Reasons for the thin top contacts on LG H20\H26 batteries?

[Mooch]

Regarding the thin top contacts on the LG H20 and H26 18650’s (and their Vapcell G20 and G26 rewraps)....



I would be very surprised if these easily dented contacts were created just to discourage use of these cells by vapers. We are a tiny, tiny market and it’s just not worth the time and expense to try to prevent the sale of a few thousand cells.

LG Chem would have to design and test the new contact, seek approval for the new contact from their large commercial/industrial customers, and then design the tooling and update the assembly line to handle the new contact. That is a huge investment in time and money.

/u/ObnoxiousOldBastard on ECR had a good suggestion that makes sense to me. He mentioned that thinner metal is easier to spot weld. Since all of the batteries we use are designed to only be installed in fully protected battery packs (physically and electrically) and never touched again this makes sense to me.

We see the thin contact as a problem or fault but few others would. They are easier to assemble, cost less to produce, and save weight in big packs. Wins all around for LG and their customers...just not us.

I could be wrong but I really don’t think this is an effort by LG to discourage use of their cells by vapers.

 

[bombastinator]

Regarding the thin top contacts on the LG H20 and H26 18650’s (and their Vapcell G20 and G26 rewraps)....

View attachment 813535

I would be very surprised if these easily dented contacts were created just to discourage use of these cells by vapers. We are a tiny, tiny market and it’s just not worth the time and expense to try to prevent the sale of a few thousand cells.

LG Chem would have to design and test the new contact, seek approval for the new contact from their large commercial/industrial customers, and then design the tooling and update the assembly line to handle the new contact. That is a huge investment in time and money.

/u/ObnoxiousOldBastard on ECR had a good suggestion that makes sense to me. He mentioned that thinner metal is easier to spot weld. Since all of the batteries we use are designed to only be installed in fully protected battery packs (physically and electrically) and never touched again this makes sense to me.

We see the thin contact as a problem or fault but few others would. They are easier to assemble, cost less to produce, and save weight in big packs. Wins all around for LG and their customers...just not us.

I could be wrong but I really don’t think this is an effort by LG to discourage use of their cells by vapers.

This makes a lot of sense. How many of those batteries in even one electric car? Even a tenth of an ounce a battery adds up fast. If this is the way batteries are going I suspect the answer isn’t going to be tougher battery tops it’s going to be spring loaded 510 positive pins

 

[Mordacai]

It's certainly valid.

But also if the top becomes damaged more easily, it could also mean increased sales due to replacing damaged cells.

 

[bombastinator]

It's certainly valid.

But also if the top becomes damaged more easily, it could also mean increased sales due to replacing damaged cells.

Not from vapers. Battery companies won’t even sell to vapers first hand. Everything needs to be resold. As for the main market: automotive battery packs don’t get touched on the inside anyway

 

[Mordacai]

@bombastinator, don't forget flashlight enthusiasts.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Safety Warning - eCigarettes, Vape products | LG Chem

 

[Mooch]

It's certainly valid.

But also if the top becomes damaged more easily, it could also mean increased sales due to replacing damaged cells.

All of the cells we use are never meant to be used outside of fully protected battery packs. Any other use is unauthorized and LG wants nothing to do with it.

The millions of these they sell to their large commercial/industrial customers will drive their performance characteristics and construction choices. We are a tiny, tiny market with monstrous liability issues and they desperately want us to stop using LG cells.

 

[BillW50]

PBusardo's video shows the Yongdeli Battery Factory with Tony of Aspire there manufacturing 18650s to be used for vaping. Vapcell is obvious who they are for, but I don't know where they get their cells at. But they do say: "Vapcell Group established in 2013, and mainly engaged in the research and development, production and sales of lithium ion battery products, especially ecig mod batteries."

 

[Mooch]

PBusardo's video shows the Yongdeli Battery Factory with Tony of Aspire there manufacturing 18650s to be used for vaping. Vapcell is obvious who they are for, but I don't know where they get their cells at. But they do say: "Vapcell Group established in 2013, and mainly engaged in the research and development, production and sales of lithium ion battery products, especially ecig mod batteries."

Vapcell rewraps a lot of different gray market OEM cells and uses some China-manufactured cells too. They’ll never say who though.

Many companies certainly claim that their cells are made for vaping (they're all meant to be used for vaping, or marketed for vaping) but it’s curious that they’re no different than any other cell we use. All have tweaks here and there to their chemistry and internal composition to fit certain performance and price points. All have the spectacularly ridiculous (for our use) construction with both the pos and neg terminals on top under thin plastic protection. All can blow up if abused or mishandled.

A battery made for vaping, IMO, would look verrrrrrry different and use a different chemistry or integrate protection electronics into the cell....reliable electronics. They would be larger and more expensive but that’s understandable given how we are misusing all of our cells.

Perhaps some day a true made-for-vaping cell will be made. Tough for such a tiny, tiny market but I can dream.

 

[sonicbomb]

If the big manufacturers wanted to discourage vapers from using their cells, a simple change to the physical characteristics of the casing would be the way to go. Lets hope they do not.

 

[BillW50]

A battery made for vaping, IMO, would look verrrrrrry different and use a different chemistry or integrate protection electronics into the cell....reliable electronics. They would be larger and more expensive but that’s understandable given how we are misusing all of our cells.

You mean like my 5 DJI Phantom batteries? They have all of the electronics built into the battery pack. Including the battery charger. They have a 4S lipo inside of the pack, but there is no way I can check any individual cell voltage without destroying the pack casing. The Phantom's on board computer knows what the cell's voltages are, since it communicates to the battery's electronics through a serial port. You just have to hope the electronics and the firmware doesn't screw anything up. Yes, the battery pack has its own firmware and often gets updates.

It comes at a huge cost though. As what would normally be just a $50 lipo, cost $150. The on board electronics is one thing, but to include a built in charger for every battery pack? And this built in electronics will slowly drain the battery pack. So storage is a pain in the neck. Every 6 months, you better charge them to 50 to 60%. Don't bother putting anymore charge in, as electronics will decide within 10 days that it is in storage and will self discharge the pack down to 60% capacity. Failing to add a charge in storage, the pack goes into hibernation mode. Which requires a series of button presses and such to bring it back to life. Although hibernation mode doesn't have a long life. As soon it will enter into totally dead mode.

These packs have lots of safe guards built in. Maybe these are the things you are talking about. Its one of the safest packs I've ever ran across. Things like if the pack gets as cold as 50°F, it refuses to work. Of course too hot it refuses too. If the pack exceeds xxx amount of recharges, dead forever. As it decides the life of the pack is over and refuses to deliver anymore power. Regardless of the internal cell resistance or capacity. Yes it tracks this too. Funny they don't tell you when (although the on board computer does give you the recharges count), so when you need it the most, it will probably fail. It might have a best by date for all I know and might refuse to work anymore if it gets too old.

 

[Mooch]

You mean like my 5 DJI Phantom batteries? They have all of the electronics built into the battery pack. Including the battery charger. They have a 4S lipo inside of the pack, but there is no way I can check any individual cell voltage without destroying the pack casing. The Phantom's on board computer knows what the cell's voltages are, since it communicates to the battery's electronics through a serial port. You just have to hope the electronics and the firmware doesn't screw anything up. Yes, the battery pack has its own firmware and often gets updates.

It comes at a huge cost though. As what would normally be just a $50 lipo, cost $150. The on board electronics is one thing, but to include a built in charger for every battery pack? And this built in electronics will slowly drain the battery pack. So storage is a pain in the neck. Every 6 months, you better charge them to 50 to 60%. Don't bother putting anymore charge in, as electronics will decide within 10 days that it is in storage and will self discharge the pack down to 60% capacity. Failing to add a charge in storage, the pack goes into hibernation mode. Which requires a series of button presses and such to bring it back to life. Although hibernation mode doesn't have a long life. As soon it will enter into totally dead mode.

These packs have lots of safe guards built in. Maybe these are the things you are talking about. Its one of the safest packs I've ever ran across. Things like if the pack gets as cold as 50°F, it refuses to work. Of course too hot it refuses too. If the pack exceeds xxx amount of recharges, dead forever. As it decides the life of the pack is over and refuses to deliver anymore power. Regardless of the internal cell resistance or capacity. Yes it tracks this too. Funny they don't tell you when (although the on board computer does give you the recharges count), so when you need it the most, it will probably fail. It might have a best by date for all I know and might refuse to work anymore if it gets too old.

Safeguards are one aspect of a good battery management system but a good user interface and supporting features are important too. Some packs and devices do it well, some don’t. The ones I’ve designed for my clients have done everything they have wanted them to and nothing they haven’t wanted.

All that gets laid out in the product and engineering requirements documents though so there are no surprises or letdowns. I would think DJI did the same thing but how they came to make their decisions for the way their packs operate is unknown. Erring on the side of caution is a very common strategy for pack battery management systems being used by the public though.

 

[zoiDman]

...
I would be very surprised if these easily dented contacts were created just to discourage use of these cells by vapers. We are a tiny, tiny market and it’s just not worth the time and expense to try to prevent the sale of a few thousand cells.

...

We see the thin contact as a problem or fault but few others would. They are easier to assemble, cost less to produce, and save weight in big packs. Wins all around for LG and their customers...just not us.

...

... We are a tiny, tiny market with monstrous liability issues and they desperately want us to stop using LG cells.

Two Birds with One Stone?