Reusable or Disposable?

[MNZ]

I think this is going to be a subject debated a fair bit over the next period of time as manufacturers develop new approaches to the problem of atomiser life.

What if there was a better atomiser out there ? What if it would last for a year or maybe longer ? Would you buy it if it wasn't $8.00 but more like $80 ?

What if there was a disposable that lasted a reasonable length of time per cart and was price favourable, would you accept that to get the end price down, there might be cuts in build quality and there maybe out of the box failures ?

 

[trog100]

@jarvis: really well done, but I must agree with Jag...

Even if it would work, the pieces are so tiny, not every user would be able to handle these small pieces I think...

News: We have just finished a trow away atomizer inside the cartridge model, just like the LT. Ok to be honest: we purchased the LT and copied it, then we improved it. Needs a bit more testing but looks alright for now... it's just that we think it still is kind of unnecessary waste, so we are considering other options too.

it is unnecessary waste.. its going from one extreme to the other.. another option would be to include (free) atomizers with every box of carts.. the price of the carts would be worked out to cover the cost of the atomizers..

anything is better then the current return merry go round.. one (current) atomizer with every ten box of carts for example would do the trick..

disposable after xxx carts is the sensible way to go.. it helps the planet as well..

trog

 

[Ludo]

that could indeed be a good alternative!

 

[trog100]

that could indeed be a good alternative!

an atomizer with xxx number of carts is the only alternative to throw one away each time a cart is changed..

the customer has to know when to throw them away.. it could be every twenty carts.. but for guaranteed as new functionality and to be seen as truly disposable it needs to be less..

one atomizer every ten carts is about right i think..

when the customer buys the original first kit.. he registers it.. this then entitles him to the free atomizer with every ten cart system..

the initial kit price could be kept higher than the simple sum total of the parts to solve the other problem..

the customer is locked into your system and everyone is happy..

u can also use the "save the planet" thing to your advantage

trog

 

[leaford]

Damn you trog!!!! Damn you!!!

That was my secret plan for the business I'd start if I won a half-decent lottery pot!! Concentrate on selling the cartridges, with a Free atomizer every 15 cartridges. (Well, maybe 25. Or 50. Whatever, I'd work it out. )

But now my secret plot has been revealed, and someone's gonna copy it and beat poor, broke me to it.

Maybe I should listen to Gary Coleman and make a Cashcall.

 

[TropicalBob]

There likely will be both categories for a long, long time -- assuming they are approved by government agencies at all.

Remember Zippo lighters? Flints were very tiny, but we replaced them. We refilled the core with squirted liquid (napalm basically). Zippos are still sold, but were eclipsed by throwaway lighters. My latest pipe lighter is a combo: I can refill it about three times with butane, but when the flint dies, I have to toss it.

Remember razor blades and shavers. We used to replace the blade. Now we toss the entire shaver.

And think of roll-your-own cigarettes. Lots of advancements to make this cheap practice easier, but rollies are still a tiny segment of the tobacco-product market.

Whenever I explain my e-cigarette to smoking friends, they're always intensely interested until I'm asked how often I must drip, or refill, or change a battery. End of discussion. Too much trouble. Gotta light it, use it, toss it. Thirty times a day. Not one has expressed interest in buying a refillable e-cig. When it's as simple as buying a pack of cigarettes, they tell me, they'll try it.

I expect we'll see continued development of true disposables. I also expect we'll see something along the lines of Trog's excellent idea. But when these break into tobacco stores, resting beside Kool and Kent, it will be the disposable model (cheaper and easier to try out) that will attract the mass market.

Cover all bets, Ludo.

 

[Kate]

We don't really have a true disposable at the moment, even the Loong Totem uses rechargeable batteries. What we have is disposable and semi-disposable atomisers, inadequate batteries and in some cases unreliable switches.

A true disposable would use a cheap throw away battery and atomiser/cartridge. It would not be refillable. This would probably be less environmentally friendly than reusables or semi-disposables and there would be problems of getting consistent taste and nicotine levels but it would be good for specific occasions.

The semi-disposables we have now are not supposed to be considered disposables but they don't last long enough to be considered true reusables. Replacing atomisers per cartridge count is what we do now in a roundabout way except we can never be sure when they will need replacing without being wasteful. Being tied to a company for juice as well as hardware doesn't appeal to me, I like to be able to pick and choose from different suppliers for recipes I like and trust. Device manufacturers are not necessarily going to provide good eliquid, I don't think they should be tied together for service.

Reusables will need new technology. Decent generic batteries such as used with the Ruyan ecigar, Trog's Screwdriver and Janty USB cable would remove the high cost of replacing the overworked dedicated batteries that come with the devices. Switch technology should certainly be able to produce a long lasting, reliable switch, it's just a matter of making it look good. That leaves reusable atomisers. I don't know why somebody hasn't tried out the original Ruyan ultrasonic design. If it's because of cost I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be prepared to invest more money in an atomiser that lasts a year if that is its potential.

Another possibility is a hybrid device that uses components from different sources in a similar way hi-fi can be built with separates. Eventually all components could be interchangeable between brands and we could have cheap, generic rechargeable batteries, long lasting switches and an atomiser cartridge combo like the Loong Totem or a genuinely durable re-engineered reusable atomiser. I'd like a reusable, that would let me choose different eliquid brands and tastes for different moods.

 

[icemanmaz]

A throw away idea would be ok if we did not have to pay for the postage.
I have paid £26 for a full kit with free p&p and it has lasted over 2 months.
Its still going strong with no problems. So for me paying say £5 for a throw away e-cig would be a waste of money. And one other thing at the rate Royal Mail lose things in the post it could be well expensive.
On the other side if I could go to the local shop and buy a throw away e-cig not only would it be better it would be a good way for those who smoke to try it out.
One idea I had was a vending machine at an airport with throw away e-cigs. Imaging all the smokers buying it for a long haul flight.
If someone could invent a e-cig that could last for 14 hours for less than £5 and it could be sold in an airport or on the plane it would be a real money spinner.
NOTE TO ALL.
I came up with idea so if someone copies it I will sue for copyright.
All suppliers if you could come up with something pm me and I will go on dragons den and ask for £1000000 for 5%.
If you dont know what dragons den is you dont live in UK.

 

[TropicalBob]

If batteries are stopping progress, I'm tempted to say "find a new source of energy." Like -- blow into the e-cig and the force of your blow creates just enough power to heat an atomizer as you inhale the vapor. (I have flashlights and radios for hurricane use that create power with a few cranks of a handle. No batteries ever needed.)

But, what the heck, I'll buy into the cell phone model of power: At the end of the day, I don't throw my phone away because the battery is run down. I plug it in and recharge for another day's use. I'd do the same for a basic disposable cart/atomizer device. We need a cell phone-model e-cig with a battery that lasts a day or longer.

And, I'm with you on this, we need a Transformer hybrid, an either-or device. Such a bridge device could be the best of both worlds. I'd buy it!

 

[trog100]

one thing is for sure true disposables are a planetary disaster.. a small cheap-ish five in a packet disposable version of the ruyan e cigar could easily be made now..

these things really do need to be disposable/reusable.. just simply sold in a more sensible way.. if they are to be sold to the masses.. how often they are disposed of simply comes down to how long each component lasts.. right now it isnt very long..

loong totem looked to be on winner with their high value (high capacity) zippo like battery but they are full of bullsh-t and dont even have one made.. i would happily have payed them big money for the zippo battery part of the kit..

my screwdriver is simply like their zippo but i havnt felt the need to make it look like a tobacco product.. a bloody zippo lighter.. jeeesh..

the cheap-ish five in a packet disposable will appear.. but they wont be very planet friendly.. just imagine all those landfills full of dead batteries.. he he

i aint a businessman by inclination.. just for fun i might put a screwdriver up for auction on ebay next week.. just to see "who" buys it..

trog

 

[leaford]

I came up with idea so if someone copies it I will sue for copyright.
All suppliers if you could come up with something pm me and I will go on dragons den and ask for £1000000 for 5%.
If you dont know what dragons den is you dont live in UK.

I love Dragon's Den. If only American Inventor had been more like that. Of course, it could use a bit, just a bit, of AI's zany contraptions and kooky contestants. Just a touch. Not much.

 

[Nazareth]

To be honest- I don't even like how the vapor works from penstyles anymore- it's different than the vapor from the loongtotem, I'm not really sure what that differencei s except maybe the smoothness of the vapor inhale or soemthing- while smooth htough, it still gives a quite nice hit when high nic carts are used. Now, having said htis, I have not tried hte 4 hole atomizers for hte penstyles, so I can't make the comparison to those, but I had becoem quite disenchanted with the hard draw of the 2 hole atomizers, and hte harshness of hte hit- & when I tried the loong for hte first time- I knew immediately it was a nicer draw, smoother hit, and produced twice as much vapor at least (soemtimes with a tripple-draw, it almost reaches 3 times the vapor, and is consistent htrouhgout hte day- I like the long lasting cartridges much better as well, as the design is such that it really does last quite a bitl ogner than traditional penstyles-

But.... the batteries ... grrr... I don't so much mind as I do still get 3+ hours, and hte charge is around 3-4 hours for a worn down one, but I switch mine out throughout hte day so no big deal. I really think that with a little tweakign to the design, the throwaways are hte way to go, as they can be refilled and used until they simply crap out on ya, then put another in at that point. I'm getting a coupel of days now from cartridges, and I can vary the taste with different liquids, and hwen hte atomizers burns the cotton- I just pop a new one in- That burnign of cotton though is the tweak that needs to be made & I think it will be a perfect set-up then- Use hte atomizer till it dies, then pop another in.

Keep the batteries rechargeable though- like Trog said, filling landfills with batteries won't be good, and ya just know people are goign ot throw 'disposable batteries' out hte window of car while driving.

This atomizer in cartridge is probably the best way to go as we have hte option of simply throwing hte atomizer cartridge away when the factory prefill dries out, or, refilling for htose who don't mind takign an extra 10 seconds out of hteir life to do so, thus extending hte life of hte cartridge/atomizer to a couple of days or so. The only problem though would be for the manufacturers/sellers who won't get quite hte profits from those who refill.

One thing that NEEDS to be doen however is to come up with adapter kits to use other batteries- but I spose that'd be up to us consumers to coem up with

 

[Mr.Darcy]

i think an improved,cheaper and more locally available version of the LT would be a god send...id buy it in a second...i bet we all would.

 

[Nazareth]

Ecigg might just have that product- but hten the shipping from them- iffy- Yup we need cheaper and more local/reliable ones for sure- The loong is quite good, but liek I said, it does need tweaking to prevent the burnt cotton (however, all atomizers 'burn', these just don't burn a fiber-like material like pesntyles do- it just burns the cotton wrapping- It alos needs to get a tweak in the flavor department a bit- the design does cut down on the flavor a bit- but refilling does help some, just not quite enough in my opinion- Those are hte only two issues I've really got with the design- the battery issue/price will be overcoem I'm sure, especially if Ecig batteries fit- so that's not big deal design issue-wise- but hte other two issues do need to be worked on

 

[trog100]

this come down to money thow naz.. lets not forget some atomizers cost plenty.. making em cheap enough to throw away each time a cart is changed must be difficult..

bob hit the nail on the head when he said all his friends lose interest when they realize u cant just take one out of the packet and smoke it.. the chinese are trying to cater for people that want the impossible.. they dont overly care about landfill sites either.. to feed our desire for "gizmos" they are wrecking their own piece of the planet.. they aint gonna care much about our piece of it..

so we are talking two different things here.. the design of the new atomizers and the throw away each cart change factor.. there is no reason one (using the new design) cant be made a little better that isnt thrown away each time a cart is changed

the answer to the burning wool problem is easy.. surround the heater coil with wire wool just like the old design has.. it will still work and wont burn the nylon wool..

a hint.. for someone.. ??

trog

 

[leaford]

Now that is a good idea. Surround the vertical heating coil with a wire wool cylinder, and attach the wrapping to the outside of the cylinder. Put it in a mouthpiece cylinder with a pop off top, similar to how Naz does it.

 

[Nazareth]

this come down to money thow naz.. lets not forget some atomizers cost plenty.. making em cheap enough to throw away each time a cart is changed must be difficult..

bob hit the nail on the head when he said all his friends lose interest when they realize u cant just take one out of the packet and smoke it.. the chinese are trying to cater for people that want the impossible.. they dont overly care about landfill sites either.. to feed our desire for "gizmos" they are wrecking their own piece of the planet.. they aint gonna care much about our piece of it..

so we are talking two different things here.. the design of the new atomizers and the throw away each cart change factor.. there is no reason one (using the new design) cant be made a little better that isnt thrown away each time a cart is changed

the answer to the burning wool problem is easy.. surround the heater coil with wire wool just like the old design has.. it will still work and wont burn the nylon wool..

a hint.. for someone.. ??

trog

I dunno Trog- people I talk to don't seem put off by the concept- just talked to brother in law about it & He's goign to get one- I've had several people more put off by hte price than with changing the cartridges to be honest

The wool idea might work, but the heater coil might just heat the wool up to where it burned the cotton too- but perhaps not, but even if it did, it would take longer for cotton to burn-

 

[Kimmiegrif]

I have changed my mind...the ones now are partially disposable if used hard. I would rather have very very high quality die hard ecigs that last forever! I would pay some dollars for that. Then if for some reason the govts decide they can't be sold...we'd all ready have them, then it would just be the juice we'd have to learn to make...change my vote please to reusable.

 

[leaford]

I would like both, really. The disposables are convenient, cheap (or could be), and reliable (if one fails, toss it and move on). But, at the same time it's a consumer electronic device, and I am used to keeping me electronics long enough to get to know it and its quirks, to invest it with personality, and even some emotional attachment. You don't want to get between me and my Pocket PC Phone, for example. I would like to be able to do the same with my trusty e-cig, but they keep breaking up with me just when I'm still falling in love!

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

Now this here's a very interesting thread. We DO have disposable devices, but they're party pieces - the throwaway cigars. I loved the ones I got but the price point is hard. Basically I'm going to use them like I use champagne - as a treat on a special occasion. Use and toss cigs are still some way away. I'd buy such a thing if it ever got off the blue-sky board and on to ebay but I think venality will strangle it at birth.

Trog, I'll keep my eye out for your ebay gizmos (gotta be a winner - I'll back myself to replace the atomiser when she blows) but I won't bid unless you can supply a chinese instruction manual.

Do you sell under the trog100 ID - or could you post the item ID when it's up? On the other hand PM me - who needs the competition...

Emp