Rationalize Vaping

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crxess

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Don't we reject their science for our science? For who's science is more correct and acurate that suits the purposes of opinion?


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

Not so far.
We have had open Science Debunk, Clearly I might add, the underlying Motivation for Junk Science Results which DO NOT APPLY to real world usage.
i.e. - Formaldehyde(excessive)

I do apologize in advance, but if you think the Royal College of Physicians(a Group of thousands or professionals) as well as many American Dr's. and Scientist and many other Dr's./Scientist world wide are all Just supporting us by falsifying facts.....well :facepalm:

Don't think I can challenge your assumptions without hurting your feelings.

L8r
:cool:
 

Tempesta

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Not everyone in the general public is swayed by the idiocy in the mass media. I have been able to have perfectly intelligent conversations about vaping with individuals. Unfortunately, converting people one at a time is not going to help enough in this state of emergency the FDA had put us into.
 

VNeil

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When I explain to people that the govt is lying about vaping, and wants to keep smokers smoking in order to protect its $32 Billion tobacco tax revenue stream most of them get it and a light goes off in their heads.

Then I might explain that open system vaping is simply difficult to tax at inordinate rates and the pieces start to fall together.

In the modern world most people have an attention span of about two sentences. So I keep it short and sweet and to the point. I don't argue the science up front, I just explain why the science is fabricated to support $32B and that seems to ring home. Most people are unaware of the scale of tobacco taxes.
 
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AJ Steele

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When I explain to people that the govt is lying about vaping, and wants to keep smokers smoking in order to protect its $32 Billion tobacco tax revenue stream most of them get it and a light goes off in their heads.

Then I might explain that open system vaping is simply difficult to tax at inordinate rates and the pieces start to fall together.

In the modern world most people have an attention span of about two sentences. So I keep it short and sweet and to the point. I don't argue the science up front, I just explain why the science is fabricated to support $32B and that seems to ring home. Most people are unaware of the scale of tobacco taxes.
Yes, good point!
 

DC2

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I think we need more of think tank going in this forum on how we are to win, and we need all vapers from all political walks of life.
There are two ways we can win this...
1) Congress
2) Courts

Our chances of winning in Congress are somewhat proportional to how much noise we make.
Making noise is our best hope anyway.

The problem is the mainstream media is not cooperating with us.
So keep on writing your representatives!!

And then there is the courts, and that is currently in progress.
If you think of anything else, let me know.
:)
 

tony46113

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When I explain to people that the govt is lying about vaping, and wants to keep smokers smoking in order to protect its $32 Billion tobacco tax revenue stream most of them get it and a light goes off in their heads.

Where does that 32B number come from? Are you talking per year in the United States? From what I've found, it's been between 14B and 17.5B per year since 2010.

I've also read that the projected tax revenue for 2017 is around 27.5B. Is this projection solely due to vaping products being considered tobacco products or am I missing something?
 

VNeil

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Where does that 32B number come from? Are you talking per year in the United States? From what I've found, it's been between 14B and 17.5B per year since 2010.

I've also read that the projected tax revenue for 2017 is around 27.5B. Is this projection solely due to vaping products being considered tobacco products or am I missing something?
$10B federal exercise tax
$15B state excise tax
$7B state MSA payments

Google it. Very enlightening and an easy search. My numbers are conservative because I've seen federal excise numbers of $13B and also estimates of taxable packs sold of 13B. Since the federal excise tax is $1.02, dollars equals packs. These are all recent annual numbers. Could be $40B total, happy hunting....
 

VNeil

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Google what exactly? That's what I was doing and came up with different numbers. But I came up with different numbers from different sites as well. Maybe I was only looking at federal tax ... Not sure. Are MSA payments made from each state to the federal government?
MSA payments are a private settlement between states and the Tobacco companies. Kind of like protection money because the settlement prevented private lawsuits and I guess govt lawsuits too. As best I can determine the Tobacco companies directly pay the states about $7B/year, based on volume. It is not accounted for as a tax so it is not listed in state excise taxes, which are collected differently. But a tax by any other name is a tax...

Google "tobacco tax revenue" and add federal, state, etc.
 

VNeil

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Google what exactly? That's what I was doing and came up with different numbers. But I came up with different numbers from different sites as well. Maybe I was only looking at federal tax ... Not sure. Are MSA payments made from each state to the federal government?
Federal excise tax:. $1.02/pk
State excise tax (avg):. $1.63
Total:. $2.65/pk

Total taxed USA sales:. 10-13 billion packs/year. Do the math... $26B To $34B depending who you ask. Add $7B for MSA, then salt as desired...
 

tony46113

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I agree, it is hard to determine. I was just looking for something from a reliable source that coincides with other searches and sources ... Every website I see is different and I understand that they are calculating different years or a certain time frame with different variables ... I'm interested and I vape. A non-smoker/non-vaper will not be interested enough to do the math or figure it out for themselves.

Billions and billions is a good enough argument though. Most of the people who you are making the argument to are not billionaires, so just saying "billion's" will make people think.
 

VNeil

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I agree, it is hard to determine. I was just looking for something from a reliable source that coincides with other searches and sources ... Every website I see is different and I understand that they are calculating different years or a certain time frame with different variables ... I'm interested and I vape. A non-smoker/non-vaper will not be interested enough to do the math or figure it out for themselves.

Billions and billions is a good enough argument though. Most of the people who you are making the argument to are not billionaires, so just saying "billion's" will make people think.
Just tell them at least 33 billion. That gets the point across. No one will audit you :)
And that is a conservative number.

Eta: billions and billions doesn't cut it with me. Ymmv
 
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VNeil

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Just tell them at least 33 billion. That gets the point across. No one will audit you :)
And that is a conservative number.

Eta: billions and billions doesn't cut it with me. Ymmv
PS. This does not count city and local taxes like NY and Chicago. Something else to Google and add to the pile.
 
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quittingvegas

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Whay I would say (tested on my wife and some other people):

I vape because I do not want to smoke. I tried other means - gums, patches - but they did not help, they are worthless. Very few people quitted smoking with their help. But e-cigs really help.
E-cigarettes are relatively new thing, and they are already threatening at least two big businesses - BT and BP. Both are loosing a big number of their customers to vaping, and it means loosing billions. Add to this bunch government, which is loosing billions in sin taxes and settlement money with BT. All of them are against vaping, and they are powerful.
Yes, there are some publication that pointed on carcinogens and other bad stuff in vapor, but by whom this "science" was made? By researchers who worked for decades for BT and BP. You know of course that if you over-fry (burn) a steak or even green peas, you'll get a lot of carcinogens. The same was done by those "researchers" with e-cig juice: they burn it and they do found carcinogens in a burnt juice. But in e-cigs juice is not burned, it is boiled. Big difference. The same as in boiled meat and burnt meat.
And you know, recently the Royal College of Physicians - very respected in medical world British organization - said that vaping at least (yes, at least) 95% safer than smoking. And so I am vaping, not smoking.


See this to me sums it up.
 

MyMagicMist

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Insinuation over Science?
Philosophy?

Sorry, may as well be debating which religion is correct, with an Atheist.

Fact - Smoker unable to quit by Accepted conventional means
Fact - Smoker now Vaping instead for Reduced Harm

Fact - Government does Approve Alternative treatment - When it so chooses

:cool:

No religion, sorry that what atheism means, no religion. But yes, I see the humor in your point too. :) Quite good.
 
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