Reaching Vaping's Subsegments

[Lessifer]

I see open systems as no different than stuff your own. I can still go to the local tobacco store and buy cheap rolling tobacco, or buy online. That market has done far more damage to BT than e-cigarettes, and they haven't been able to prevent it or have it heavily taxed...

I'm a little ashamed to say I can't remember, but isn't RYO included in the deeming, or pipe tobacco, or something like that? I know shisha is, isn't it? I didn't pay all that much attention to the actual tobacco part.

Point being, they are beginning to close loopholes.

 

[stevegmu]

I'm a little ashamed to say I can't remember, but isn't RYO included in the deeming, or pipe tobacco, or something like that? I know shisha is, isn't it? I didn't pay all that much attention to the actual tobacco part.

Point being, they are beginning to close loopholes.

I'm not sure. Maybe they will go after 'pipe' tobacco...

 

[DC2]

Could be, but I think it is too late to go after open systems

Explain please?

Big Tobacco is pushing the FDA for elimination of open systems.
I'll go find the relevant information if you disagree.

I'd post it now but it's hard to figure out how to search for the relevant threads.


But I know they're here, and I'll do it if needed.

 

[stevegmu]

Explain please?

Big Tobacco is pushing the FDA for elimination of open systems.
I'll go find the relevant information if you disagree.

I'd post it now but it's hard to figure out how to search for the relevant threads.


But I know they're here, and I'll do it if needed.

Too many out there; too many resellers, too easy to just buy online. I don't care what BT has said; they aren't in charge...

 

[Lessifer]

Explain please?

Big Tobacco is pushing the FDA for elimination of open systems.
I'll go find the relevant information if you disagree.

I'd post it now but it's hard to figure out how to search for the relevant threads.


But I know they're here, and I'll do it if needed.

I think the FDA may go after open systems, but it will be hard to kill the open system hardware market, since they're fairly simple designs. The choke point, I think, will be e-liquid. Require a license for purchase of anything above 12mg concentration, or whatever, meaning "industrial" users will need an extra license, and "consumers" won't have access. Require those selling it to consumers to go through the PMTA process, including all behavioral and physiological studies, for every iteration, and the market disappears.

 

[DC2]

Too many out there; too many resellers, too easy to just buy online. I don't care what BT has said; they aren't in charge...

I guess it depends on what you mean by in charge.

They have a seat at the table, which is more than we have.
I hope that is wrong though, but if money is the key then their seat is fairly big.

And the ONLY way to get continued tax flow for the MSA is to make sure Big Tobacco gets theirs.
I hope that is pretty much self-explanatory?

 

[DC2]

Require those selling it to consumers to go through the PMTA process, including all behavioral and physiological studies, for every iteration, and the market disappears

Bingo.

Which is exactly why I think Bill Godshall is mostly correct.
Only those that haven't read the requirements would consider this to be wrong.

At least, that's my opinion.

 

[stevegmu]

I guess it depends on what you mean by in charge.

They have a seat at the table, which is more than we have.
I hope that is wrong though, but if money is the key then their seat is fairly big.

And the ONLY way to get continued tax flow for the MSA is to make sure Big Tobacco gets theirs.
I hope that is pretty much self-explanatory?

Dedicated vapers are only at 3% right now. I don't think BT is hurting for money., or the states are taking such a loss in taxes. I haven't seen a graphic showing the Fund money dropping significantly. I'm sure the tax revenue is dropping, but more than likely because people are smoking less, mostly due in part to smoking restrictions. There's a reason why there are twice as many dual users as dedicated vapers. The reason it seems vaping is so large from a gross monetary amount is because many vapers simply spend a lot more vaping than they ever did smoking.

 

[stevegmu]

Bingo.

Which is exactly why I think Bill Godshall is mostly correct.
Only those that haven't read the requirements would consider this to be wrong.

At least, that's my opinion.

It is all speculation right now. No one knows what will be 'deemed' , not even the FDA, it seems...
If we go solely by what has happened to smoking and cigarettes, I have no doubt vaping is doomed in the U.S., but not all at once. I think it will take years, not quite so long as it took to wreck smoking, though, as the anti smoking advocates have already supplied the blueprint...

 

[skoony]

I think the FDA may go after open systems, but it will be hard to kill the open system hardware market, since they're fairly simple designs. The choke point, I think, will be e-liquid. Require a license for purchase of anything above 12mg concentration, or whatever, meaning "industrial" users will need an extra license, and "consumers" won't have access. Require those selling it to consumers to go through the PMTA process, including all behavioral and physiological studies, for every iteration, and the market disappears.

the FDA will go after open systems and hardware to
set president.
if it passes muster with the courts and congress they
are in the cat bird seat and can reign in any future
whizz bang gizmos.
regards
mike

 

[Lessifer]

the FDA will go after open systems and hardware to
set president.
if it passes muster with the courts and congress they
are in the cat bird seat and can reign in any future
whizz bang gizmos.
regards
mike

Right, I believe they will, I just don't think they'll be all that successful, on the hardware side. I don't know though, and the speculation gives me indigestion. It would be nice if we could SEE the final rules, so we know what we're up against.

 

[nicnik]

The reason it seems vaping is so large from a gross monetary amount is because many vapers simply spend a lot more vaping than they ever did smoking.

Looking at those percentages, I think most vapers are in the categories that would include many who spend far less than they would've for smoking. Wouldn't be much DIYing among the cig-a-likers, though. A lot of them might be paying more.

 

[stevegmu]

Looking at those percentages, I think most vapers are in the categories that would include many who spend far less than they would've for smoking. Wouldn't be much DIYing among the cig-a-likers, though. A lot of them might be paying more.

It's hard to say. Could be just sheer volume of cigalikes produced and sold...

 

[skoony]

Right, I believe they will, I just don't think they'll be all that successful, on the hardware side. I don't know though, and the speculation gives me indigestion. It would be nice if we could SEE the final rules, so we know what we're up against.

i agree. until the regs are released we are all just speculating.
even with a worse case scenario i don't believe the FDA will go
after DIY. however i believe the regs will be written in such a
way as to allow them to interpret them in the most broadly
possible manner.
after the regs are passed and taxation begins and if DIY
starts to interfere with projected tax revenue and BT's
and,BP's profit margins,they will assuredly tighten the screws.
remember they do not have to ban any single ingredient or,
specific piece of hardware. all that is necessary is to have
restrictions in place banning the use of said items in certain
applications. look towards Indiana's new regulations and you will
get my drift. even though some official there said it doesn't cover
hardware,the regs as passed say otherwise. Zeller has made
similar comments concerning the deeming regs.
if they write the regs right,they will have the discretion to
proceed as they see fit with out need to make new regulations
as they will claim to already have the authority.
if the FDA and the ANTZ are to ever get a handle on this
they will have to come down hard. its not only because of
the growing number of vapers. there is a growing number
of businesses making money.good money.money to feed
and educate their children.(read chillin')
we are gaining economic power. with economic power
comes political power. we may not be quite there yet but,
we are approaching a point where they may have to really
listen to what we are saying.
i don't think they want any of that.

regards
mike

 

[Lessifer]

i agree. until the regs are released we are all just speculating.
even with a worse case scenario i don't believe the FDA will go
after DIY. however i believe the regs will be written in such a
way as to allow them to interpret them in the most broadly
possible manner.
after the regs are passed and taxation begins and if DIY
starts to interfere with projected tax revenue and BT's
and,BP's profit margins,they will assuredly tighten the screws.
remember they do not have to ban any single ingredient or,
specific piece of hardware. all that is necessary is to have
restrictions in place banning the use of said items in certain
applications. look towards Indiana's new regulations and you will
get my drift. even though some official there said it doesn't cover
hardware,the regs as passed say otherwise. Zeller has made
similar comments concerning the deeming regs.
if they right the regs right,they will have the discretion to
proceed as they see fit with out need to make new regulations
as they will claim to already have the authority.
if the FDA and the ANTZ are to ever get a handle on this
they will have to come down hard. its not only because of
the growing number of vapers. there is a growing number
of businesses making money.good money.money to feed
and educate their children.(read chillin')
we are gaining economic power. with economic power
comes political power. we may not be quite there yet but,
we are approaching a point where they may have to really
listen to what we are saying.
i don't think they want any of that.

regards
mike

Yup, I've thought all along that all they need to do with the deeming is unlock the door. Really, all they need to do is successfully deem as tobacco. Then, after the dust settles, they can release "guidance" bringing the newly deemed tobacco products in line with the established tobacco products.

 

[KattMamma]

I see open systems as no different than stuff your own. I can still go to the local tobacco store and buy cheap rolling tobacco, or buy online. That market has done far more damage to BT than e-cigarettes, and they haven't been able to prevent it or have it heavily taxed...

Not completely true. Excise taxes on loose cigarette tobacco went up by 2800% a few years ago. Most people switched to pipe tobacco (including myself) but it's just not as good. And I'm sure that loophole will be closed soon.

I expect something similar to happen to ejuice. DIY will be the loophole, and they will find a way to close that up too.

 

[Cyrus Vap]

bridge systems..."old school" atomizers!

 

[stevegmu]

Not completely true. Excise taxes on loose cigarette tobacco went up by 2800% a few years ago. Most people switched to pipe tobacco (including myself) but it's just not as good. And I'm sure that loophole will be closed soon.

I expect something similar to happen to ejuice. DIY will be the loophole, and they will find a way to close that up too.

I think I was paying around $16/lb. so I don't think the tax went up that much. I actually liked it better than loose tobacco sold as rolling tobacco...

I don't think e-liquids will be touched, other than requiring standard labels and safety caps...
If anything significant were going to happen, we would have heard about it already. There are always leaks...

 

[KattMamma]

I think I was paying around $16/lb. so I don't think the tax went up that much. I actually liked it better than loose tobacco sold as rolling tobacco...

I don't think e-liquids will be touched, other than requiring standard labels and safety caps...
If anything significant were going to happen, we would have heard about it already. There are always leaks...

A $16/lb bag of cig tobacco went up to $60/lb after the tax increase (the 90 odd cents a pound tax went up to 17 and change - then stores of course added their markup to the built-in taxes)

Most tobacco stores dropped most of the cig tobacco shortly after the tax increase because nobody was buying them. They still carry the small cans of American Spirit and a few other brands, and the small pouches (1 or 2 ounces I think?) and I would occasionally buy one of those when I wanted a "good" smoke, but it was just far too expensive to buy on a regular basis, even if I could find a place that sold by the pound.