Recipe questions on first try.
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I would just say that for me (personally) 10% seems high for a single flavor. But, I'm not sure EXACTLY what is going on, I tend to not be a fan of strawberries.
Look for muters in your mix, things that contain stuff like ethyl maltol (there are various places you can find out for sure, sometimes vendor pages or reviews or other sites) and make sure you are using them judiciously.
Since you aren't getting good results at 10% (for whatever reason) I, personally approaching that situation would REDUCE the strawberry as sometimes too much is as bad as not enough. Plus, you can always add more MANY strawberries are pretty much shake and vape. In my (personal) opinion, too much flavoring can result in a sort of muddy, tasteless mix, and to me reducing would make sense given you can always bump up.
It may also be that THAT particular strawberry is not playing well with your particular palate. I have flavors I am ultra sensitive to like orange. The hint of orange in a mix, I can just taste for days (I have no clue what that is, and I still need to send Letitia all my oranges, of which I have FEW, but I have successfully determined I am NEVER going to enjoy that flavor. So, it's also determinate on your particular palate, and since 10% is FAIRLY high, I am going to recommend either reducing it, or layering in maybe a different strawberry from another vendor, I have had quite a bit of success with this method, it can add a fullness and depth to my mixes that I quite enjoy. Many fruits I like are either layered (like I have several apricot flavors and I combine them) or used in conjunction with another fruit, to get a richer, deeper "fruit thing" going on.
Good luck, I hope your next mix works out better!
Anna
Look for muters in your mix, things that contain stuff like ethyl maltol (there are various places you can find out for sure, sometimes vendor pages or reviews or other sites) and make sure you are using them judiciously.
Since you aren't getting good results at 10% (for whatever reason) I, personally approaching that situation would REDUCE the strawberry as sometimes too much is as bad as not enough. Plus, you can always add more MANY strawberries are pretty much shake and vape. In my (personal) opinion, too much flavoring can result in a sort of muddy, tasteless mix, and to me reducing would make sense given you can always bump up.
It may also be that THAT particular strawberry is not playing well with your particular palate. I have flavors I am ultra sensitive to like orange. The hint of orange in a mix, I can just taste for days (I have no clue what that is, and I still need to send Letitia all my oranges, of which I have FEW, but I have successfully determined I am NEVER going to enjoy that flavor. So, it's also determinate on your particular palate, and since 10% is FAIRLY high, I am going to recommend either reducing it, or layering in maybe a different strawberry from another vendor, I have had quite a bit of success with this method, it can add a fullness and depth to my mixes that I quite enjoy. Many fruits I like are either layered (like I have several apricot flavors and I combine them) or used in conjunction with another fruit, to get a richer, deeper "fruit thing" going on.
Good luck, I hope your next mix works out better!
Anna
I did put a couple of drops of sweetener TFA in...is this ethyl maltol? I've seen it described as sucralose/maltol.
The mix had red touch and juicy strawberry and lemon sicily in for exactly that reason to build up the fruit. I'm going to experiment with thius one and reduce % at same ratio and try a long steep...maybe leave the sweetener out.
First, thats a lot of graham crust, especially being the FA version. That being said. What might be happening is after it steeps the creams start to come into there own and simply cover up the SB. Lemon sicily is a known fader so some of the tang is fading away.So I guess what we are saying here is that my recent SnV this week should have been made up as a steeper with just the creams and then had the strawbs added just before vape....
This recent mix has turned neutral in just 6 days so I think i'm going to try it at same ratio low percentage to steep for 6 weeks. Here is the current recipe...
Bavarian Cream (FW) 3.00
Cream Fresh (FA)3.00
Custard Flavour (FA)2.00
Graham Crust (FA)5.00
Juicy Strawberry (FA)5.00
Lemon Sicily (FA)1.00
Red Touch (Strawberry) (FA)5.00
Uts not an unpleasant vape but the strawberry has all but disappeared which is incredible when you think there is 10% in there. What's going on?
I'm determined to get this to a stable juice that I can leave for a month or to. So I'll probably divide each % by 3 and see what we get after a steep. It's not easy this DIY.
I'm a bit worried about my 6 30ml steep experiemnt. 1 week down 5 to go and most of those are fruit/cream mixes. I will be mixing 1 steeper each week so that by time the 6 weeks is up I will have another 6 steeping.
Thanks...to be honest I thought it was a high% of GC but I know about creams so BC and the Custard may be swamping the strawbs for sure...thing is it doesn't taste particularly creamy either. Its there but not huge!! I'm going to reduce the % and try a steeped mix and see where we get to. The LS is there just to enhance so aware that it fades but you're right it may have taken away some of the bite.
To the best of my knowledge, Supersweet is pure sucralose. It shouldn't mute, it doesn't need to steep. So, if you so desire you could try reducing it and see if the strawberry notes "come through" more if less sweet. IDK I think you are getting good suggestions from other posters.
Some of the main offenders that I know of for ethyl maltol are like cotton candy, that's like 95% ethyl maltol pretty much, merengue and marshmallow, all of which I actually use in my mixes, but in judicious amounts. They can add to mouthfeel and I actually quite like them, in the proportion that works for me, which is Pretty Low. I'm sure there are other flavors but I don't know all of them.
Lemons do fade, and too much graham cracker could overwhelm a LOT I guess, especially if/when not fully steeped and etc.
Anna
Some of the main offenders that I know of for ethyl maltol are like cotton candy, that's like 95% ethyl maltol pretty much, merengue and marshmallow, all of which I actually use in my mixes, but in judicious amounts. They can add to mouthfeel and I actually quite like them, in the proportion that works for me, which is Pretty Low. I'm sure there are other flavors but I don't know all of them.
Lemons do fade, and too much graham cracker could overwhelm a LOT I guess, especially if/when not fully steeped and etc.
Anna
This is just my opinion but I would back the cream fresh down to 1-2% and the graham also. The red touch to me works as either stand alone at 4-5% or as a back up at 1-2%. Bavarian and cream fresh I dont touch for a couple weeks. Not really sure what the lemon is for? TTo make the SB pop a bit Im guessing. Pom does a great job with SB at low percentages like 1%. I truly think its just over-flavored but thats just my opinion.So I guess what we are saying here is that my recent SnV this week should have been made up as a steeper with just the creams and then had the strawbs added just before vape....
This recent mix has turned neutral in just 6 days so I think i'm going to try it at same ratio low percentage to steep for 6 weeks. Here is the current recipe...
Bavarian Cream (FW) 3.00
Cream Fresh (FA)3.00
Custard Flavour (FA)2.00
Graham Crust (FA)5.00
Juicy Strawberry (FA)5.00
Lemon Sicily (FA)1.00
Red Touch (Strawberry) (FA)5.00
Uts not an unpleasant vape but the strawberry has all but disappeared which is incredible when you think there is 10% in there. What's going on?
I'm determined to get this to a stable juice that I can leave for a month or to. So I'll probably divide each % by 3 and see what we get after a steep. It's not easy this DIY.
I'm a bit worried about my 6 30ml steep experiment. 1 week down 5 to go and most of those are fruit/cream mixes. I will be mixing 1 steeper each week so that by time the 6 weeks is up I will have another 6 steeping.
I haven't got meringue, but do have marshmallow. I use it as a sweetener and for mouthfeel so think its a really useful flavour. Ill have to get some meringue as well. I defo agree with you here.
This is where I don't have any idea...I've definitely decided to half the %'s and let it go for a long steep but am in 2 minds about reducing the graham crust....I'm still thinking about it. Just vaping the last tank full now so will do a new all day SNV mix tomorrow and redo this one and leave for a long steep. Where there's a will there's a way
Yes...that's what I think too...it's certainly displaying all the symptoms.
Question....I intend to half all the %'s and let it 6 week steep so this will bring GC and FC down to 1-2%. Do you think I need to reduce them further...ratio wise?? In a way I need to keep the recipe balance the same whilst reducing the %'s to truly see if its just over flavouring. Of course if it is the balance of flavours I will end up trying to mix it right on a third attempt in 6 weeks. Jesus
And POM is? Apple, pomegranite? I have some dragonfruit, pear, peach, lime and melon but that's about it at the mo.
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I'm going to go out on a limb here to say I'm not a believer when it comes to the principle of steeping or whatever you want to call it. The conclusion is deductive that commercial flavorings must be chemically stable for them to have any shelf life. And I have to reason that the professionals creating these products are far more knowledgeable and discerning than most of us are. Otherwise, it'd be a hard sell if anytime you bought a flavoring product you'd gave to guess based on it's steep time.
That said, some flavorings oxidize to maturity at differing rates and degrees and the net effect is less one of flavor distinctiveness than of potency. A classic example is the moderately pigmented (light yellow) CAP French Vanilla v2 which generally matures (like most) within about 5-days to a rich amber color, in contrast to its v1 counterpart which doesn't color shift at all. The v2 does gain some slight fruitiness in the process and continues to do so for some time at a rapidly decreasing rate. Used in moderation or layered it's useful for achieving a color target.
So to me potency or the tendency to fade in general or in certain mixes is the more significant factor. Gaining some experience with those particular classes, particularly bright accent flavorings like Fuji Apple, strawberries and many specialty flavorings and how these affect your results will yield far better recipe quick mixes. Your main flavors are usually rock solid. Steeping them will often just dilute the impact of accents. And maybe some of us would do well without them if we know that's what we like and are really after. No sense waiting for the joy.
Not that there aren't exceptions but I think most of the stuff we can conceive given this with our common flavoring products are going to be shake-n-vape. But I'm not discounting the very real phenomena that color, texture, etc. can psychologically impact perceived taste.
Good luck.
p.s. @charlie1465 the creams will dilute and mute your main flavorings, yes. I'd drop your creams a tad at a time, individually or in combination, to the right texture and flavor balance that you like. If too weak, increase all upward proportionately 'till you smile. If you run over the goal post, less is more in the opposite direction.
That said, some flavorings oxidize to maturity at differing rates and degrees and the net effect is less one of flavor distinctiveness than of potency. A classic example is the moderately pigmented (light yellow) CAP French Vanilla v2 which generally matures (like most) within about 5-days to a rich amber color, in contrast to its v1 counterpart which doesn't color shift at all. The v2 does gain some slight fruitiness in the process and continues to do so for some time at a rapidly decreasing rate. Used in moderation or layered it's useful for achieving a color target.
So to me potency or the tendency to fade in general or in certain mixes is the more significant factor. Gaining some experience with those particular classes, particularly bright accent flavorings like Fuji Apple, strawberries and many specialty flavorings and how these affect your results will yield far better recipe quick mixes. Your main flavors are usually rock solid. Steeping them will often just dilute the impact of accents. And maybe some of us would do well without them if we know that's what we like and are really after. No sense waiting for the joy.
Not that there aren't exceptions but I think most of the stuff we can conceive given this with our common flavoring products are going to be shake-n-vape. But I'm not discounting the very real phenomena that color, texture, etc. can psychologically impact perceived taste.
Good luck.
p.s. @charlie1465 the creams will dilute and mute your main flavorings, yes. I'd drop your creams a tad at a time, individually or in combination, to the right texture and flavor balance that you like. If too weak, increase all upward proportionately 'till you smile. If you run over the goal post, less is more in the opposite direction.
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Pomegranate. Some flavors just work better with certain flavors to accomplish the same goal. You can try just reducing it first and then start tweaking it if its not to your satisfaction.Yes...that's what I think too...it's certainly displaying all the symptoms.
Question....I intend to half all the %'s and let it 6 week steep so this will bring GC and FC down to 1-2%. Do you think I need to reduce them further...ratio wise?? In a way I need to keep the recipe balance the same whilst reducing the %'s to truly see if its just over flavouring. Of course if it is the balance of flavours I will end up trying to mix it right on a third attempt in 6 weeks. Jesus
And POM is? Apple, pomegranite? I have some dragonfruit, pear, peach, lime and melon but that's about it at the mo.
Steeeping will not make a bad recipe good but it can make a decent recipe better. Some flavors just take a while to meld and come into there own. Dont believe me. Mix 3% cap vanilla custard and try it. Now wait two weeks and try it again.
Before you make another reduced mix of your recipe, may I suggest you take half of what you already mixed ie. if you made/have 30 ml take 15 ml etc., or whatever amt you want and put in another bottle. Add the same amount of pg/vg in whatever ratio you want. Then shake and taste to see if flavors can now be tasted. This will serve a couple of purposes.Yes...that's what I think too...it's certainly displaying all the symptoms.
Question....I intend to half all the %'s and let it 6 week steep so this will bring GC and FC down to 1-2%. Do you think I need to reduce them further...ratio wise?? In a way I need to keep the recipe balance the same whilst reducing the %'s to truly see if its just over flavouring. Of course if it is the balance of flavours I will end up trying to mix it right on a third attempt in 6 weeks. Jesus
And POM is? Apple, pomegranite? I have some dragonfruit, pear, peach, lime and melon but that's about it at the mo.
1. If you were going to make a new mix only using half % of the same flavors that you used before this will accomplish the same thing with an already steeped mix. Just wait over night for the extra pg/vg to blend with the flavoring....Be sure to shake the dickens out of the new bottle before sticking it back in the cabinet. Leave the cap on.
2. You can then judge(after tasting/vaping) if the % of flavors is where you want them. Even if this is not the desired end mix you want, its better than just throwing it down the drain. At least this may help to answer some of your questions, and you will still have some of the old mix to try again at a different %. This mix will work if you need to reduce further . (I would not add any more flavoring to this bottle)
If you want a higher % then you need to use the original bottle mix(should still have some left in the original bottle).
Remember I only gave examples of how many mls to use. You could use 2.5ml of old flavoring and add equal amounts of pg/vg....same results.
This is just what I would do......YMMV
p.s. The cheescake flavor I complained about earlier has now been fixed.... by using the way I explained above....It had fully steeped and was over flavored. Now is very good.
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Before you make another reduced mix of your recipe, may I suggest you take half of what you already mixed ie. if you made/have 30 ml take 15 ml etc., or whatever amt you want and put in another bottle. Add the same amount of pg/vg in whatever ratio you want. Then shake and taste to see if flavors can now be tasted. This will serve a couple of purposes.
1. If you were going to make a new mix only using half % of the same flavors that you used before this will accomplish the same thing with an already steeped mix. Just wait over night for the extra pg/vg to blend with the flavoring....Be sure to shake the dickens out of the new bottle before sticking it back in the cabinet. Leave the cap on.
2. You can then judge(after tasting/vaping) if the % of flavors is where you want them. Even if this is not the desired end mix you want, its better than just throwing it down the drain. At least this may help to answer some of your questions, and you will still have some of the old mix to try again at a different %. This mix will work if you need to reduce further . (I would not add any more flavoring to this bottle)
If you want a higher % then you need to use the original bottle mix(should still have some left in the original bottle).
Remember I only gave examples of how many mls to use. You could use 2.5ml of old flavoring and add equal amounts of pg/vg....same results.
This is just what I would do......YMMV
p.s. The cheescake flavor I complained about earlier has now been fixed.... by using the way I explained above....It had fully steeped and was over flavored. Now is very good.
Fractioning is a great tool. For testing mature dates for blending as well as comparison of secondary flavors. I never meant to suggest don't steep. Rather to turn the problem on its head and consider that a loss of flavor strength over time (of some ingredients)…for the long wait…may affect the outcome more. Most ingredients I've found tend to integrate very readily unless you go water soluble oils or those that tend to separation (like nicotine). Speaking of which, I agree with you…I prefer mine shaken, not stirred. Add some warmth to speed up the process. Then some subtle but persistent circulation until oxidation peaks makes for a smooth finish.
Good luck.
Would recommend trading the lemon for 1.5-2% dragon fruit. I agree with dc99 you need to lower graham and fresh cream. Personally I would drop the bavarian or the custard if you aren't getting the cream note you're looking for. Juicy sb is not one I care for so no comment there. Now that you've posted the recipe what I would do is
Dragon fruit 1.5%
Cream fresh 1%
Bavarian or custard 1.5%
Graham Crust 2.5%
Red touch 3%
Juicy Strawberry 3%
You are pairing 2 mid level strawberries here, if you have another sb I wold try it and drop the red or the juicy. This is still 12.5% flavor so shouldn't be weak per se. Most dragon fruits need 3 days and they don't fade. I doubt the juicy sb would hold up to a 6w steep. Maybe add it after 4 weeks to the mix. This is only what I would do. No matter what you try please let us know how it works out. We all learn from each other.
Dragon fruit 1.5%
Cream fresh 1%
Bavarian or custard 1.5%
Graham Crust 2.5%
Red touch 3%
Juicy Strawberry 3%
You are pairing 2 mid level strawberries here, if you have another sb I wold try it and drop the red or the juicy. This is still 12.5% flavor so shouldn't be weak per se. Most dragon fruits need 3 days and they don't fade. I doubt the juicy sb would hold up to a 6w steep. Maybe add it after 4 weeks to the mix. This is only what I would do. No matter what you try please let us know how it works out. We all learn from each other.
Before you make another reduced mix of your recipe, may I suggest you take half of what you already mixed ie. if you made/have 30 ml take 15 ml etc., or whatever amt you want and put in another bottle. Add the same amount of pg/vg in whatever ratio you want. Then shake and taste to see if flavors can now be tasted. This will serve a couple of purposes.
1. If you were going to make a new mix only using half % of the same flavors that you used before this will accomplish the same thing with an already steeped mix. Just wait over night for the extra pg/vg to blend with the flavoring....Be sure to shake the dickens out of the new bottle before sticking it back in the cabinet. Leave the cap on.
2. You can then judge(after tasting/vaping) if the % of flavors is where you want them. Even if this is not the desired end mix you want, its better than just throwing it down the drain. At least this may help to answer some of your questions, and you will still have some of the old mix to try again at a different %. This mix will work if you need to reduce further . (I would not add any more flavoring to this bottle)
If you want a higher % then you need to use the original bottle mix(should still have some left in the original bottle).
Remember I only gave examples of how many mls to use. You could use 2.5ml of old flavoring and add equal amounts of pg/vg....same results.
This is just what I would do......YMMV
p.s. The cheescake flavor I complained about earlier has now been fixed.... by using the way I explained above....It had fully steeped and was over flavored. Now is very good.
Yes...I did think about doing this but then wondered about whether it worked so thanks for this I will consider it next time this happens...it may not though because I have decided to always aim for 15% total flavouring as a maximum and am going to treat all recipes at 20+ with deep suspicion
I can't do it on this one now because I finished the last tank this morning.
Fractioning is a great tool. For testing mature dates for blending as well as comparison of secondary flavors. I never meant to suggest don't steep. Rather to turn the problem on its head and consider that a loss of flavor strength over time (of some ingredients)…for the long wait…may affect the outcome more. Most ingredients I've found tend to integrate very readily unless you go water soluble oils or those that tend to separation (like nicotine). Speaking of which, I agree with you…I prefer mine shaken, not stirred. Add some warmth to speed up the process. Then some subtle but persistent circulation until oxidation peaks makes for a smooth finish.
Good luck.
Yes....I'm learning a lot out of this thread which is great...
I was about to answer you today and disagree entirely with your anti steep rhetoric...heeey but no need now
Thanks very much....I'm going to definitely trade the lemon for Dragon fruit and will definitely drop the GC also. I have been looking through other similar recipes and those that have GC have it at much lower quantities. I have no other strawbs so have to stick with these two but given what you have said I may adjust the ratios.
As discussed before I'm really only looking for juices that hold up to some time so won't be adding things late in mixes I don't think!! At this stage in the learning curve i'm going to stick with my stability argument. I'm still going to make some SnV's though so will add faders in this case but for the steepers they're going to have to fade off to their stable levels...obviously Im assuming that there isn't a flavor out there that fades to nothing within a reasonable timescale.
I'll definitely report back...Only way to learn IMO networking, discussion and sharing...all the best to you
Yes....I'm learning a lot out of this thread which is great...
Thx. No worries. Disagreement is all part of the learning process. After all 70% of what we perceive in vaping is in the mind. So who'se to say what's right for you. Get to know me and you'll see that I'm all about baseline methodologies, the useful signposts at the popular center which may guide our predilections. Our best shot for getting to what we like. From there it's a universe of exploration beyond our preconceptions.
As to steeping out beyond a week or so, I'd like to hear the "why" it works in a specific example. It may, plausibly. But I needs to know.
Some of the most effective mixers I know both commercial and popular are strictly shake'n vape.
I have one valuable word to share…consistency. Mark your method well.
Good luck.
p.s. Flavoring density (in a solution) is what you're talking about when you place a "cap" on percentages. Rather than locking in the method before the test, consider that flavorings like strawberry can fade (some mfg more than others). Depending on the complexity or richness of the recipe that may limit your bases to a peak or max that yields a great juice that's disappointingly subtle. I don't believe flavorings gain strength with time or steeping. You can't get what's not there. You can get the net of what's long gone though.
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My example was just that to help give you a visual concept of what I was speaking to. You can certainly use any % you deem necessary to achieve your goal. As to whether or not this works? Many members still here today did not get the same advantages you are now enjoying, the experiences of those members gives you the best shot ever of accomplishing what you seek. If you do not wish to benefit from those members, it is certainly your choice.Yes...I did think about doing this but then wondered about whether it worked so thanks for this I will consider it next time this happens...it may not though because I have decided to always aim for 15% total flavouring as a maximum and am going to treat all recipes at 20+ with deep suspicion
Have a good day.
No probs....I like what you say about baseline methodologies as that's what I am trying to work from here.Thx. No worries. Disagreement is all part of the learning process. After all 70% of what we perceive in vaping is in the mind. So who'se to say what's right for you. Get to know me and you'll see that I'm all about baseline methodologies, the useful signposts at the popular center which may guide our predilections. Our best shot for getting to what we like. From there it's a universe of exploration beyond our preconceptions.
As to steeping out beyond a week or so, I'd like to hear the "why" it works in a specific example. It may, plausibly. But I needs to know.
Some of the most effective mixers I know both commercial and popular are strictly shake'n vape.
I have one valuable word to share…consistency. Mark your method well.
Good luck.
p.s. Flavoring density (in a solution) is what you're talking about when you place a "cap" on percentages. Rather than locking in the method before the test, consider that flavorings like strawberry can fade (some mfg more than others). Depending on the complexity or richness of the recipe that may limit your bases to a peak or max that yields a great juice that's disappointingly subtle. I don't believe flavorings gain strength with time or steeping. You can't get what's not there. You can get the net of what's long gone though.
With steeping a 6 week steep is the longest I've heard I don't know if this is going to be too long for some of my mixes but I've decided to take that approach because I can be pretty certain that it isn't under steeped. Also I expect that my juices should all be stable for at least that time so it shouldn't make any difference if I've left a 2 week steeper for 4 weeks more. At the moment I am working on the assumption that every juice reaches a stable state within and up to a 6 week period and then should stay that way. I will try and give you an example as my experience grows....I'm not promising though
I agree absolutely about consistency. That and a baseline are essential ingredients to any scientific study.
I have just remixed this weeks SnV at a 50% flavoring density (thanks for the technical term) as compared to the original but my baseline is slightly skewed now as I have also dropped the % of the GC
Time will tell if it is correct that fading flavours will be such a problem to stabilise that they are only useful in a SnV. I don't believe so at the moment but I hear what you are saying and I will be the first one to change my view and admit it if it proves to be the case. The problem for me at the moment is that every mix I have used as an SnV has changed drastically in just a few days so hence my attitude.
This discussion will have a lot of mileage I suspect
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