Replacement for nichrome coil...

[Scubabatdan]

I like the look of that Dan. Would the ceramic piece around the heater be replaceable or is a all in one unit? i.e. would the sun rod come out to aid in cleaning?

Jason

It would be a seperate unit, the rod could be removed for cleaning, but the entire assembly woud have to be removed for that. The outer casing would act as a heat shield so no ones fingers get burnt. The inner heating element can be slid into place, but making it perminant i do not believe is necessary. As the first couple uses should bake a seal into place so fluid does not flow to the bottom. Have been thinking about that issue.
Dan

 

[Quit4myKids]

Dan, I like the basic principle of pooling the fluid, but I forsee implementation and usage problems. We run into the problem off running it dry and getting really hot, since pooling the liquid over the heating area is going to keep the heating surface cooler than the spec. Where would the liquid go once one was done vaping? Probably to the side and bottom, where it would evaporate (overnight, or over a few days on non-use), creating a gooey, stick mess.

I think we are better off only delivering the liquid we are ready to vaporize, and keeping the heater at as consistent a temperature as possible. If we only use 40% of the heating surface, the heater will recover faster, as the unsaturated heating area will conduct heat to the saturated area.

I really wish I had your graphics skills!!

Kinabaloo, the magical circuit is a trade secret, and he would reveal it to me. Based on what I've seen, I believe it is a rolled up flexible coil of traces (picture just the conductive traces from a printed circuit board). The "control" is in the material used, and how long, wide and thick those traces will be when the circuit is printed. I'm sure there are some fairly complex calculations that one could use to build a spreadsheet to project the heat and resistance based on voltage and ohm requirements, and could even calculate the required physical properties (trace material, trace length/width).

I'm not sure if that addresses it for you. I'm expecting to chat with the rep again late this evening, so if there are any specific questions that haven't already been addressed in the thread, now would be a good time to ask.

Q4mK

 

[Some Guy]

It is Just a concept test. A prototype of a prototype.
Keep it simple as possible.
The only thing I don't care for is the cold tip of non porous ceramic. I think it will just be in the way. The "cold tip" should be porous like is already used and can be added easily enough.

Just my 25 cents

 

[Scubabatdan]

Dan, I like the basic principle of pooling the fluid, but I forsee implementation and usage problems. We run into the problem off running it dry and getting really hot, since pooling the liquid over the heating area is going to keep the heating surface cooler than the spec. Where would the liquid go once one was done vaping? Probably to the side and bottom, where it would evaporate (overnight, or over a few days on non-use), creating a gooey, stick mess.

I think we are better off only delivering the liquid we are ready to vaporize, and keeping the heater at as consistent a temperature as possible. If we only use 40% of the heating surface, the heater will recover faster, as the unsaturated heating area will conduct heat to the saturated area.

I really wish I had your graphics skills!!

Again I dont think it will pool persay, I created that design in case of flooding, if the element is wicking the fluid then I doubt that it will pool since it has to runn down a hot element in the first place in order to "pool" But having a say .5mm space between the heating element and the ceramic holder will be close enough to vaporise any fluid that does pool IMO.

And how should we only using 40% of the heating area? 6mm in the holder, 4mm for the juice to run down (Hot) and 2mm of contact area to wick the juice?

Dan

 

[kinabaloo]

Kinabaloo, the magical circuit is a trade secret, and he would reveal it to me. Based on what I've seen, I believe it is a rolled up flexible coil of traces (picture just the conductive traces from a printed circuit board). The "control" is in the material used, and how long, wide and thick those traces will be when the circuit is printed. I'm sure there are some fairly complex calculations that one could use to build a spreadsheet to project the heat and resistance based on voltage and ohm requirements, and could even calculate the required physical properties (trace material, trace length/width).

I'm not sure if that addresses it for you. I'm expecting to chat with the rep again late this evening, so if there are any specific questions that haven't already been addressed in the thread, now would be a good time to ask.

Q4mK

Q1: How is the temp set? At manufacture or can be set/adjusted later?

Q2: The circuit will allow fast heat up but then limit the temp to the chosen figure? (Part of the secret is probably PWM, the second part is how the sensor works and controls the PWM).

Just to be clear that we have full temp control - give this scenario: we set a temp of say 175C and it indeed is, at 3.7v. It will still be 175C even if someone connects it to a 5V supply?

So if we said 3ohm coil at 3.7v then the current would be ~1.2 A and the power in just over 4W. Ask the person to confirm if given a temp target of say 175C and the likely dimensions (this will affect the heat capacity), that a heat up time of no more than 1/2 second is possible (or a lower resistance would be better).

 

[Ralph Hilton]

I think this matter of the temperature needs clarifying!
From my understanding the circuit is a purely electrical one which limits the current as temperature goes up due to the electrical characteristics of the metals used. If that is the case then and the temperature specified is the stable end temperature then that temperature will take a while to stabilize - perhaps several seconds as the power will be decreased when it is close to that temperature. So if one wants a temperature of say 200C to be reached fairly quickly then it will be necessary to specify a somewhat higher temperature as the one at which the device stabilizes - perhaps 250C.
I really don't see that a sealed device such as detailed could have a built in pwm.
The way I think it works is that specifying 3.7 volts and 200C would mean that running it on a higher voltage would result in a higher temperature. Lowering the resistance of the device would result in it reaching its target temperature faster.

 

[SurfVortex]

Hope I am not too late...
My opinion runs with the team as far as all of the minimums go. My experience is that VG starts to vaporize at 175C, so I would suggest an Optimal Surface Temp. of 200-225C.max.(we want to stay away from 260C.-the Mr. Hyde conversion temp.)
Length of Non-Heated Tip- no opinion.
Also, I think the standard atty resistance is around 3-3.5 ohms.
THANK YOU Q4MK!!!!!!!!!! for your dedicated work.And THANK YOU to everyone participating in this thread! This is truly amazing and beautiful!
SV

 

[roadkilldeluxe]

Q1: How is the temp set? At manufacture or can be set/adjusted later?

Q2: The circuit will allow fast heat up but then limit the temp to the chosen figure? (Part of the secret is probably PWM, the second part is how the sensor works and controls the PWM).

From my understanding the circuit is a purely electrical one which limits the current as temperature goes up due to the electrical characteristics of the metals used.

It sounds like Quit4myKids is just speculating, but "Based on what I've seen, I believe it is a rolled up flexible coil of traces (picture just the conductive traces from a printed circuit board). The "control" is in the material used, and how long, wide and thick those traces will be when the circuit is printed. I'm sure there are some fairly complex calculations that one could use to build a spreadsheet to project the heat and resistance based on voltage and ohm requirements, and could even calculate the required physical properties (trace material, trace length/width)."

I have a feeling that's pretty accurate. I would guess that it uses PTC principles to reach the target temperature. In that case, Ralph would be correct about the slower stabilization near the upper bounds.

 

[kinabaloo]

I think this matter of the temperature needs clarifying!
From my understanding the circuit is a purely electrical one which limits the current as temperature goes up due to the electrical characteristics of the metals used.

No combination of metals will achieve much in terms of temp control. It is surly done by the chip. Just want to be sure that is the case.

Must sleep now (2am here). Will catch up tomorrow ...

 

[roadkilldeluxe]

No combination of metals will achieve much in terms of temp control. It is surly done by the chip.

They could be using thermoplastic polymers to vary their own resistance sharply at defined points. No chip needed!

graph

 

[logandbz]

Hello, new to the forums and fairly new to vaping (about 6 weeks). I gotta say, Bravo! Great ideas and lots of input. Forgive me for jumping right in here...

After reading the thread I agree with Quit4mykids, we need to get some ordered and begin testing before we go too much into design.

I believe we should get the minimum on all aspects, as we know, we are most likely not going to get it right the first time. Always better to start with the minimum and go from there.

Diameter (min 3.8mm): 3.8mm
Length of heating area (minimum 6mm): 6mm
Length of non-heated tip: 2mm / I really like Scubabatdan's ideas, and believe its at least worth a go. We can test temps on every part of the ceramic when we get them. If it's not workable, no big loss. We can still get quite a bit of testing done, even if this idea doesn't work.
Length of non-heated base (minimum 4mm): 4mm
Optimal Surface temperature: 200C a good starting point.
Voltage (3.7v to maintain compatibility): Agreed, 3.7
Ohms (I saw 2.5-3 was good? Can someone confirm?): From what I understand, the Ohms will be a direct result of the supplied voltage (3.7), and the desired temp (200C). So I have no input on this one.

I would really like to get these things so we can start testing temperature. How hot it gets, how long it takes to get to desired temp, hot spots etc.. There are a lot of variables that can rule out certain designs. Bottom line, we need to start testing.

 

[Quit4myKids]

My apologies, folks. I meant to say "he wouldn't reveal it to me".

I'm guessing at how this magic circuit works, but I can't imagine there is any logic involved other than basic electronics formulas. I doubt that PWM or anything like it is at play, but rather exactly what Ralph and Roadkill described.

Think about it this way... a given voltage will heat a coil to a specific temperature. The same voltage will also heat a longer coil, just to a lower temperature. If one needs to lower the temperature of the heater, simply increase the amount of material (thickness) in the coil. Need less resistance, use a more cunductive material. I don't believe there is any control of the heater temperature, once it has been cast, other than adjusting the power source. There is no chip in the device that I am aware of, and the rep said nothing about it. I don't think I'm going to be talking with him tonight, but tomorrow is more likely. Here is the trend that I see for the initial order:

Length of heating area (minimum 6mm): 6mm
Length of non-heated tip (I assumed 0, but there is some discussion): 0mm
Length of non-heated base (minimum 4mm): 4mm
Optimal Surface temperature (it seems 160-200C, but I need a number): 200C
Voltage (3.7v to maintain compatibility): 3.7
Ohms (I saw 2.5-3 was good? Can someone confirm?): 3

Unless there are objections, I will order the first 10 units, and then start figuring out the list of recipients. As I said to begin with, I can front this purchase, but will need to be reimbursed for the unit price and shipping costs ($25 USD incluing USPS First Class within the United States). I will begin contacting everyone who PM'd me as soon as the order is placed. It will take a week to make them, and another 7-10 days to ship them from China, then a couple of days in the mail from here, so please be patient.

Thanks,

Q4mK

 

[logandbz]

Everything looks good Quit4mykids, except I would really like to see what possibilities could come from the non-heated tip. 1mm-2mm would be excellent, but it seems most people aren't interested in this.

Seeing as I walked into this literally minutes ago, and might not even be in line to receive one, I guess I may not have much say Either way, I will be watching this, and hoping to get involved.

 

[Scubabatdan]

My apologies, folks. I meant to say "he wouldn't reveal it to me".

I'm guessing at how this magic circuit works, but I can't imagine there is any logic involved other than basic electronics formulas. I doubt that PWM or anything like it is at play, but rather exactly what Ralph and Roadkill described.

Think about it this way... a given voltage will heat a coil to a specific temperature. The same voltage will also heat a longer coil, just to a lower temperature. If one needs to lower the temperature of the heater, simply increase the amount of material (thickness) in the coil. Need less resistance, use a more cunductive material. I don't believe there is any control of the heater temperature, once it has been cast, other than adjusting the power source. There is no chip in the device that I am aware of, and the rep said nothing about it. I don't think I'm going to be talking with him tonight, but tomorrow is more likely. Here is the trend that I see for the initial order:

Length of heating area (minimum 6mm): 6mm
Length of non-heated tip (I assumed 0, but there is some discussion): 0mm 2mm
Length of non-heated base (minimum 4mm): 4mm
Optimal Surface temperature (it seems 160-200C, but I need a number): 200C
Voltage (3.7v to maintain compatibility): 3.7
Ohms (I saw 2.5-3 was good? Can someone confirm?): 3

Unless there are objections, I will order the first 10 units, and then start figuring out the list of recipients. As I said to begin with, I can front this purchase, but will need to be reimbursed for the unit price and shipping costs ($25 USD incluing USPS First Class within the United States). I will begin contacting everyone who PM'd me as soon as the order is placed. It will take a week to make them, and another 7-10 days to ship them from China, then a couple of days in the mail from here, so please be patient.

Thanks,

Q4mK

One thing I am advocating for is the cold 2mm section added to the tip, as stated previously they can always grind it off. But I can not add to it.
Does anyone else have an objection to this? Everything else I am fine with.
Dan

 

[Ralph Hilton]

I would be inclined to ask the rep a couple of questions before ordering -
1. Given the above specification, how long is the estimated time for the device to reach 200C ?
2. If the voltage delivered to the device drops to 3 volts how will it behave?
I'm a bit concerned that as specified it may be slow to respond and underrated especially if the voltage drops a bit.

 

[Bubo]

One thing I am advocating for is the cold 2mm section added to the tip, as stated previously they can always grind it off. But I can not add to it.
Does anyone else have an objection to this? Everything else I am fine with.
Dan

I gotta second (or third myself, seeings I think I suggested it..)
This is a test batch, so more options at this point might make more sense - adding the cold 2mm tip makes sense to me, it can be ground or filed off for those who don't want it... But for those who do want test it, it can't be added on!

(I'm going to retreat back to my corner now....)

 

[SurfVortex]

I would be inclined to ask the rep a couple of questions before ordering -
1. Given the above specification, how long is the estimated time for the device to reach 200C ?
2. If the voltage delivered to the device drops to 3 volts how will it behave?
I'm a bit concerned that as specified it may be slow to respond and underrated especially if the voltage drops a bit.

Excellent questions.
And, with or w/out the 2mm cold section, I'm going to start pacing enthusiastically soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SV

 

[Quit4myKids]

As predicted, I didn't speak with the guy last night (fell asleep at my keyboard!), but will be in touch with him soon. Good work on everything, guys. I'll order it with the 2mm unheated tip, just keep in mind that we now have a 12mm heater, which (according to my unprofessional measurements) will not fit between the existing pot and cartridge without lengthening the atty tube or shortening the cartridge. I hope my measurements are off, or that this tip stays cold. Either way, if it doesn't work, the tip can probably be ground down.

Heating time will not likely be under a second. I told him that was what we were shooting for, and he said it was impossible. Apparently, it takes about a second for the surface material to heat up, but the device should reach temp within "a couple of seconds". He asked me to put together the spec, and email him with questions.

Please give feedback regarding these questions I have compiled for the manufacturer's rep:

Assuming a heater specification of 3.8mm diameter, 4mm unheated base, 6mm heated area, 3.7V, 2.5 ohm, 200C:

1. How quickly would the heater reach 125C? 150C? 175C? 200C? How long to cool to 150C, 100C, 50C? Is there an existing graph that we can look at? Will adjusting the resistance cause the device to heat faster? We need the time needed to achieve temp to be as fast as possible.

2. What is the conductivity of the non-heated ceramic? How how would the ceramics get next to the leads? If we add a 2mm unheated tip, how hot would the tip of the rod get when the heater was operated at 200C?

3. What happens if a user connects to 5V or 3V instead of 3.7V? (this happens quite a bit with the existing tech -rc) We assume it would get hotter at 5V, but how hot? Can we cast in a "fuse" so that under no circumstances will the device exceed 250C? (260C is the temp where the some of the basic components of the liquid convert to toxic substances, so we need to avoid this at any cost. -rc) Also, how would these voltages affect heating cooling times in question #1?

4. Do you have the facility to do other ceramic casting? Specifically, there is a concept that came out of our meetings (drawings attached) that involve heat insulating (as opposed to heat conducting) non-porous ceramics that would either encase or otherwise surround the heater rod. If this could be cast with the base of the rod, this would effectively seal the unit, reduce overall costs for us, and would provide an ideal solution with a single vendor.

I got some sleep, so I will be up late tonight. I want to make myself available to everyone, so if someone wants to discuss something in real time, I can be reached at the following IM accounts most of the time:

AIM: Quit4myKids
Yahoo Messenger: Quit4myKids
MSN Messenger/Live: Quit4myKids@hotmail.com

I don't check email for these accounts, so don't bother sending any. If you want to email me, please use ECF, or PM me for my private email address. If I start getting spammed on these IM accounts, I will shut them down.

Thanks again to everyone. This project couldn't be accomplished by any single person, but together we have made a significant amount of progress, with much more to come!

Q4mK

 

[Ralph Hilton]

That covers everything I was thinking of - looks good.

 

[Scubabatdan]

Excellent progress and superb questions. What is the picture you are attaching? If it is the one I did with the incorporated heating element in the ceramic material do you need me to make a 3d model of it?
Last question: What are the connections going to be at the bottom?
Dan