Ratios and questions

[Aheadatime]

I'm curious as to whether or not vendors PG/VG ratios are 100% accurate or not. For example, if a liquid is advertised at 80/20, does this include flavors as well, implying that, together, the flavor-based PG, nic-based PG, and the PG itself add up to exactly 80% of the liquid?

If so, how do vendors go about selling 100% VG juices? This would imply that none of the flavors are PG or alc based, correct? How then would you dilute your EM or your menthol crystals? I was told that VG is a terrible 'carrier' for these two ingredients. Would something like ACV be 'allowed' in a 100% VG juice? Which vendors even sell 100% VG based flavors? Given Boba Bounty's popularity, for example, I would have to assume that there are indeed mass-produced VG-only flavors (combined with perhaps Ben's personal NET methods).

Sorry if these questions seemed jumbled. Just brainstorming the precision of vendors' methods, and the whole 100% VG possibility (EM, menthol, etc).

 

[DeeDee1234]

good question.. I have been looking at the menthol crytals myself and all the info I have found says they need to be desolved in pga or pg that vg will not work. So.... maybe they are mostly vg?

 

[psycheval]

The problem with VG is getting the flavor in it. There is a whole lot of chemistry there I do not know and do not wish to touch. I use high % VG mixes. I have used some VG based flavors. They will seperate. I have used one brand that will actually do what is nothing but steeping in the bottle it comes in and grew in intensity the longer I had it. I will not name names. That is just my experience. Yours might not be.
I do not know but I assume they are heating it to whatever the optimal temperature they have decided for whatever period of time to infuse the flavor. I have not done it but I suspect you could use VG instead of PG you just have to develop a system for infusing it. Not really any other way to get it in there besides beating it in. That's the same thing you are doing by trying to acclerate the steeping process in any way on your own mixes.
Cooking on the stove top does the same thing. Throw all the ingredients in and eat it as soon as it's hot will taste drastically different from a 1hr slow cook.
I do EM just the way Scubabatdan says your supposed to and then I cut it with same amount VG after I dissolve it. I then set about steeping it just like I would a finished mix. My intention is a 50/50 flavor to help that infusion process by steeping into whatever VG I put in. Since a higher percentage of VG is already steeped, it is going to impart that on the final blend.

 

[DeeDee1234]

The problem with VG is getting the flavor in it. There is a whole lot of chemistry there I do not know and do not wish to touch. I use high % VG mixes. I have used some VG based flavors. They will seperate. I have used one brand that will actually do what is nothing but steeping in the bottle it comes in and grew in intensity the longer I had it. I will not name names. That is just my experience. Yours might not be.
I do not know but I assume they are heating it to whatever the optimal temperature they have decided for whatever period of time to infuse the flavor. I have not done it but I suspect you could use VG instead of PG you just have to develop a system for infusing it. Not really any other way to get it in there besides beating it in. That's the same thing you are doing by trying to acclerate the steeping process in any way on your own mixes.
Cooking on the stove top does the same thing. Throw all the ingredients in and eat it as soon as it's hot will taste drastically different from a 1hr slow cook.
I do EM just the way Scubabatdan says your supposed to and then I cut it with same amount VG after I dissolve it. I then set about steeping it just like I would a finished mix. My intention is a 50/50 flavor to help that infusion process by steeping into whatever VG I put in. Since a higher percentage of VG is already steeped, it is going to impart that on the final blend.

Do you double the amount of crytals in the pg and then cut it by 50%

 

[psycheval]

[/B]


Do you double the amount of crytals in the pg and then cut it by 50%

No I do not. I double my mixing percentages and use a calculator that will figure all the multiples. eJuiceMeUp or ecigvape. I am also giving a larger amount of fine flavor control doing this. I have seen examples here of adding 1ml of flavor to 4ml of liquid just to make a flavor not a finished mix. It allows me to do the same and infuse the VG. I do this with all my flavors. Tobacco Blend (PG) TFA included.
The Tobacco Blend (PG) TFA I add equal PG to whatever comes in the bottle I order just to get it out of the bottle and viable to be reliably measured. Then use 0.1 ml to 10ml PG with 1% Artificial Sweetener (PG) TFA. Gets me away from drops and it's thick enough and concentated enough your not diluting it to a point that will register. Stuff is awesome thick to start with. I then add VG to that at 10 ml. Just equal amounts.
Fine control and infusion are the benefits I'm seeing. But the drawback is the higher levels of base nic I have to use to compensate for the increased volume of the flavor without more flavor. Just for the high percentage mixes but I still have to use 60mg/ml for some to get to 24mg/ml finished.
I am also mixing my nicotine base at PG25/VG75 and my Final mixes at PG35/VG65 or PG30/VG70. You step out of that and you start getting problems keeping up the nicotine percentage. That's if it's necessary for you. Hours at a calculator for that.
Play with what I describe or anybody else describes if you can and see if it works. I have done lot's of that. A recipe didn't exist till somebody thought of it or a method either. Don't be afraid to try. I studied for months before picking up an ecig and haven't stopped yet. All I did was adapt some styles and theories to something I can work with. It may not prove to be any better than anyone else's but nobody else is doing it or if they are they aren't telling. And to me, since it's what I use VG is an issue that needs to be addressed from a personal standpoint. I will share what I learn and what I find. Take my way and make it better or find a way on your own. Just put out there what you do, it might cause somebody else to come up with something better.

 

[psycheval]

I'm still getting used to posting stuff and might need to clarify something. I put a couple recipes out here on the forum. They are not my percentages they are for normal flavoring percentages that I gave there. Didn't want to cause any confusion for someone reading this post and seeing how I do my percentages and look at those and think they are doubled. They are not. They are also meant to show what you are able to do when mixing flavors. Especially lots of them. If you will notice those percentages. I am not using any more flavoring than is used in 100% PG blends. I am not using more on any of my flavors in my mixes because of the VG. I start at 1% to test and build from there. Lot's of stuff stays at 1-2% most are 3-4%. Koolada being a drastic exception. Don't know if anyone knows why I haven't studied that reason yet. I use 10% with it but that's what they say to use any way. It doesn't like VG. There is an oily component to it I have not studied as to what it is and why it's there. Suspect ethyl alcohol. I'm a menthol everyday vaper too. Ice Cold with lot's of tobacco. Haven't gotten to it yet.

 

[psycheval]

"http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/members/107955/duaneneveu.html
I feel your pain...truly.

I first started doing DIY after only vaping for about a month. Immediately, I came to greatly respect the e-juice vendors whose offerings I enjoyed. There's a lot of trial and error involved, and "nailing it" comes after diligent experimentation.

My suspicion is that because we don't enjoy any decent level of consistency amongst ourselves in regards to mixing practices, and because those who have established hard and fast rules for flavours in their "vape-pantry" are often vendors, keys to success remain elusive...not because they aren't obtainable, but because they're guarded. Having worked so hard to decipher the truth, most would balk at the thought of sharing full details.

Having been a restauranteur for many years, my palate has become fairly highly developed, and my prowess in a kitchen is above average (I'd say, though my wife, friends, and family tend to agree). Still, much to my dismay, I've found that mixing e-juice simply can't be approached in the same way as the culinary arts. From time to time one can find success with "a dash of this, or a smidgen of that", but generally it's not at all like a food recipe. Flavourings each have their optimal ratio, but adding a second won't necessarily be a compliment because they don't all play well together at just any ratio...oh yeah, and don't even get me started about subjective tastes.

I would think that you'd all agree that expecting three to five experiments to arrive at a good single flavour isn't at all unreasonable, or even terribly difficult. The trouble begins when we try to combine singular flavours that we love in the hopes that we'll create that magic ADV with the satisfying nuances and subtleties we set out to produce. There's a bit of alchemy and magic to that, and a whole lot of kitchen sink batches to get through first.

As a result, a few weeks ago I went back to the drawing board. I've begun doing several single-flavour batches of the nearly eighty flavours in my repertoire to better become intimate with their characteristics, making painstaking notes all the while. It's ridiculously time consuming and often frustrating, but I hope to eventually know them all as well as I understand the herbs and spices that I've worked with for decades. Maybe then, I'll produce a multi-faceted juice that the masses love, just as a handful of vendors have managed with some of their creations.

It took me years to hone my skills and understanding in becoming a good cook. I fully expect the same will be required in the production of fantastic e-juice. "

From: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/415510-why-there-no-giudelines.html

Odds are my mixes can't be duplicated to be even remotely close to what I'm tasting unless you do exactly what I do. There are still to many unknowns here and too much studying to be done on how it should be done. This little thread we're on right here points to one of the reasons why. I can still put out there what my percentages are because somebody else might look at that recipe and go "Oh let me try this" and like what ever they had to do to get there. I bet you can't do it at PG35/VG75 any other way at the moment and use my percentages and still get the flavor I am. Unless you cook it. Next week somebody might have the perfect solution.

 

[Aheadatime]

I do EM just the way Scubabatdan says your supposed to and then I cut it with same amount VG after I dissolve it. I then set about steeping it just like I would a finished mix. My intention is a 50/50 flavor to help that infusion process by steeping into whatever VG I put in. Since a higher percentage of VG is already steeped, it is going to impart that on the final blend.

My apologies if I'm misunderstanding your post, but wouldn't halving the PG within the PG-based flavor in question by adding an equal amount of VG and consequently doubling your % equate to the same amount of PG in the final product? I am not familiar with Scubabatdan's EM methods btw, I'll have to look that up.

 

[psycheval]

The only flavor I double PG in is Tobacco Blend (PG) TFA. Just to get it into a state that is easier to handle than the glob of goo it comes as. Everything else gets equal VG to whatever amount of PG based flavoring you have in your bottle.

Ethyl Maltol
1/4 tsp = 8ml add 10ml PG = 10% Ethyl Maltol Solution PG
That's Scubabatdan's method.

Mine is :
Ethyl Maltol
1/4 tsp = 8ml add 10ml PG + 10ml VG = 5% Ethyl Maltol Solution PG50/VG50

Flavoring example for normal flavors:
8ml Chocolate Flavor (PG) + 8ml VG= 16ml Chocolate Flavor PG50/VG50

Tobacco Blend (PG)
4ml Tobacco Blend PG + 4ml PG= 8ml Tobacco Blend (PG) + 8ml Vg = 16ml Tobacco Blend PG50/VG50

This is confusing stuff till you get it in your head. Just takes time.

 

[DeeDee1234]

From what I am seeing here you are cutting all your flavors by 50% vg except the tobacco blend which is cut 50% pg and then 50 again with vg. The final tobacco ratio is 25 % strengh of the original flavor. All other's are 50% strengh of the orignal. You then basically use double the amount that someone else would use. Example mixer A: uses 5% chcolate flavor and you wanted to try his recipe you would use 10% chocolate flavor to accieve the same flavor consentration.

 

[psycheval]

Correct. You have to make the flavor dilution up somewhere. It's comes at the cost of taking away from the amount of PG or VG base you add. It also cuts into your Nicotine base if you have lots of flavoring.
All I'm doing basically is premixing. I am premixing in a very small amount. I have greater control over the flavor concentration with it cut in half than I do at full concentration. This allows me to fine tune this or that flavor much easier than you can at full blown percentages. 1ml cut 50/50 is half of the flavor as 1ml pure flavor. Your adding PG or VG base anyway to get your mix. I'm just premixing a small amount of it not the whole blend. Scrapings, i.e. leaving part of the last blend in the bottle and just adding new in with it, are basically what this method is doing. I'm doing it from the start not the finish. I'm pre-steeping basically. That is why my actual flavor percentages are the same as if I was using pure PG base and not lots of VG. It's infusing that VG before I mix and I've got to add PG/VG to get my ratio anyway. I am looking at a bottle that has coffee in it that typically seperates out. There is no seperation in this bottle. It has been setting untouched since last night. It steeped in 24hrs. Granted I did a lot of stuff to it in that 24hrs to get it there.

This is my personal actual tobacco blend for reference on what the #'s look like:

Chocolate Tobacco

 

[psycheval]

There are several chemical reactions you have to cause in the making of your juice. I am not a Chemist. I am making assumptions on my own observations and the gleanings I have from others.

1. When you combine your blend everything in it has to try and blend with everything else. 1 chemical reaction for each component all at once.

2. If a base component (PG or VG) is already infused with said flavor it is going to be easier for that base component to impart that flavor on other molecules of the same type. It is easier for VG to blend with VG than PG and vice-versa.

3. Control the reactions. Create multiple. Not one. At different times. With the least amount of components possible. Refer back to #2.

4. Remember air plays what is seeming to be a very major role in the steeping process. Yes, just the good old stuff your breathing. Air causes it's own set of reactions to happen.

4. Pre-steeping = less final blend steeping time. Makes the multiple reactions happen. Refer back to #1.

There has got to be some folks here that can weigh in on this.
I am also assuming by the flavors I am getting and comparing it to Commercial and Custom eLiquids that I am on to something. All this is is a method. All the wondering about how the Custom and Commercial stuff is made. All they have done is develop a method that only they have. That's why you can't duplicate it.

 

[Aheadatime]

I hear what you're saying, and I will indeed experiment with the VG dilution process you're explaining. I'm still wondering, though, how to get a completely VG-based eliquid (water would be fine). In your example, you have an EM solution that is PG based diluted with VG so the end result would be 10ml PG 10ml VG 5% EM. If you need to double this percentage in a mix to get the same EM taste that you would get from 1% of the original 10% EM solution, then ultimately the juice still has the same amount of PG derived from the EM solution.

1% of 10% EM PG solution in a 10ml batch = 1ml PG
2% of 5% VG-diluted PG solution in a 10ml batch = 1ml PG

Technically, I could get the same result by simply avoiding this whole process and having that 1ml VG gained in the process come from my base mix or my nic mix. The only benefit I see to using this method is the pre-steeping factor and the larger amount of control one gains when dealing with smaller percentages. But in regards to eliminating the PG, this doesn't help unless I'm content with lowering the EM strength altogether, ie, sticking with the original 1% calling when dealing with the diluted version, which would cut my PG content in half (along with the EM effect).

Have you experimented with trying to dissolve EM or menthol crystals in water or VG brought to low heat? I assume this is a necessity if one wishes to have either of these ingredients in a '100% VG' mix.

 

[psycheval]

No you do not have to use any PG. I tried this route when I started. I've done 100% VG. Not to the EM but in general. I don't see why there is any reason to use PG in any form. The issue with VG that there is no getting around is it is thick. It does not flow good by itself. It has to be cut. Water is the best for this but there is a limit to how much water you can add before you start getting issues that too much water causes. Just plain water doesn't flow right by itself. The reason I only use 10% water on the VG. If your willing to limit yourself to using carts only then no big deal. If you want to be able to use a mix that will flow correctly in about anything use 25-40% PG in the Final blend. The PG free thing enticed me from the start too but trial and error has shown that I can keep the VG % very high. Try it your way. Make very small batches and try it. That's the only thing that will solve your questions. The VG will present problems with what is basically just steeping it so it absorbs the flavor keep that in mind, dissolve a little EM in some VG and see how long it takes. Doesn't matter what you do or how you do it. If you find something just post on it.

 

[Aheadatime]

No you do not have to use any PG. I tried this route when I started. I've done 100% VG. Not to the EM but in general. I don't see why there is any reason to use PG in any form. The issue with VG that there is no getting around is it is thick. It does not flow good by itself. It has to be cut. Water is the best for this but there is a limit to how much water you can add before you start getting issues that too much water causes. Just plain water doesn't flow right by itself. The reason I only use 10% water on the VG. If your willing to limit yourself to using carts only then no big deal. If you want to be able to use a mix that will flow correctly in about anything use 25-40% PG in the Final blend. The PG free thing enticed me from the start too but trial and error has shown that I can keep the VG % very high. Try it your way. Make very small batches and try it. That's the only thing that will solve your questions. The VG will present problems with what is basically just steeping it so it absorbs the flavor keep that in mind, dissolve a little EM in some VG and see how long it takes. Doesn't matter what you do or how you do it. If you find something just post on it.

Yeah I'll probably have to experiment with it personally. Perhaps diluting EM in water would work, so long as the ratios are correct (gram to ml), and that way, the EM will help take away some of the viscosity of the juice. If it required 10% distilled water dilute, and I used 2% water-based EM, I would only need 8% distilled at that point. Guess I'll have to get my hands wet. I just thought the community would have more experience in the VG-only field, especially given the popularity of a juice like Boba's.

 

[psycheval]

Not many people using lots of VG or all VG from appearances. Seems no one knows what to do with it. So they don't use it. OR they know and aren't telling. I've done more and learned more about how VG acts on my own than I can find posts on how to treat it. Got to be a radical or two in every bunch I guess. Somebody has to be radical enough to figure it out.