaping with enthusiasm. I am actually disappointed in my heightened sensitivity to isolated nicotine as compared to natural sources.

As to prior instances of anxiety, I had a stress episode 3 years ago which acts as a baseline reference for my tolerance to anxiety in general.. which was another reason why I was looking forward to vaping with nicotine.

 

[StormFinch]

Okay. After mulling this over for awhile, not to mention looking up dysphoria to make sure I knew what it meant, (I was partially correct) I came up with this. Technically, for most cigarette smokers those particular symptoms are from NOT getting enough nicotine. So now I have another question; are you vaping more than you smoked cigars? Is it possible that your system believes that you've began smoking again and isn't getting the amount of nicotine that it thinks it should? If cutting the amount of nicotine doesn't work, you might try upping the nicotine. Either use some of your wife's if she vapes a higher level, or order a higher level. Maybe try a 10 mg.

 

[allenwjones]

Wow, StormFinch.. the very idea seems provocative! Since I only smoked cigars on the weekend (one or two at most) I could believe that I have vaped far more than what I would have smoked, especially as I had been vaping every day. ~Oo

My primary concern with trying something like this would be that if I actually am experiencing a true sensitivity that I wouldn't want to cause any physical harm.. maybe I will save this for the weekend.


On a side note, I have been very lightly vaping today with a diluted mix of approximately 3mg/ml 2/3rds VG. So far, I have not had any very strong reactions, although I have noted some mild to medium equilibrium changes and anxiety but nothing I cannot manage. Perhaps time will tell.. but I certainly miss the nicotine when I am using zero mixes and I hope this is a manageable circumstance.

 

[StormFinch]

Wow Allen, it really does sound like you have a sensitivity to nicotine if you're having less symptoms with less nicotine but all the other factors are the same. That's so strange and I've never heard of such a thing! I know there's a nicotine allergy, but that's all physical symptoms like headache and nausea. I definitely can't recommend trying a higher nicotine level with these results. In fact, I hate to say it, but if it were me I think I would drop nicotine from my vaping altogether. I know that's not what you want to hear, but at least maybe the 0 nic will satisfy your hand to mouth while you're out and you can stick to your cigars on the weekend.

Edited to add; one other thought leaps to mind. Maybe try switching e-juice vendors? Are you using the same vendor for all your juices? I guess there might be a small possibility that you could be sensitive to that particular vendor's nic source. Maybe using a juice with a different nic could be the solution.

 

[allenwjones]

I have tried an alternate vendor for my e-liquid, with similar results. The only thing I have not tried to date is the WTA juice from Aroma, but I have been loathe to spend the extra amount on a higher nicotine source. But it does appear to be my last option (until someone decides to develop organic e-liquids) so it might be worth it to try.

Today, my first vape kicked up my anxiety a bit and I am feeling some of the other symptoms I reported. The only logical answers I can come to is that my body either does not metabolize the synthetic nicotine (thereby leading to a rapid build up) or that my body is adversely reacting to the nicotine in general. In either instance, you might be right about returning to a zero nic mix, but as I have heard reports of others acclimating I might just keep the mix very low and switch off with the zero for a week or two.

I cannot believe I am the only person who is experiencing this.. ~Oo

 

[lotsoffish]

I agree filter, that the scenario you outlined is unlikely.. but even if it were the case I wonder why with even a very low dose over the period of a week that overnight I became totally sensitive.

I am assuming that none of you have experienced anything remotely like this previously?

I have experienced this but it had absolutely nothing to do with nicotine. It sounds to me like you are experiencing panic attacks that may or may not be being triggered by your PV use.

You mentioned one of them lasted as long as a day. If you vaped a small amount of 6mg liquid and then suffered from these mental issues for a day I do not see how the nicotine caused this. I mean look at it this way, how much nicotine did you actually absorb and how long was that tiny amount in your bloodstream? And you are not displaying any type of allergic reaction to nicotine either.

Have you tried a good cigar since this malady struck? Do you have the same sensitivity to nicotine from a cigar as you do from a PV?

I had 2 "battles" with panic attacks, one when I was in my late teens and one when I was in my mid 30's. The first time I dealt with them they lasted about 6 years and I was 100% sure that they were caused from my abuse of smoking dope yet I didn't smoke any dope when I was in my mid 30's and that period of panic attacks. I blamed the second period on too much stress at work when I was working with a partner I didn't get along with. Those also went away after about 6 years even though my situation with this partner got worse instead of better. The reason I am boring you with this is because looking back on my experiences I now think I was 100% wrong on what was triggering this panic regarding smoking dope and a bad partnership which also means you may be 100% wrong regarding nicotine being your trigger.

Understand?

 

[lotsoffish]

@Herdo: We are all a little mental from time to time..

Ain't that the truth.

 

[ShogaNinja]

The only thing that comes to mind personally is that it really is too much nic. The symptoms sound similar, and obviously you aren't sensitive to the pg and vg since you've tried both as bases.

Question; do you or do you not inhale when you smoke cigars? From what I understand, some do, most don't. If you don't, then you really aren't getting all that much nicotine from at max 2 cigars per week. Since it's summarized that the nicotine from vapor is absorbed at least partially through the mucus membranes, whereas smoke particles are larger and must absorbed through the lungs, then you would be getting a larger dose of nicotine even if you vaped like a typical cigar smoker, aka not inhaling.

My second thought is that there might be a small possibility that your most recent bottle juice wasn't cut down correctly and is in fact a higher percentage than six. Although I have heard of your vendor, I haven't seen anything on their reputation. I don't really don't know and could be completely wrong, but I also buggered up calculations on my own diy e-juice once and know that accidents can indeed happen. Was the juice that you started reacting to a new bottle?

Either way, you might try cutting your nic juice 50/50 with the 0% that you ordered and see if it makes any difference.

Good luck, and let us know how things go.

I don't agree with this assessment. Nicotine is absorbed through contact. The size of the particles has no effect. The reason the lungs work best is because of surface area.

 

[ShogaNinja]

@StormFinch: Yes, I do like to inhale my cigars (can't really taste them properly if you don't) and I can report that this is a different sensation entirely.. perhaps it is because a cigar is unprocessed. But I have taken a card from your deck and have cut my juice in half with the non-nicotine version and I will vape on that lightly today to see if there is a threshold.

@searching4answers: You are the second person to suggest that this is a mental block of some kind, so perhaps some history is warranted.

Before I experimented with an e-vaporizer I carefully researched PG, VG, and nicotine on wikipedia and certain medical journals as well as many anecdotal sources. I was quite excited to see that PG/VG has a very low percentage of reactions or side-effects and that nicotine actually has certain medical benefits for Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, and Rheumatoid arthritis. As I have acquired Ankylosing spondylitis (hereditary form of rheumatoid arthritis) I have looked forward to vaping with enthusiasm. I am actually disappointed in my heightened sensitivity to isolated nicotine as compared to natural sources.

As to prior instances of anxiety, I had a stress episode 3 years ago which acts as a baseline reference for my tolerance to anxiety in general.. which was another reason why I was looking forward to vaping with nicotine.

don't forget that nicotine appears to spread cancer like crazy once you have it, though it is non-carcinogenic (as far as we know).

 

[Screwbag]

well, I have recently tried some samples of ULTRApure from innovapor. a very clean all VG liquid. super light flavor, great vapor and throat hit. a 3ml sample is cheap to try...

might be worth a try....

 

[CES]

Just an FYI, the nicotine in e-cigs is extracted from tobacco, not synthetic. Synthetic nicotine is incredibly expensive and not readily available. Most reputable vendors source is pharmaceutical grade nicotine, the same grade and type that is used for the patch and gum.

For me, anxiety associated with e-cig use was a signal to drop my nicotine levels, and as it turned out i needed to decrease my caffeine level too. It took me awhile to figure that out, because smoking would decrease anxiety, probably due to some of the other chemicals in cig smoke. But, my anxiety was mild, and lasted no more than 30 min.

If you're just having a cigar or two on weekends, you probably have little or no nicotine tolerance. (and possibly don't need it either) So you might have a fairly strong response to low levels of nicotine. Nicotine itself doesn't tend to have long lasting effects, so any physiological response to nicotine *should* be fairly short-lived. BUT, as lotsoffish said, anxiety also feeds on itself, so transient anxiety associated with nicotine could last longer if you're anxious about being anxious. Or anxiety about an anxiety response to nicotine could trigger anxiety. (i wish there was a way to say that more clearly) .

I think you said that you'd tested unflavored...if not you can see if there are differences between your response to flavored with nic, flavored without nic, unflavored with nic, unflavored without nic. You could also try nic gum, just to see if the anxiety is associated with nicotine or with e-cigs.

Your best bet is probably to use as little (or no) nic as you can get away with.

Good luck. I hope you get this worked out

 

[ShogaNinja]

I'm not a doctor either, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night!

I am going to go ahead and say that if you don't have a nicotine addiction (which it sounds like you do not) you really don't have any business vaping. That'd be like taking a non smoker and putting a patch on them or giving them gum. NO DOCTOR IN THE WORLD WOULD EVER DO THIS. The solution is simple: nicotine free e-juice, but even that's not a good solution. Since you're not an addict you really don't need to/shouldn't vape. This addiction holdover lies within your mind. Seek therapy or try meditation, acupuncture, hypnotism, etc.

 

[CES]

Particle size has to do with whether the vapor gets to the lungs. the data so far suggest that the nicotine form vapor is absorbed primarily by the mucosa in the mouth and nose, and that most of the vapor doesn't reach as deep in the lungs as smoke does (though i think the vapor particle size is larger, but i could be wrong)

Nicotine might increase the blood flow to existing tumors by promoting the growth of new blood vessels (neovascularization), but it doesn't exactly cause cancers to "spread like crazy".

 

[YKruss]

And to add to CES ^^^:

That study was done on mices and is inconclusive.

 

[allenwjones]

The reason I am boring you with this is because looking back on my experiences I now think I was 100% wrong on what was triggering this panic regarding smoking dope and a bad partnership which also means you may be 100% wrong regarding nicotine being your trigger.

I appreciate your insight.. but as I only have this response 30 seconds to a minute after vaping with nicotine, it is hard for me to imagine that this is not triggered by the vape. I have also kept a second clearomizer with a non-nicotine version of the same flavor to verify that the physical response is not present without the nicotine. This (imo) resolves whether it is the nicotine or base fluid.. assuming of course that I am not going mental as 3 of you have suggested

P.S. Thank you CES for your information and encouragement!

 

[ShogaNinja]

Particle size has to do with whether the vapor gets to the lungs. the data so far suggest that the nicotine form vapor is absorbed primarily by the mucosa in the mouth and nose, and that most of the vapor doesn't reach as deep in the lungs as smoke does (though i think the vapor particle size is larger, but i could be wrong)

Nicotine might increase the blood flow to existing tumors by promoting the growth of new blood vessels (neovascularization), but it doesn't exactly cause cancers to "spread like crazy".

It's been a while since I stayed at a Holiday Inn so my expertise is wearing out. So let me get to the point.

"Historically, nicotine has not been regarded as a carcinogen and the IARC has not evaluated nicotine in its standalone form and assigned it to an official carcinogen group. While no epidemiological evidence supports that nicotine alone acts as a carcinogen in the formation of human cancer, research over the last decade has identified nicotine's carcinogenic potential in animal models and cell culture.[71][72] Nicotine has been noted to directly cause cancer through a number of different mechanisms such as the activation of MAP Kinases.[73] Indirectly, nicotine increases cholinergic signalling (and adrenergic signalling in the case of colon cancer[74]), thereby impeding apoptosis (programmed cell death), promoting tumor growth, and activating growth factors and cellular mitogenic factors such as 5-LOX, and EGF. Nicotine also promotes cancer growth by stimulating angiogenesis and neovascularization.[75][76] In one study, nicotine administered to mice with tumors caused increases in tumor size (twofold increase), metastasis (nine-fold increase), and tumor recurrence (threefold increase)"

blahblahblah not a great read but focus on the part I put in bold. Yes it's one study and people can call it inconclusive or whatever but it's still a little scary. I don't ignore results like this as so many others choose to do to justify their continued addiction to nicotine.

Nicotine is absorbed in your mouth and saliva the second it touches it. The size of particles doesn't change the fact that it's still absorbing. Blood nicotine levels of smokers and vapers were done and the nicotine levels were found to be very similar. The commonly accepted numbers for nicotine absorption through vaping are widely various (between 10% and 40%). Though your suggestion does support the reason why vaping is healthier for the lungs. I think it's a given that all of these things require more study. Due to the vast amount of deaths caused by smoking each year I think it should be a priority to do these studies, but alas, I am not in charge.

No doctor will ever admit that vaping is as healthy as being a non-smoker, non-vaper. I think that these studies aren't likely going to arrive in a timely fashion to help us so it behooves us all to one day stop vaping as well.

 

[ShogaNinja]

Just an FYI, the nicotine in e-cigs is extracted from tobacco, not synthetic. Synthetic nicotine is incredibly expensive and not readily available. Most reputable vendors source is pharmaceutical grade nicotine, the same grade and type that is used for the patch and gum.

For me, anxiety associated with e-cig use was a signal to drop my nicotine levels, and as it turned out i needed to decrease my caffeine level too. It took me awhile to figure that out, because smoking would decrease anxiety, probably due to some of the other chemicals in cig smoke. But, my anxiety was mild, and lasted no more than 30 min.

If you're just having a cigar or two on weekends, you probably have little or no nicotine tolerance. (and possibly don't need it either) So you might have a fairly strong response to low levels of nicotine. Nicotine itself doesn't tend to have long lasting effects, so any physiological response to nicotine *should* be fairly short-lived. BUT, as lotsoffish said, anxiety also feeds on itself, so transient anxiety associated with nicotine could last longer if you're anxious about being anxious. Or anxiety about an anxiety response to nicotine could trigger anxiety. (i wish there was a way to say that more clearly) .

I think you said that you'd tested unflavored...if not you can see if there are differences between your response to flavored with nic, flavored without nic, unflavored with nic, unflavored without nic. You could also try nic gum, just to see if the anxiety is associated with nicotine or with e-cigs.

Your best bet is probably to use as little (or no) nic as you can get away with.

Good luck. I hope you get this worked out

Clearly he needs to get into DIY to control all the factors (and save lots of money finding out what those factors are) if he is going to go against Holiday Inn Doctor Medical Advice and just stop vaping.

If you want to find out how to DIY your own juice please click the link in my signature to the Vaper's Handbook and learn how to do so, and a great many other things about vaping.

 

[StormFinch]

I have tried an alternate vendor for my e-liquid, with similar results. The only thing I have not tried to date is the WTA juice from Aroma, but I have been loathe to spend the extra amount on a higher nicotine source. But it does appear to be my last option (until someone decides to develop organic e-liquids) so it might be worth it to try.

Today, my first vape kicked up my anxiety a bit and I am feeling some of the other symptoms I reported. The only logical answers I can come to is that my body either does not metabolize the synthetic nicotine (thereby leading to a rapid build up) or that my body is adversely reacting to the nicotine in general. In either instance, you might be right about returning to a zero nic mix, but as I have heard reports of others acclimating I might just keep the mix very low and switch off with the zero for a week or two.

I cannot believe I am the only person who is experiencing this.. ~Oo

Afraid that theory doesn't pan out Allen. Most, if not all vendors use tobacco derived nicotine, not synthetic. Synthetic costs too much to make so doesn't sell well. Heck, even the NRT manufacturers use the same tobacco derived base, thus the reason there are tiny amounts nitrosamines in both ejuice and NRTS. The only thing missing from the nicotine in ejuice, besides the myriad of other nasty chemicals cigarette companies add, is tobacco alkaloids... which come to think of it, might be a possibility.

From what I understand, and just be aware that nicotine by itself works for me so I haven't read much on it, the tobacco alkaloids are where we get the MAOIs from. We've had a number of members who had to result to the addition of snus to their vaping because ejuice alone just didn't give them what they needed. It's worth looking into I guess. At one time I know there was a group here that discussed it quite a bit. There's also a vendor that sells whole tobacco ejuice I believe. A search or two ought to give you someone with more answers, or at least theories.

lotsoffish makes a good point too. Did the day long occurrence happen after only one vaping session? If so, why would you have symptoms from something that left your bloodstream in approximately 10 minutes? Curious and curiouser.

 

[StormFinch]

I don't agree with this assessment. Nicotine is absorbed through contact. The size of the particles has no effect. The reason the lungs work best is because of surface area.

Actually, I had it backwards. I noticed this is being addressed further up the thread, but here's the word from Roly; http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-library/261114-tobacco-cigarette-vs-e-cigarette-nicotine-equivalency.html

 

[mwa102464]

Hello!

I have not been smoking cigarettes for several years but I do enjoy a cigar, on average one or two a week. I have noticed that over time, I have not enjoyed the restrictions on tobacco smoking in public places nor do I enjoy the side effects of smoke smell and bad breath associated with smoking. I have switched to an e-vaporizer hoping that I could free myself of the side effects of tobacco and relieve the social stigma surrounding smoking.

However, even with the lowest level of nicotine (6mg/ml) e-fluids I had noticed I have a very high sensitivity to the juice. What was more discouraging was that after one week of very limited use, the sensitivity increased to a point where I could not vape at all without experiencing higher levels of anxiety and tension as well as some dysphoria. When my sensitivity changed, it was very fast and the symptoms lasted for more than 2 hours, and at the worst point as much as a day.

Has anyone else experienced this kind of sensitivity, especially in this kind of timeframe?

Maybe your just the 1 in a million or 3 million and your overly Sensitive to Nic ? Everyone's DNA make up is different so it just very well could be your right and your just one who is sensitive to Nic and your body/Brain reacts a bit differently to this stimulant. I wonder what would happen if you tried the Nic Gum, or a patch, same reaction ? would be a good test to see I think.