School Me...on coil resistance please.

[Bored2Tears]

Hello all.

I posted a thread previously that was primarily about issues I'm having with a Kanger Protank 2 and Protank 3. I got a lot of good tips, but ultimately I think the one that helped the most was to try a lower resistance coil than what the Protank 2 came with.

Here is my setup: X6 battery, which is 1300mah, and is variable voltage for three settings: 3.6V, 3.8V, or 4.2V. I'm trying to run the Protank 2 and 3. (I wanted to try em both out for comparison). The Protank 2 was authentic, the 3 was a cheap clone.

The PT 2 came with a 2.5ohm coil. It ran horribly on any voltage....but I fought through it for a week not realizing that the resistance might be too high. Put in a 1.8 ohm coil this morning and the PT2 is running like a rocket now.

Given my voltage options on my battery, I thought I could reasonably run anything from 1.5ohm to 3.0ohm coils, with the best range being 2.0 to 2.4. However, when I bought additional coils for the PT2, the vendor only had 1.8ohm available.

I do vape a cinnamon liquid, and have found I need to regularly clean off the coils or performance drops about midway through the day.

Please explain to me: 1. What resistance attys should work best with my setup? 2. Why didn't the 2.5 ohm coil run at all, even on 4.2volts? 3. I have no idea what to run on the PT3.....but whatever I have in that one works miserably. Are there good options with the dual coil PT3, or is my battery not going to work with that clearomizer at all?

Thank you so much. I have read extensively on coils, resistance, and the like but frankly all I come up with is that the 2.0 to 3.0 ohm range should have been fine with my battery limitations. My actual experience with it is showing different.

 

[Bored2Tears]

My thread is already buried with no replies.....

 

[DavidOck]

Hi BT2,

At 4.2 volts that 2.5Ω coil should be drawing right at 7 watts, so should vape, but maybe not satisfactorily for you. Any lower voltage would of course also lower the watts consumed and give less vapor and flavor. Likewise, higher Ω coils will also result in lower power and vape. With a 1.8 coil you'll be hitting almost 10 watts. (9.8)

When you say the 2.5 "didn't work at all" - what exactly do you mean? As in NO vapor at all, or just weak? If no vapor, I'd suspect you didn't have a good connection between the topper and the battery. Not all coils are exactly the same, in their physical dimensions. A tiny difference in length, or a pushed pin (on the coil head or the battery) can result in a no connection situation.

I don't use any dual coil toppers, but there have been reports of some of them not working well on Spinner types, so that may also be the case with your X6. While the voltage would seem to not be a problem, it might be there's just not enough "oomph" to work well.

 

[Bored2Tears]

Hi BT2,

At 4.2 volts that 2.5Ω coil should be drawing right at 7 watts, so should vape, but maybe not satisfactorily for you. Any lower voltage would of course also lower the watts consumed and give less vapor and flavor. Likewise, higher Ω coils will also result in lower power and vape. With a 1.8 coil you'll be hitting almost 10 watts. (9.8)

When you say the 2.5 "didn't work at all" - what exactly do you mean? As in NO vapor at all, or just weak? If no vapor, I'd suspect you didn't have a good connection between the topper and the battery. Not all coils are exactly the same, in their physical dimensions. A tiny difference in length, or a pushed pin (on the coil head or the battery) can result in a no connection situation.

I don't use any dual coil toppers, but there have been reports of some of them not working well on Spinner types, so that may also be the case with your X6. While the voltage would seem to not be a problem, it might be there's just not enough "oomph" to work well.

The 2.5 ohm coil didn't work for more than a couple of vape sessions, with really weak vape production....but inevitably the flooding always began...and eventually no vapor production. I would think if there was no connection at all, then it wouldn't have fired . It was firing...but started weak, immediately followed by flooding.

The X6 is not a spinner, but you change the Voltage by pressing the button. Only three setting options: 3.6, 3.8 or 4.2.

Maybe talking in terms of wattage would be better, but since my battery only has voltage settings, I don't know for sure what watts I am running at. Would a Kanger PT2 or 3 be prone to flooding issues at aprox 7 watts?

Cause on the 1.8 ohm coil, set at 3.6V, it seems to be running like a champ as compared to when I had the 2.5ohm coil in there. I suppose the 2.5ohm coil could have been "bad" too.

When a coil is bad, doesn't it just taste burned or stop firing completely? I had neither of those issues, just no vapor production and eventual flooding of the Kanger.

 

[InTheShade]

Adding to David's excellent points, remember also that often the marked resistance is pretty much just a random number.

Back when I used to use pre-made coils, I would often find that the 2.4ohm coil I bought was pushing 3 ohms, or that 1.8 marked coil was actually closer to 2.5ohms.

Add this to the fact that a dual coil will heat up much more slowly than a single coil, and it doesn't surprise me that you were having a poor vaping experience.

Some people do manage to get a decent vape from a spinner / ego / x6 type battery with dual coils, but I also see many posts about users having issues and either going with a different clearomizer or going down the APV route.

 

[rusirius]

1. What resistance attys should work best with my setup? 2. Why didn't the 2.5 ohm coil run at all, even on 4.2volts? 3. I have no idea what to run on the PT3.....but whatever I have in that one works miserably. Are there good options with the dual coil PT3, or is my battery not going to work with that clearomizer at all?

1. There is no real answer to this... It's all about personal preference... You'll find people like myself who like to run large coils with lots surface area at very high wattages (i.e. 40-50 watts), or others who prefer very low resistance coils with much less surface area at the same or much much higher wattages... Meanwhile you'll find people who prefer a few simple wraps around a piece of silica at 7 watts... It's all just subjective... But... with that said... Remember that P = V^2 / R... Meaning the watts (P) you output will be the voltage squared divided by the resistance... So using that idea, along with your known voltages you can get an idea of how much power a particular coil will generate...

For instance... At 4.2V on your 2.5ohm coil, (4.2*4.2/2.5) = 7 watts... On the other hand, at 4.2V on a 1.8 ohm coil = almost 10 watts... That's a big difference...

BUT... you can't just go by wattage... I'll explain that as part of 2...

2. 7 watts isn't a lot of power... and that's ASSUMING your 4.2 volt setting is actually putting out 4.2 volts... Suppose for instance your battery wasn't freshly charged... and it was only outputting 3.6 volts instead... Now all of a sudden what should have been putting out 7 watts was actually only 5....I don't know if the x6 actually boosts voltage or if it just cuts it... So I don't know if this is part of the problem or not...

Also, wattage isn't all there is to it... Think about this.... If I took a piece of kanthal that was 2 1/2 inches long that happened to measure 2 ohms... Now if I take a coil of 10,000' of copper and it happens to measure out to 2 ohms... If I hook 5v up to both of them what's going to happen?

They are BOTH going to be putting out 12.5 watts.... But the small piece of kanthal is going to be super red hot... The copper? Nothing... won't even feel any warmth...

why? Because that 12.5 watts of heat is concentrated in a 2 1/2 inch area on one, and spread out over 10,000' on the other.... It's like putting a space heater in the middle of a field and expecting it to warm the earth...

That's what's known as "heat flux". How much of that wattage in heat is produced over a given area... and that's ultimately what kinda determines what kind of vape experience you have....

So even though you might have been running 7 watts, if that wattage was spread out over a lot of metal, then the heat flux is going to be very low...

BTW... A great calculator for figuring out heat flux is steam-engine.org

I hope that makes sense, but if not feel free to ask any additional questions....

3. Refer to number 2.... dual coil means two coils in parallel... which means more wire... When you are building your own coils, you can adjust things... by using much smaller diameter wire for instance... this means less total mass to heat which raises the heat flux... However, when you don't build your own coils you're kinda at the mercy of the manufacturer...

I would also suggest using a meter to check the voltage output... It's possible you are getting much lower voltage out than expected...

 

[Bored2Tears]

Adding to David's excellent points, remember also that often the marked resistance is pretty much just a random number.

Back when I used to use pre-made coils, I would often find that the 2.4ohm coil I bought was pushing 3 ohms, or that 1.8 marked coil was actually closer to 2.5ohms.

Add this to the fact that a dual coil will heat up much more slowly than a single coil, and it doesn't surprise me that you were having a poor vaping experience.

Some people do manage to get a decent vape from a spinner / ego / x6 type battery with dual coils, but I also see many posts about users having issues and either going with a different clearomizer or going down the APV route.

Yeah, I think you are summing up the dilemma for me....and most new vapers. I've spent $80 to $100 on equipment that was OK, but now is problematic for me. Everyone recommends that new vapers steer clear of mods and rebuildables...and I agree.

For me, I don't want another hobby. I don't want to be into the technical side of things. I just want equipment that's reliable and will work decently. I'm still in the phase of trying to make what I bought work. If this isn't going to work I will abandon it.

If I abandon the current setup, I am leaning toward MVP + Nautilus Aspire. The general consensus is that's a reasonably priced, fairly reliable setup. I need a glass tank system...as I have no interest in dripping constantly, and I want to be able to vape any flavor liquid I want.

Am I on the right path? I don't have time to rebuild coils. Are the Nautilus coils working reliably? I constantly read the QC on Kanger's coils is unreliable, and now I hear you can't even reasonably believe the ohms printed on the coil is true.

I will go on record to say this. The vape suppliers need consistent quality control. They could bring in MANY more new vapers if we were having good experiences. Many new vapers are NOT having good experiences because of the equipment issues, lack of QC, and reliability.

 

[rusirius]

Yeah, I think you are summing up the dilemma for me....and most new vapers. I've spent $80 to $100 on equipment that was OK, but now is problematic for me. Everyone recommends that new vapers steer clear of mods and rebuildables...and I agree.

For me, I don't want another hobby. I don't want to be into the technical side of things. I just want equipment that's reliable and will work decently. I'm still in the phase of trying to make what I bought work. If this isn't going to work I will abandon it.

If I abandon the current setup, I am leaning toward MVP + Nautilus Aspire. The general consensus is that's a reasonably priced, fairly reliable setup. I need a glass tank system...as I have no interest in dripping constantly, and I want to be able to vape any flavor liquid I want.

Am I on the right path? I don't have time to rebuild coils. Are the Nautilus coils working reliably? I constantly read the QC on Kanger's coils is unreliable, and now I hear you can't even reasonably believe the ohms printed on the coil is true.

I will go on record to say this. The vape suppliers need consistent quality control. They could bring in MANY more new vapers if we were having good experiences. Many new vapers are NOT having good experiences because of the equipment issues, lack of QC, and reliability.

You can still get a bad BVC coil... That's pretty much the case with any coils, but i believe it happens less often than Kanger...

As for the right path... if you aren't looking to build, etc... then yes... The MVP and Aspire is one heck of a great setup....You won't be disappointed and the MVP is no comparison to the X6.

 

[mountaingal]

I have used kanger coils for months now with absolutely no problems, they always seem to be within .2Ω of each other. I made 2 coils the other day they looked the same, same wire was used, same setup, one read .09Ω the other 1.3Ω? Why? I do not know. So, quality control in my opinion, is hard to do.

 

[DavidOck]

The 2.5 ohm coil didn't work for more than a couple of vape sessions, with really weak vape production....but inevitably the flooding always began...and eventually no vapor production. I would think if there was no connection at all, then it wouldn't have fired . It was firing...but started weak, immediately followed by flooding.

The X6 is not a spinner, but you change the Voltage by pressing the button. Only three setting options: 3.6, 3.8 or 4.2.

Maybe talking in terms of wattage would be better, but since my battery only has voltage settings, I don't know for sure what watts I am running at. Would a Kanger PT2 or 3 be prone to flooding issues at aprox 7 watts?

Cause on the 1.8 ohm coil, set at 3.6V, it seems to be running like a champ as compared to when I had the 2.5ohm coil in there. I suppose the 2.5ohm coil could have been "bad" too.

When a coil is bad, doesn't it just taste burned or stop firing completely? I had neither of those issues, just no vapor production and eventual flooding of the Kanger.

Other than really over-powering, not likely with your X6 (or any ego style battery, for that matter), you're not likely to "burn out" the coil itself. The only time I've actually done that was on a tub mod - or when dry burning to clean the gunk off.

But gunk can be a major inhibitor of a good vape, and all coils and wicks will accumulate that stuff. Some flavors deposit it faster than others, so there's no really good "average" time before the coil needs to be cleaned, dry burned, and, in the case of the single bottom coils, at least replacing the flavor wicks.

The limited voltage options on the X6 are one of the reasons I've personally avoided them. I prefer full adjustment with its range.

It's possible, too, that your X6 isn't really putting out the right voltage. I've not looked at any test reports on it, but those are really only valid for the unit tested, anyway... If you have a volt meter, you could investigate that possibility.

Flooding can be from any of several things. Drawing too hard is one, as it pulls juice into the firing chamber faster than it can be vaporized. Low power can also contribute to leaking and flooding. And when the flooding starts, it also drains down onto the connection area, and can make for a bad connection. So when it starts to flood, take the topper off and clean that area well. Invert the topper and blow gently from the bottom end (into a vaper towel!) to clear the passages.

Sometimes, too, factory coils just aren't well assembled. As Shade mentions, resistance may not be as marked, and I've had factory coils with the flavor wicks laid in wrong or even missing, and that, too, can cause leaks.

(BTW, there are many "calculators" for electrical purposes. On a Windows PC, a freebie called "Ohm's Law (v2) by Nikolay Todorov works well. There are also apps for Android tablets and, I'm sure, for the Mac world as well. Not essential, but nice tools to have. )

Leaking aside, it sounds like you've found what works for you and your hardware - 1.8.

 

[DavidOck]

I have used kanger coils for months now with absolutely no problems, they always seem to be within .2Ω of each other. I made 2 coils the other day they looked the same, same wire was used, same setup, one read .09Ω the other 1.3Ω? Why? I do not know. So, quality control in my opinion, is hard to do.

Uh, DO NOT USE the 0.09 one!!

Sounds like you didn't get the wire snipped close enough, or managed to cross them when installing the plug and pin. 0.09 is, essentially, a dead short, and catastrophic battery failure may result!!

 

[Bored2Tears]

Thanks all for the replies. Sounds once again like more trial and error....but for now the 1.8ohm coil w/ my X6 battery at 3.6 volt is working pretty good. If anything, it might be a bit hot. I think maybe 2.2 ohm will be the sweet spot for my setup...we will see.

There's just so much to consider with all this....and I haven't even begun the journey on figuring out a decent liquid . THat'll be another adventure.

 

[Bored2Tears]

I hope that makes sense, but if not feel free to ask any additional questions....

3. Refer to number 2.... dual coil means two coils in parallel... which means more wire... When you are building your own coils, you can adjust things... by using much smaller diameter wire for instance... this means less total mass to heat which raises the heat flux... However, when you don't build your own coils you're kinda at the mercy of the manufacturer...

I would also suggest using a meter to check the voltage output... It's possible you are getting much lower voltage out than expected...

Thanks for great info, Rusirius. I think I am going to ask additional questions. on point 3: For my Protank 3, which is dual coil (in parallel). I am noticing the manufactured coils options are roughly the same as the single coil Kangers for Evods and PT 2's. If I am getting good performance from 1.8ohm coils with my battery, should I stick with 1.8ohm dual coil? If anything I am making a guess that the single coil would probably be even better at 2.2ohm. 1.8 seems to be running a bit hot.

I realize this is all very scientific....but even if I get the voltmeter and check my battery's output... I would like to know what happens when I've raised the heat flux by using dual coil attys. I have a 3.6V to 4.2V range to work with. Would it be better to stick with 1.8ohm dual coil and raise Volts if needed, or should I consider a lower resistance dual coil?

For now, I just want to assume my X6 battery is supposed to put out a constant voltage as chosen...either 3.6, 3.8, or 4.2....or it cuts out. I believe it's a regulated battery...but I may be misunderstanding how that works, too.

 

[rusirius]

Thanks for great info, Rusirius. I think I am going to ask additional questions. on point 3: For my Protank 3, which is dual coil (in parallel). I am noticing the manufactured coils options are roughly the same as the single coil Kangers for Evods and PT 2's. If I am getting good performance from 1.8ohm coils with my battery, should I stick with 1.8ohm dual coil? If anything I am making a guess that the single coil would probably be even better at 2.2ohm. 1.8 seems to be running a bit hot.

I realize this is all very scientific....but even if I get the voltmeter and check my battery's output... I would like to know what happens when I've raised the heat flux by using dual coil attys. I have a 3.6V to 4.2V range to work with. Would it be better to stick with 1.8ohm dual coil and raise Volts if needed, or should I consider a lower resistance dual coil?

For now, I just want to assume my X6 battery is supposed to put out a constant voltage as chosen...either 3.6, 3.8, or 4.2....or it cuts out. I believe it's a regulated battery...but I may be misunderstanding how that works, too.

Here's what you have to know... When you take two coils of equal resistance and tie their ends together (i.e. run them in parallel) you now have a total resistance that's HALF of what it was before... Imagine a congested 4 lane highway... if you add an additional 4 lanes, now it's not so congested any more... more cars can "flow". When you put two coils in parallel, more electrons can "flow" since there is more of a "path" or more lanes for them to travel on... so there's less resistance. That's a really simplified way of thinking of it, but it works...

With that said, you have to think of it like this... If you use 30awg wire and want to wrap a single coil that's 2ohms... Let's just say 2mm inner diameter...a microcoil... That will be 8 wraps on the coil... and about 70mm of wire if you count the legs... At 10 watts it gives us a heat flux of 178mW/mm2.

Now if we use that SAME 30awg wire and want to wrap a DUAL coil that's ALSO 2ohms... Since we know as soon as we put them in parallel the resistance will be cut in half, that means we have to make 2 4ohm coils.... So... That means 17 wraps... ON EACH COIL... Now we have two 17 wrap 4ohm coils, that once put in parallel will make a dual coil of 2ohms... with 34 wraps! And that's using 281 mm of wire!!! That's a LOT more wire... And remember you're taking that same 10 watts and distributing it now over 271mm of wire instead of 70mm of wire... The result is now only 89mW/mm2 of heat flux...

The long and short of it is... dual coil needs more power to get the same heat flux... because they have more wire... But again, this can be subjective... For example...

In our first example we had a single coil of 2ohm out of 30awg wire... But what if we now made our dual coil setup, also 2ohm total (4ohms per coil) but instead used 34awg wire...That would take 7 wraps of wire per coil... 14 wraps total for both coils... Now if we run that same 10 watts into it? Our heat flux is now 358mW/mm2! Way hotter than the single coil with 30...

Why? Because 34awg wire is a LOT thinner than 30awg... So even though it's about the same amount of wraps as our first single coil, there's actually much less mass in the wire itself... which means it heats faster and hotter with the same energy.

This is the drawback to using pre-built coils... You really don't know much of anything about them... Sure they give you a resistance, which hopefully is close to what they spec, but you can't really compare one to the other because you don't know what gauge wire they are using, what inner diameter they are using for the coil, etc... All things which affect how well they will vape at a given voltage and therefore wattage....

If you truly have no interest in building, then I think your downfall right now is the X6... Because it has a limited range of adjustment... If you moved up to MVP or a similiar device where you'll have finer grain control over the voltage or wattage, I think you'll find you'll be able to stop worrying so much about the coils and start focusing on the vape!

 

[DavidOck]

Well put, ruserious. And even something like a Spinner gives finer control than the 3-step method.

And Tears, yes, a 2.2 might fit well with what you're looking for with the hardware you have. Maybe pick up a more adjustable battery (the MVP2 is a fine choice if you're comfortable with a box) and use the X6 for backup. Backups are vital to success

Flavors? Hah! We all have our own tastes. Best bet there, if available, is to go to a B&M with a flavor bar and try some. When you find the types you like - and DO try things that seem really off the wall, they may be great for your tastes! - then you can go online to find similar flavors, usually at a better price.

 

[Bored2Tears]

All great information. I appreciate the expertise of the forum members who freely give of their time to help a noob like me. My plan right now is to stick with my batteries, and try the 1.8 and 2.2 ohm coils in the PT2 and 3. If it's working, I'll use that hardware till it gives up. Come December, it'll be Christmas time, and maybe new hardware with a more adjustable battery will be in the future. And, maybe by then I'll be ready to tackle some coil building.

Most likely I will want to build coils soon...because at least I can do my own quality control that way.

My thought process on all of this has rapidly changed. I've only been vaping for a month. I was really perplexed by how deeply people got into the technology, the hardware discussions, the electricity ....it seemed crazy to me. I'm beginning to see that the ridiculous number of variables make it impossible NOT to learn about this stuff.

My experience has been: Buy stuff. Stuff fails or doesn't perform as expected......ask questions, learn more than I can absorb. Repeat.

 

[Bored2Tears]

I should add that an intelligent person would do things in reverse order of how I have been doing them. Ask questions, research, buy stuff....stuff performs as expected... success

Although I can tell that isn't how it works out for most people even when they put the steps in the right order.

 

[DavidOck]

Yep, we've all been there. If it were "one size fits all" it would be different, and the technology really is still in its infancy, so changes rapidly.

But do think about at least a second battery and charger. Things do fail, and usually at the worst possible time. If you, like most of us here, are using vaping to quit being a smoker, you don't want to have buying a pack of cigs as your only recourse.

 

[readeuler]

Most likely I will want to build coils soon...because at least I can do my own quality control that way.

My thought process on all of this has rapidly changed. I've only been vaping for a month. I was really perplexed by how deeply people got into the technology, the hardware discussions, the electricity ....it seemed crazy to me. I'm beginning to see that the ridiculous number of variables make it impossible NOT to learn about this stuff.

Quoted for truth, my friend!

I like the hobby aspect of vaping (hey, I finally have a hobby!), but it didn't take long to reach that level. I used a 510/cigalike for several months a few years ago, then recently stopped smoking again using an ego. That step to an ego made such a huge difference, I simply had to see how much of a difference rebuildables/a solid mod would make.

 

[Bored2Tears]

Back to frustrated. So I thought that the system was working OK yesterday at 1.8ohm and 3.6V......but now I'm convinced that's way too hot. That or what I have assumed is 1.8ohm and 3.6V is too hot. I have not gotten a multimeter and tested either variable. Anyway, I changed liquids and I can definitely taste that it's burned. yesterday I was vaping a cinnamon and couldn't tell if it was the flavor or what but at least I wasn't getting any flooding, and was getting plenty of vape.

The other question is: Shouldn't I need to "draw" on the drip tip to get the vape? It's almost as if the vapor is being forced out with pressure, and there are times when I put my mouth on the drip tip it's like I get a vacuum without even drawing on it. Hope that description makes sense.

So I am not getting flooding, and plenty of vape ,but it seems to be running too hot.