Yeah completely agree....that's exactly what i'm doing now. Looking forward to trying the steeped stuff in 6 weeks. I may have a tiny tester before
)Recipe questions on first try.
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Yeah completely agree....that's exactly what i'm doing now. Looking forward to trying the steeped stuff in 6 weeks. I may have a tiny tester before
)
Glad you are having success early on!You're probably right but doesn't stop it being nice to vape straight away but I guess it would then change over time. I'm new to DIY so no nothing really
Bavarian Cream (FW) 3.00%
Cream Fresh (FA) 3.00%
Custard Flavour (FA) 2.00%
Graham Crust (FA) 5.00%
Juicy Strawberry (FA) 5.00%
Lemon Sicily (FA) 1.00%
Red Touch (Strawberry) (FA) 5.00%
It was good straight away but the strawberry is mingling more as time goes by. A good vape but needs some tweaking I suspect....it's all a learning curve.
That makes wanting to DIY all the better.Just be careful not to fall into the all to common belief, that more ingredients, mean better results. Having 7, 10, even 15 ingredient recipes may look like they should be better. But, though layering can make sense in some situations, it does not mean it is right for all situations.
I see more successful mixers, reverting to 5, 4, 3, even single flavor recipes, as being more satisfying. Rather than needlessly complicated, muddled, confusing, unsatisfying complex recipes.
Please understand; I am not saying that there is no place for a complex recipe. Layering can fill in an incomplete ingredient. It can add depth and interest. It can take "good" to "incredible." But, function must meet, or exceed intent. Otherwise, you end up wasting needless ingredients at best, and creating an unvapable mess at worst.
I would suggest starting with the fewest number of ingredients, you think are required to make a given recipe, and then fill in the missing notes as needed.
Having a good working knowledge of your individual ingredients helps too. Single flavor testing may be boring, and not particularly satisfying (though I have found some surprising winners). But, the information learned from doing so, can be invaluable. And, the time saved during later recipe creations, more than offsets the initial time spent.
This, of course, is not the only (or the "right") way to mix. It is just what has worked best for me. Anything that keeps you off cigarettes, and is most enjoyable, is the right choice for you.
I would add one caveat to volume mixing: leave that for recipes you have already tried and know you like.Yeah completely agree....that's exactly what i'm doing now. Looking forward to trying the steeped stuff in 6 weeks. I may have a tiny tester before
I rarely make even a 30ml batch of a new (to me) recipe. If I am trying someone else's recipe for the first time, or creating something from scratch; I only make 10-15mL, until I see how I am going to like it. For single flavor testers; I find that 10mL is fine if I am expecting it to require aging, and I expect to be doing repeated test vaping along the way. If it is something I think won't require much time; then even 5mL is plenty.
Keep in mind; the larger the volume, the longer the time to mature. A 30mL tobacco recipe may take a month to come into its prime. While a 500mL batch, of the exact same recipe, can take 3 months, before it really shines.
And, as for test vaping an unfamiliar mix; I see no problem with this. In fact; I encourage it. I, personally, like to know how my mixes develop. If I am working with something that is completely new to me; I like to taste immediately after mixing (usually), again at 24 hours, again at 3 days, again at 1 week, and then once a week thereafter, for at least a month... before I consider making any adjustments.
(I have seen more notice mixers ruin a mix, by adding "more," before the recipe has a chance to bloom. Then, when it is finally given a chance to mature, it is over-flavored, unbalanced, and difficult/impossible to fix.)
On the other hand, if I am working with ingredients I am familiar with, and know one or more of them requires X amount of time to come into their own, I will skip early test vaping.
Just one personal example of "early-and-often" test vaping: I had always read that "all tobaccos require at least a month to taste their best." I took this as gospel and never vaped the few tobaccos I tried until they were a month old. I was not impressed with my results.
One day, I read someone saying that they liked a particular tobacco concentrate after 3 days, and I happened to have that concentrate. So, I decided to apply my normal testing regiment (as described above) to a fresh mix.
These were my findings: immediately after mixing... nasty;give it more time. After 24 hours... still fairly unpleasant, but I can see something promising, give it more time. After 3 days... I'm really beginning to dig this, lots of fresh/grassy notes and light tobacco background, I can start vaping this. At 1 week... this is awesome, still great fresh/grassy flavors, but more balanced with a richer but not overbearing tobacco foundation. At 2 weeks... not liking this as much, grass is disappearing into a deeper, darker, tobacco. After 3 weeks... Tobacco has completely taken over, all the things I liked about this are now gone.
So; what did I learn? That, for me, I like Inawera Am4a, best between 3 days and 2 weeks, and I should not make more than I can vape in that time. And, I found a single flavor mix, that remains one of my favorite all day vapes to this day.
I guess, what I am trying to share with you is; to do your due diligence, try to learn from all those who have already paved the way (they can help prevent the need to reinvent the wheel), but always remember that there is NO other mixer exactly like you. You have a palate that is unique. Learn what that is, keep it small, taste often, and enjoy the journey.
Glad you are having success early on!
Just be careful not to fall into the all to common belief, that more ingredients, mean better results. Having 7, 10, even 15 ingredient recipes may look like they should be better. But, though layering can make sense in some situations, it does not mean it is right for all situations.
Don't worry I won't....although the above recipe has quite high percentages it has always been my idea to keep this low. I may try the above at same ratio/lower percentage with a long steep.
I see more successful mixers, reverting to 5, 4, 3, even single flavor recipes, as being more satisfying. Rather than needlessly complicated, muddled, confusing, unsatisfying complex recipes.
Agreed.
Please understand; I am not saying that there is no place for a complex recipe. Layering can fill in an incomplete ingredient. It can add depth and interest. It can take "good" to "incredible." But, function must meet, or exceed intent. Otherwise, you end up wasting needless ingredients at best, and creating an unvapable mess at worst.
I would suggest starting with the fewest number of ingredients, you think are required to make a given recipe, and then fill in the missing notes as needed.
Yes...this is good advice thanks.
Having a good working knowledge of your individual ingredients helps too. Single flavor testing may be boring, and not particularly satisfying (though I have found some surprising winners). But, the information learned from doing so, can be invaluable. And, the time saved during later recipe creations, more than offsets the initial time spent.
I know I need to do this but have been too eager to get mixing so far
This, of course, is not the only (or the "right") way to mix. It is just what has worked best for me. Anything that keeps you off cigarettes, and is most enjoyable, is the right choice for you.
I would add one caveat to volume mixing: leave that for recipes you have already tried and know you like.
I rarely make even a 30ml batch of a new (to me) recipe. If I am trying someone else's recipe for the first time, or creating something from scratch; I only make 10-15mL, until I see how I am going to like it. For single flavor testers; I find that 10mL is fine if I am expecting it to require aging, and I expect to be doing repeated test vaping along the way. If it is something I think won't require much time; then even 5mL is plenty.
Agreed, I have 6 30ml steeping and am planning on making 1 per week from now on so that I always have something ready to try.
Keep in mind; the larger the volume, the longer the time to mature. A 30mL tobacco recipe may take a month to come into its prime. While a 500mL batch, of the exact same recipe, can take 3 months, before it really shines.
And, as for test vaping an unfamiliar mix; I see no problem with this. In fact; I encourage it. I, personally, like to know how my mixes develop. If I am working with something that is completely new to me; I like to taste immediately after mixing (usually), again at 24 hours, again at 3 days, again at 1 week, and then once a week thereafter, for at least a month... before I consider making any adjustments.
(I have seen more notice mixers ruin a mix, by adding "more," before the recipe has a chance to bloom. Then, when it is finally given a chance to mature, it is over-flavored, unbalanced, and difficult/impossible to fix.)
I have experienced this already with a mix that onced it had aged a bit turned a bit nasty...vapable but not satisfying and definitely worse. I put too much in to start with
On the other hand, if I am working with ingredients I am familiar with, and know one or more of them requires X amount of time to come into their own, I will skip early test vaping.
Just one personal example of "early-and-often" test vaping: I had always read that "all tobaccos require at least a month to taste their best." I took this as gospel and never vaped the few tobaccos I tried until they were a month old. I was not impressed with my results.
One day, I read someone saying that they liked a particular tobacco concentrate after 3 days, and I happened to have that concentrate. So, I decided to apply my normal testing regiment (as described above) to a fresh mix.
These were my findings: immediately after mixing... nasty;give it more time. After 24 hours... still fairly unpleasant, but I can see something promising, give it more time. After 3 days... I'm really beginning to dig this, lots of fresh/grassy notes and light tobacco background, I can start vaping this. At 1 week... this is awesome, still great fresh/grassy flavors, but more balanced with a richer but not overbearing tobacco foundation. At 2 weeks... not liking this as much, grass is disappearing into a deeper, darker, tobacco. After 3 weeks... Tobacco has completely taken over, all the things I liked about this are now gone.
So; what did I learn? That, for me, I like Inawera Am4a, best between 3 days and 2 weeks, and I should not make more than I can vape in that time. And, I found a single flavor mix, that remains one of my favorite all day vapes to this day.
Yep...a lot of people are saying this. I get it but it seems kind of counter-intuitive because I started with the idea that all mixes should reach a stable point to allow for storage over the long term. Obviously with DIY you can mix anything at any quantity so its doable. I suspect that this happens when ingredients do not react well together (chemically) but at the same time taste/vape nice early on.
I guess, what I am trying to share with you is; to do your due diligence, try to learn from all those who have already paved the way (they can help prevent the need to reinvent the wheel),
Nice to hear that I am welcome to do that...some of the guys on Reddit are not nice!! To be honest its exactly what I have been trying to do... Thanks again for the very useful info
but always remember that there is NO other mixer exactly like you. You have a palate that is unique. Learn what that is, keep it small, taste often, and enjoy the journey.
I get the impression from some new mixers that they want exacting information so they can walk right past the learning part, so they have stellar results right out of the gate.
Exact %s and days of steeping, etc. and the bottom line is, taste is too subjective.
I get why they want this info, hell wouldn't we all love that. I think the subjective nature of vaping is hard for all newbs to accept. There are few concrete facts. Fading flavors are the bane of my mixing priorities these days.
Well yeah, if only it were that easy lol.
I was frustrated at first, because I’d do exactly what someone else did, and not get good results. But I did my own thing and it came out fine.
My concrete facts are
You have to calculate.
Measure precisely
Take notes
And for Pete’s sake, don’t tweak until it’s done what it’s gonna do! Lol
And there’s good advice, like what kind of bottles, where to buy nic and so on... we all have our preferences.
All the other stuff I had to learn for myself.
Yeah my tendency is not to tweak. I just set the mix back for more steeping and mix a few mls of the same with different percentages. When I started diy my first mixes were in the 20% range now they are 15-5% range. So glad I listened to the one's that advised not mixing large batches for a few months. Amazing how fast your taste buds adjust to diy and you lose the taste for over flavored juices.
I do think having modest goals helps. I'm so glad I approached flavors like cooking, meaning understanding my (single) ingredients first and etc. This stuff DOES build on itself, but modest goals are achievable goals, and etc.
Of course, having my family of origin have to eat what I made, well I wasn't going to start will Filet Mignon. I mean.... First of all I was 12 (my mom was in the hospital) secondly, it just made sense to start with simple things and etc. Also, I was like "You can start with "bland" or "Really messed up." LOL fortunately I like cooking my biggest problem of late has been cooking for two (I used to start out cooking for five) and portion sizes.
I am also perhaps (unpopularly) say that some folks just get/obtain a knack for this stuff, but starting simple is the way to obtain that. Etc. I'm not going to be really making much and much smaller sizes because DANG I have so much stuff just piled up waiting to vape. After a few "killer" mixing sessions, I gotta go smaller. LOL.
Anna
Of course, having my family of origin have to eat what I made, well I wasn't going to start will Filet Mignon. I mean.... First of all I was 12 (my mom was in the hospital) secondly, it just made sense to start with simple things and etc. Also, I was like "You can start with "bland" or "Really messed up." LOL fortunately I like cooking my biggest problem of late has been cooking for two (I used to start out cooking for five) and portion sizes.
I am also perhaps (unpopularly) say that some folks just get/obtain a knack for this stuff, but starting simple is the way to obtain that. Etc. I'm not going to be really making much and much smaller sizes because DANG I have so much stuff just piled up waiting to vape. After a few "killer" mixing sessions, I gotta go smaller. LOL.
Anna
What I don't get is that whether a mix needs 6 weeks or 2 when its done its should be stable. To me I don't like the idea of racing to vape a mix because....''oooh lordy, lordy my lemon is going to vanish on day 8''
As I said before i'm hearing this a lot but isn't it just that the recipe is wrong?? What I mean is surely there is a mix where the fading fruit stays where you want it to be. Otherwise it means that you can never mix certain fruits with creams and particularly custard which needs ages to be developed properly
CustardOr am I missing something important
I think I would tend not to tweak either. Its interesting what you say about 20% mixes when you started. I'm vaping a borrowed recipe from ELR which i adjusted to work with my flavours and its ok even with a sub ohm device. I definitely will probably mix it again as part of my learning at a lower %/same ratio and see what we get. Logically it should taste identical but weaker. If it tastes different then that will tell me something important.
Insightful info, Joel! The part about testing mixes without waiting for full maturity to occur was something we all need to do. I've experienced the same with some tobacco flavors. Vape them while they are good or mix at lower strength and let them steep for a month. I've learned by my failures to sample and adjust the mix to balance steep time with end point flavor. Some tobacco flavors I tend to vape up in the first three weeks and others require lots of steep time to be enjoyable. Then, there are those that begin to look like dark tea in a month and aren't nearly as good by then. If that happens I adjust the mix on my flavor data sheets and try again. Eventually, I get it right (or at least good enough to be a repeatable flavor).
DIY is not as easy as it sounds at first, but with time and patience anyone can make great juice. I was looking through a box of flavors I mixed a couple of years ago at low percentages and they are still stable and vapable because they weren't over-flavored when i mixed them. You can always add some more flavor and wait.
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What you are missing is the fact it is what it is. Some flavors fade and some flavors need a steep. If you want to mix the two you mix the steepers and add the faders as needed. This why many mix cream and custard bases up by the liter. IMO you are beating a dead horse here. FE lemon and JF lemons last much longer and are good for juices you aren't going to get too for a few weeks. There are also many strawberries that fade quickly. If your intent is to mix & sell you are going to have to experiment with small batch long steeps. Even if you are just mixing for yourself and family like I do you have to do the homework. When I mix their juice I mix a couple snv and a couple steepers just like I do for myself.What I don't get is that whether a mix needs 6 weeks or 2 when its done its should be stable. To me I don't like the idea of racing to vape a mix because....''oooh lordy, lordy my lemon is going to vanish on day 8''
Or am I missing something important
What changes is your tastes and no it will not actually taste the same just weaker in some cases. You will find that some flavors will rise to the top and shine and another will all but disappear.
No I get that it is what it is but I am just trying to understand how it works by say applying logic on a finished product basis.....so on a long steep. I think that what we are saying here is that we quick vape a juice with a fading fruit because we like the taste and WE JUST CAN but i see the stable juice after a long steep test a true juice. So in other words i'm probably not ever going to choose the former for my all day vape because obviously that mix needs to be made up in quantity and be stable....hope that makes sense.
As I've posted before I have juices that were mixed as long ago as two years that are still vapable. Some juices aren't going to last that long, but freshness seems to continue in a sealed bottle at room temp for a long time, certainly long enough to finish the bottle in a reasonable length of time.
If a flavor dies quickly, I'd look for a similar flavor in another brand to try.
If a flavor dies quickly, I'd look for a similar flavor in another brand to try.
And just to add Letitia i do the same at the moment with mixing a steeper or two and going with a snv for right away vaping. I am finding though that the SnV's are all really steepers but they are ones that taste good straight away. I am finding also that the SnV often taste worse than when just mixed in only a few days....so this is my point they are really incomplete works in progress that happen to taste nice initially.
Agreed...In fact in my experience with commercial juices they all stay stable for a long time. I know this because I vaped for 3 years and then started smoking again for a uear and a half. This only applies to a limited amount of juices though!! I definitely need some other flavours but not going to get them yet as still playing with the 35 i have started diy with....I'm learning slowly and really enjoying the dynamics also...
Agreed...In fact in my experience with commercial juices they all stay stable for a long time. I know this because I vaped for 3 years and then started smoking again for a uear and a half. This only applies to a limited amount of juices though!! I definitely need some other flavours but not going to get them yet as still playing with the 35 i have started diy with....I'm learning slowly and really enjoying the dynamics also...
If a juice vendor gets complaints about juice longevity it's in their best interest to find a similar flavor ingredient that's stable. What I experienced from some juice vendors when I bought vendor juice was an occasional bottle that either wasn't steeped long enough or one that didn't taste like what I was used to. You expect repeatability with vendor mixes, but I suppose there are changes here and there in the employees who work in the mixing lab. That, and a run on a popular flavor that puts them in the position where they have to mix and mail it out to keep buyers happy.
One thread on ECF can create a run on a single vendor's juice. Think Boba's Bounty! Those people were running out of juice daily and it was hard to get into their site. They'd shut down the site and leave a banner message when their current batch was depleted. I'm sure there was little steep time from creation to order fulfillment, but people were crazy about Boba's Bounty.
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