? re: LR atty w/ std batt's

[rshack]

As I understand it, LR atty's should not be used with batteries of less than 450 mah. If they are, then they will demand more from the battery than the battery can properly deliver, causing the battery to have an early death. (Is this more-or-less correct?)

How is the 450 mah limit determined? And how might one guestimate the cost of bending that rule? I ask because I prefer to use a pen-style for stealth in certain public situations, and am thinking about using a KR808D mega batt (thin but longer, 380 mah). I imagine that bending the rule by 70 mah may produce less-dreadful battery consequences than with a weaker battery, but by how much. Is there any way to figure this out ahead of time before I start killing batteries?

 

[Switched]

As I understand it, LR atty's should not be used with batteries of less than 450 mah. If they are, then they will demand more from the battery than the battery can properly deliver, causing the battery to have an early death. (Is this more-or-less correct?)

How is the 450 mah limit determined? And how might one guestimate the cost of bending that rule? I ask because I prefer to use a pen-style for stealth in certain public situations, and am thinking about using a KR808D mega batt (thin but longer, 380 mah). I imagine that bending the rule by 70 mah may produce less-dreadful battery consequences than with a weaker battery, but by how much. Is there any way to figure this out ahead of time before I start killing batteries?

That was a number that got arbitrarily tossed around after the LRs hit the market after the spring vapefest. The number is bogus. Although it did mention at the time on the vendor's site <<to be used with 450mAh High Drain batteries which are LiMn or IMR. Many have dismissed the high drain part (high drain was not very popular at the time) and just used the mAh rating and thought they were OK. Hence why you see many vaping LRs on their 650mAh eGo batts.

The smallest batt that I know of that can be utilised for LR is the AW IMR 14500 600mAh with a max discharge rate of 4A.

 

[rshack]

That was a number that got arbitrarily tossed around after the LRs hit the market after the spring vapefest. The number is bogus. Although it did mention at the time on the vendor's site <<to be used with 450mAh High Drain batteries which are LiMn or IMR. Many have dismissed the high drain part (high drain was not very popular at the time) and just used the mAh rating and thought they were OK. Hence why you see many vaping LRs on their 650mAh eGo batts.

The smallest batt that I know of that can be utilised for LR is the AW IMR 14500 600mAh with a max discharge rate of 4A.

Thanks for replying.

OK, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that 450 mah was just a fabricated number that's way too low, and that at least 600 mah is required? Meanwhile, I see that liberty-flights says 380 mah is the right number. I don't mean to be disrespectful to either you or them, or to the people who said 450 mah, I just wish we had an actual fact-and-theory based (and therefore calculation-based) foundation for knowing what the right number is (more or less).

Am I correct in guessing that the correct number (whatever it is) will be different, based on the ohms of the LR atty? It's gotta be, right? So, what I really want to know is the minimum battery mah required for appropriate use of the various LR ohm values. Can this really be such a mystery? isn't there a reasonable ballpark calc for figuring this out? If there is not, and this really is a matter of just guessing and/or observing when batteries die, then it's not just about electricity and batteries, is it? What am I missing?

 

[Switched]

Don't get hung up on mAh, high drain battery is key here IMR most are orange

 

[Para]

I ask because I prefer to use a pen-style for stealth in certain public situations, and am thinking about using a KR808D mega batt (thin but longer, 380 mah).

Another stealth option and one that keeps you within the specs (14500 battery) is to mod out a 1AA battery box. It's pretty dawgone small and can be modded even more "stealthy" by dropping the batt connector further into the box. Just a option....

 

[Murdock Ruml]

before i swapped to E2s i used to use LR attys on my sit n go
Mega 510 Sit and Go USB Passthrough

and i got 5 months of good use out of the battery before it started not keeping a good charge. and these are pretty much just like maga batteries and when compared to the amount i would spend on smokes $15 every 5 months is not that bad. i have always considered everything disposable though. i mean i use to spend a lot more money on smokes and i have nothing to show for it. with the batteries i at least get a connector that i get to keep. i am now using a shortie E2 with a syringe mod on the same type battery. i was kind of worried about making the swap from my LRs but these seem to be doing amazing. an now i don't have to constantly drip.

 

[rtfm]

i am now using a shortie E2 with a syringe mod on the same type battery. i was kind of worried about making the swap from my LRs but these seem to be doing amazing. an now i don't have to constantly drip.

What ohm E2 are you using? Any wicking issues?
Thanks

 

[Murdock Ruml]

the 2.4 - 2.6 and i have have not had any wicking issues. well short of the time i had the fill washer pushed down to tight(easy fix though). i have not tried the XLs but have read that they seem to have the problem with wicking. the regular (shorties) are wicking great for me. and that is without a PTB mod. i have not actualy tried them stock though. because i syringe mod them straight out of the box. cut the old tube off, adjust the wick to make sure it reached the bottom, torch the wick, give it a dry burn. push the cut piece of syringe on. put in the fill washer ,fill, and put a drip tip on. and vape away. no leaks yet. flavor=amazing, vapor=amazing, throat hit=not as good as a LR atty but doable. but for me, by far, the best thing about these is no gurgling atty spitting juice in my mouth. just a good flavored vape

 

[rshack]

Don't get hung up on mAh, high drain battery is key here IMR most are orange

I don't see how high drain is the key when my question has nothing to do with optimal batteries. My question has nothing to do with ugly high performance batteries. I am familiar with ugly high performance batteries, and I use them in mods at home and in the car. My question has zero to do with that.

My question is about using a KR808D-1 380 mah battery for a specific purpose. What I'm trying to find out is the details about how different atty ohm-age will affect the lifespan of that battery. I already know the generic platitudes about it, and what I'm trying to learn is more about how specific ohm atty's will likely affect the lifespan. Now, I can understand how you might not know anything about that, because I don't either. But that's what I'm trying to find out about.

 

[roadrash]

I don't see how high drain is the key when my question has nothing to do with optimal batteries. My question has nothing to do with ugly high performance batteries. I am familiar with ugly high performance batteries, and I use them in mods at home and in the car. My question has zero to do with that.

My question is about using a KR808D-1 380 mah battery for a specific purpose. What I'm trying to find out is the details about how different atty ohm-age will affect the lifespan of that battery. I already know the generic platitudes about it, and what I'm trying to learn is more about how specific ohm atty's will likely affect the lifespan. Now, I can understand how you might not know anything about that, because I don't either. But that's what I'm trying to find out about.

the best way to find out is to do it with the 808 batt and see how long it last. I have used a manual 510 bat with a lr atty off and on for over 6 months and it is still working. I cant tell you how many hours or how much juice I used. all I know is it works.

 

[AttyPops]

Oh man.... I don't know why ... Given the response to switched.... but I like adding 2 cents to discussions....lol. Here goes.

My understanding is that there are often TWO issues when dealing with LR atties and e-cig devices:
1) The battery drain factor - as discussed above
2) The e-cig power-supply (AKA "stock" e-cig battery) with built-in circuitry (PCB - printed circuit board).

#1 is discussed above. #2.... you will see listed as MOSFET and LR combination warnings. So, for your KR808D mega, you have to realize that it has a battery inside and a PCB that controls it. The PCB is only able to handle so much current. The more you overload it, the more likely it is to fail. Using an LR atty with std batteries (even the eGo style batts) often, but not always, leads to the premature death of the circuitry regardless of mAh ratings of the battery. This often presents itself as button failure, or flaky charging, etc. One can assume this will vary somewhat due to manufacturing differences, model revisions, and component ratings. YMMV as they say.

Try it. Just don't be surprised if it fails early. Have a backup. Lots of people like LR atties on decent mAh batteries. They just take their chances.

The other caveat is that the small batteries don't last long as it is, even with normal ohms. LR's really drain em fast. Have a stack of em ready.

P.S. LR means 1.5 ohms. Others (closer to 2.0 ohms) may not stress the PCB as much...

 

[Java_Az]

Really it should be what is the batteries max discharge amp rate. It never should have been a Mah rating , but thats all they give you with ecig batteries. LR atomizers require more amps then regular ones. So if your continually taking your battery up to the max discharge amps or higher it just wont last as long. To give you an idea a 1.5ohm LR atomizer @ 3.2 volts wants 2.1 amps, Compared to a reg atomizer @ 2.3 ohm ,3.2volts wants 1.3 amps. Might not look like much of a difference but to a small battery it is. Just a general rule not 100% but the skinnier the battery the less max output amps it is rated at. A skinny high drain would be a exception to the rule. High drain just means it is capable of putting out more max amps then a regular drain. Having said that there is no way to tell if your battery can handle a LR atomizer or not. At least not without the PV makers including max rated AMP,s along with the MAh rating. But my opinion is that any small cigarette sized battery is going to not last as long as it would using reg ohm atomizers. I would even go as far as saying ego type batteries wont last as long too. Although they are more suited to handle the amps then the small batts.

 

[Switched]

I don't see how high drain is the key when my question has nothing to do with optimal batteries. My question has nothing to do with ugly high performance batteries. I am familiar with ugly high performance batteries, and I use them in mods at home and in the car. My question has zero to do with that.

My question is about using a KR808D-1 380 mah battery for a specific purpose. What I'm trying to find out is the details about how different atty ohm-age will affect the lifespan of that battery. I already know the generic platitudes about it, and what I'm trying to learn is more about how specific ohm atty's will likely affect the lifespan. Now, I can understand how you might not know anything about that, because I don't either. But that's what I'm trying to find out about.

Since you seem so well informed, I will be as condescending as you. You can expect a decrease in lifespan of your KR8 battery in the vicinity of 35-50%. See no mAh rating or HD mumbo jumbo. Is that plain enough?

In closing, vendors sell stuff and vapers buy stuff.

 

[rshack]

... for your KR808D mega, you have to realize that it has a battery inside and a PCB that controls it. The PCB is only able to handle so much current. The more you overload it, the more likely it is to fail.

[stuff deleted]

P.S. LR means 1.5 ohms. Others (closer to 2.0 ohms) may not stress the PCB as much...

OK, thanks. I had pretty much figured the gist of that, but I had no news about the internal PCB... so thanks for teaching me something.

Given that tidbit, then I guess what I'm trying to find out is how much ohm-age the PCB inside the 380mah battery can handle without being asked to do too much. I'm sure that one way is to just start using-and-killing them and look for patterns, but I was hoping there was a less expensive, less destructive way to find out. If I were to dissect a battery to get to the PCB, is there a way to test it to see at what level it starts getting stressed? Or is this something where the only route to knowledge is trial-and-error and dead-battery counts?

 

[rshack]

Really it should be what is the batteries max discharge amp rate. It never should have been a Mah rating , but thats all they give you with ecig batteries. LR atomizers require more amps then regular ones. So if your continually taking your battery up to the max discharge amps or higher it just wont last as long. To give you an idea a 1.5ohm LR atomizer @ 3.2 volts wants 2.1 amps, Compared to a reg atomizer @ 2.3 ohm ,3.2volts wants 1.3 amps. Might not look like much of a difference but to a small battery it is. Just a general rule not 100% but the skinnier the battery the less max output amps it is rated at. A skinny high drain would be a exception to the rule. High drain just means it is capable of putting out more max amps then a regular drain. Having said that there is no way to tell if your battery can handle a LR atomizer or not. At least not without the PV makers including max rated AMP,s along with the MAh rating. But my opinion is that any small cigarette sized battery is going to not last as long as it would using reg ohm atomizers. I would even go as far as saying ego type batteries wont last as long too. Although they are more suited to handle the amps then the small batts.

Thanks for that. So, Ohm's Law means that we have the counter-intuitive reality that using stronger batteries (380mah 3.7v vs. less-mah 3.2v 510 batt's) makes the problem worse instead of better because it increases the amps being demanded (is this right?)

 

[rshack]

Since you seem so well informed, I will be as condescending as you. You can expect a decrease in lifespan of your KR8 battery in the vicinity of 35-50%. See no mAh rating or HD mumbo jumbo. Is that plain enough?

In closing, vendors sell stuff and vapers buy stuff.

Well, I am not well informed, which is why I was asking.

Sorry if I sounded snarky to you, this is a case of internet words not having tone-of-voice in them, so the reader might get a signal different than the signal that was sent. I wasn't trying to be a jerk, I was just trying to clarify that I was not asking about using optimal batteries inside a mod but rather was asking about using the stoutest KR808D-1 batt's. I apologize for not making that clear and instead giving the wrong impression.

As for the 35%-50% decrease in the battery lifespan... is this something you observed by killing them that way, or is it based on some other attributes of the battery and atty, or what? (Tension disclaimer: Am not trying to grill you, just trying to get clear about what you're telling me.)

 

[rshack]

Another stealth option and one that keeps you within the specs (14500 battery) is to mod out a 1AA battery box. It's pretty dawgone small and can be modded even more "stealthy" by dropping the batt connector further into the box. Just a option....

I'm using something similar to that as I write this. I agree that is small enough to be easily hidden from view. What I'm trying to do is find the best thing that can be "hidden in plain sight", something that I can use without concealment. I've had good luck doing that by combining black KR808D-1 batteries with 510 atty's, I'm just trying to fine tune that combination, that's all. And, since I'm not well educated in electronics, I guess I kinda assumed that everything is readily measurable, but it looks like I'm wrong about that (my own ignorance).

 

[misterD]

batts with STD?? am i the only one that thought it was funny?

 

[Switched]

Well, I am not well informed, which is why I was asking.

Sorry if I sounded snarky to you, this is a case of internet words not having tone-of-voice in them, so the reader might get a signal different than the signal that was sent. I wasn't trying to be a jerk, I was just trying to clarify that I was not asking about using optimal batteries inside a mod but rather was asking about using the stoutest KR808D-1 batt's. I apologize for not making that clear and instead giving the wrong impression.

As for the 35%-50% decrease in the battery lifespan... is this something you observed by killing them that way, or is it based on some other attributes of the battery and atty, or what? (Tension disclaimer: Am not trying to grill you, just trying to get clear about what you're telling me.)

True, internet coms are not the best way to convey body language. You must also understand that many have seen this Q before where the majority of folks only want to hear what they want to hear - that using an LR atty on a stock battery is OK. Well everybody else is doing it? ... and so on and so on.

Your 380mAh batt is capable of withstanding 0.38A (mAh divided by 1000) for one hour whilst a new 1.5Ohm atty is demanding 2.5A at 3.7V (KR8s run at 3.7 I believe). That is the rule of thumb applied with a battery having a discharge capacity (or C rating) or 1. When the C rating is not known, it is to be understood as 1. This is also accepted by the industry. ***fire series batts have a C rating of 1.5, which would mean your KR8 could possibly withstand a current draw of 0.38*1.5= 0.57A. Still far short from the req'd 2.5A.

As batteries are stressed, internal resistance increases exponentially. Depending on the quality of the chemistry, this may vary between mfrs. Internal resistance is a natural occuring process of battery use.

Internal battery resistance

Battery information from Battery University

Vape Central: Battery - FAQ (layman's terms)

 

[rshack]

True, internet coms are not the best way to convey body language. You must also understand that many have seen this Q before where the majority of folks only want to hear what they want to hear - that using an LR atty on a stock battery is OK. Well everybody else is doing it? ... and so on and so on.

Your 380mAh batt is capable of withstanding 0.38A (mAh divided by 1000) for one hour whilst a new 1.5Ohm atty is demanding 2.5A at 3.7V (KR8s run at 3.7 I believe). That is the rule of thumb applied with a battery having a discharge capacity (or C rating) or 1. When the C rating is not known, it is to be understood as 1. This is also accepted by the industry. ***fire series batts have a C rating of 1.5, which would mean your KR8 could possibly withstand a current draw of 0.38*1.5= 0.57A. Still far short from the req'd 2.5A.

As batteries are stressed, internal resistance increases exponentially. Depending on the quality of the chemistry, this may vary between mfrs. Internal resistance is a natural occuring process of battery use.

Internal battery resistance

Battery information from Battery University

Vape Central: Battery - FAQ (layman's terms)

Thanks for that. It raises more even questions, but I'll need to first read the info to which you've provided links. This is helpful...