Thanks for the schedule, Julie. I think I should print it.
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SE, NJoy vs. FDA -- Overflow thread
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I for one appreciate suns deleting of some posts. One was a personal insult (flame) clearly against forum rules and another was a disgusting oral thing .My wife saw it and said 'thats why I don't want to advertise there ' I told her Sun will get it soon, and he (or someone else) did in minutes. That eased her mind some . Thank you Sun for your efforts on the forum in addition to the updates. I could never find the time to monitor a thread.
i'm thoroughly discusted that people have nothing better to do than bother people with what they want to do on their own. This has no ill affects on anyone and they are making a huge production out of it.
<-------- is wondering what she missed.
and wonders what kind of post could be called 'disgusting oral thing'? 
I did see one post that was deleted, but I'm not sure that if could have been called either one of those things.
I am, though, enjoying the new smilies.
But where did everyone go?
<-------- is wondering what she missed.
I did see one post that was deleted, but I'm not sure that if could have been called either one of those things.
I am, though, enjoying the new smilies.
But where did everyone go?
Where is Sun?
JustMe, I think I might know, but I'm not going to make any assumptions.
What thread is supposed to contain the complete record of the postings regarding action taken in court? The one that I thought was it ("Court Dockets") ends with a post from August 2009. A lot has happened since then.
I know it's a lot of work, but I'm hoping that that thread will be brought up to date.
While Sun is on vacation, I'll post updates to the docket on the discussion thread. I'm guessing that relevant updates will get copied by Elendil into the "Court Dockets" thread that's generally kept locked.
Yes, that is all correct.
We have reorganised this thread and split it up as follows:
1. Court updates / dockets
This is for dockets and other related updates ONLY. It will be locked and the Moderator can move that material across when posted in the Discussion thread by those who retrieve the updates.
All the old dockets and updates will be pulled out of the old 'all-in' thread and placed in here. That means there will be a single, sequential record of the legal activities, which should make research much easier.
2. Discussion
This is for all comment / legal discussion / questions etc.
The old thread had got to 640 pages and is now locked. Everything continues, as per normal, in the two new threads.
3. Discussion Overflow
We now want to keep this thread on topic, as it is an important one, and there are many others for chat. As an alternative to deleting posts that are not related to the topic, they will be moved out to a parallel board acting as an overflow. If people want they can chat in that thread as it does not contain updates or on-topic material. It's simply an alternative to moderating / deleting posts that aren't relevant.
4. The original thread
...is still there of course. It will be re-titled at some stage, to 'Original' or some such. At 640 pages and 6,000 or so posts of mixed materials it had become a little unwieldy.
So it's business as usual but reorganised for efficiency. It might be a little bumpy till things settle down, we need to get the latest updates in the right place no doubt.
.
We have reorganised this thread and split it up as follows:
1. Court updates / dockets
This is for dockets and other related updates ONLY. It will be locked and the Moderator can move that material across when posted in the Discussion thread by those who retrieve the updates.
All the old dockets and updates will be pulled out of the old 'all-in' thread and placed in here. That means there will be a single, sequential record of the legal activities, which should make research much easier.
2. Discussion
This is for all comment / legal discussion / questions etc.
The old thread had got to 640 pages and is now locked. Everything continues, as per normal, in the two new threads.
3. Discussion Overflow
We now want to keep this thread on topic, as it is an important one, and there are many others for chat. As an alternative to deleting posts that are not related to the topic, they will be moved out to a parallel board acting as an overflow. If people want they can chat in that thread as it does not contain updates or on-topic material. It's simply an alternative to moderating / deleting posts that aren't relevant.
4. The original thread
...is still there of course. It will be re-titled at some stage, to 'Original' or some such. At 640 pages and 6,000 or so posts of mixed materials it had become a little unwieldy.
So it's business as usual but reorganised for efficiency. It might be a little bumpy till things settle down, we need to get the latest updates in the right place no doubt.
.
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The docket thread is updated. I took me a while to find all the relevant posts and get them moved over--patience.............
Just a quick note on campaigning - email is a waste of time, always has been, always will be. If you value your rights you need to:
1. Get a bunch of similarly minded people and visit the appropriate person. Sit in their office if necessary, until everyone knows you're there and why you're there. And do it again next week.
2. If you can't do that, then phone them. Keep phoning them and get others to do so.
3. If you don't have a phone then mail them. Write and send mail on a regular basis. It doesn't work as well as being there or calling, but it's better than nothing.
...and 4: don't bother emailing. It takes 10 seconds of your time and is valued at the other end on the same scale. It gets filtered into the junk folder and does nothing. Nothing at all. Certainly nobody of any importance will ever see it or possibly even know about it.
If you value your freedoms, do something about it. And do more than allocating 10 seconds of your time to it; it's a wasted ten seconds in any case. If you just don't care, then by all means email. Sure, you can send email if you have done something else that has a chance of being noticed, but an email 'campaign' is a contradiction in terms - by itself it is a non-starter.
1. Get a bunch of similarly minded people and visit the appropriate person. Sit in their office if necessary, until everyone knows you're there and why you're there. And do it again next week.
2. If you can't do that, then phone them. Keep phoning them and get others to do so.
3. If you don't have a phone then mail them. Write and send mail on a regular basis. It doesn't work as well as being there or calling, but it's better than nothing.
...and 4: don't bother emailing. It takes 10 seconds of your time and is valued at the other end on the same scale. It gets filtered into the junk folder and does nothing. Nothing at all. Certainly nobody of any importance will ever see it or possibly even know about it.
If you value your freedoms, do something about it. And do more than allocating 10 seconds of your time to it; it's a wasted ten seconds in any case. If you just don't care, then by all means email. Sure, you can send email if you have done something else that has a chance of being noticed, but an email 'campaign' is a contradiction in terms - by itself it is a non-starter.
When you don't live in a state that's actually being affected, you have "limited options" and who knows if you are ever taken seriously or into account.
I appreciate you informing me that I," just don't care", "do not value my freedoms", "don't value my rights" and have "wasted my time" along with all the others that have too.
Pretty harsh coming from the ECF Website Manager.............
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Vaporer:
You might be able to work that out by the amount of emailing that has been done versus the effect it's had: none. At State level, where success was achieved, it was effected by people actually doing something. Email doesn't qualify as actually doing anything.
Email sent to the general inbox of organisations is filtered first, and then seen by the junior under-sectretary / office junior / intern. Nobody else is going to deal with bulk email of which 99% is unwanted. It's filtered and then a secretary gets to see it. The person you want to affect is aware of your email in the same terms they are of spam.
This is just a wake-up call because time is running out fast. And a simple reality check: exactly where do you think expending ten seconds of effort and zero dollars will get you? Answer: nowhere. Please be realistic - start today by putting a value on your freedoms, and asking yourself what you are personally prepared to expend in order to preserve them. Someone who cannot even be bothered to make a couple of phone calls or send some letters gets all they deserve - but I'm talking about from today onward, as you know where you stand now.
All the antis must be loving it: ecig supporters are so heavily committed that they send a few thousand emails (= spam) and do nothing much else. In contrast they put pressure on, every which way they can. It's why they are on top and you are going to get a medical inhaler @ $80 with no options. And don't complain to me, look in a mirror and ask yourself, "Did I do everything I possibly could to help?".
I had hoped it would come across as brutally harsh, not just harsh. Time to wake up, people.
I think your 'limited options' would include using the phone or writing. I tried to explain that these are much more effective.
If you don't know your options or what value to put on each form of action, then no one can accuse you of not caring or whatever. But once you know that doing something has little or no effect, it then applies. I'm sad that many people think email has some kind of effect in and of itself. It may do if in addition to physical forms of action, but emailing by itself in general is a waste of time.
You might be able to work that out by the amount of emailing that has been done versus the effect it's had: none. At State level, where success was achieved, it was effected by people actually doing something. Email doesn't qualify as actually doing anything.
Email sent to the general inbox of organisations is filtered first, and then seen by the junior under-sectretary / office junior / intern. Nobody else is going to deal with bulk email of which 99% is unwanted. It's filtered and then a secretary gets to see it. The person you want to affect is aware of your email in the same terms they are of spam.
This is just a wake-up call because time is running out fast. And a simple reality check: exactly where do you think expending ten seconds of effort and zero dollars will get you? Answer: nowhere. Please be realistic - start today by putting a value on your freedoms, and asking yourself what you are personally prepared to expend in order to preserve them. Someone who cannot even be bothered to make a couple of phone calls or send some letters gets all they deserve - but I'm talking about from today onward, as you know where you stand now.
All the antis must be loving it: ecig supporters are so heavily committed that they send a few thousand emails (= spam) and do nothing much else. In contrast they put pressure on, every which way they can. It's why they are on top and you are going to get a medical inhaler @ $80 with no options. And don't complain to me, look in a mirror and ask yourself, "Did I do everything I possibly could to help?".
I invite criticism because I like reality - cold, hard reality. Members are already starting to comment on my input here, which is good. My intention is to cause you to evaluate your previous efforts in the light of what has actually been achieved.
Because of the position I'm in I get to see many things you don't, and it is my duty to pass the gist of this information on to you. That's what I'm doing now. And things aren't looking too good at all at federal level.
The antis are extremely well organised, have a lot of funds at their disposal, and above all know how to exert pressure. We are somewhat lacking in those areas and it's beginning to show. When large ecig companies are sacking staff due to the pressures on them, instead of growing at 50% a year as they should be, it's time to take notice.
Because of the position I'm in I get to see many things you don't, and it is my duty to pass the gist of this information on to you. That's what I'm doing now. And things aren't looking too good at all at federal level.
The antis are extremely well organised, have a lot of funds at their disposal, and above all know how to exert pressure. We are somewhat lacking in those areas and it's beginning to show. When large ecig companies are sacking staff due to the pressures on them, instead of growing at 50% a year as they should be, it's time to take notice.
I assume you would agree that we, here on ECF, are the ones that are interested in doing 'something' to protect our freedoms and protect our beloved hobby of vaping.
I hope you would also agree that as a senior member of ECF you would be seen as a leader of we, the vapors.
As a member of we, the vapors, I for one am, offended my your "brutally harsh, not just harsh. Time to wake up, people." comments. I do not and will not follow a leader that thinks effective leadership is a whip and I am their whipping post.
You are right and it is important to point out the different levels of effectiveness in contacting TPTB, but do so with a "brutally harsh" baseball bat approach does nothing to motivate me to action and turns me away from your point.
Wow, I would respectfully request that you start taking your leadership role a little more seriously. Move to higher levels of inspiration and motivation that will incourage our efforts to more effective levels.
All I got from your posting in this thread is that you consider the majority of our efforts as worthless and the actions of idiots. If that is the case, then I will be ignoring any further attempts by yourself to whip us into shape. I will then follow the well thought out and productive leadership of Kristen and Vocalek.
Thanks for nothing.
I hope you would also agree that as a senior member of ECF you would be seen as a leader of we, the vapors.
As a member of we, the vapors, I for one am, offended my your "brutally harsh, not just harsh. Time to wake up, people." comments. I do not and will not follow a leader that thinks effective leadership is a whip and I am their whipping post.
You are right and it is important to point out the different levels of effectiveness in contacting TPTB, but do so with a "brutally harsh" baseball bat approach does nothing to motivate me to action and turns me away from your point.
Wow, I would respectfully request that you start taking your leadership role a little more seriously. Move to higher levels of inspiration and motivation that will incourage our efforts to more effective levels.
All I got from your posting in this thread is that you consider the majority of our efforts as worthless and the actions of idiots. If that is the case, then I will be ignoring any further attempts by yourself to whip us into shape. I will then follow the well thought out and productive leadership of Kristen and Vocalek.
Thanks for nothing.
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SLH:
My intention was specifically to raise the point the email has every little effect compared to actually doing something. If you have visited adminstrator's premises, or gone to meetings, or phoned administrators, or written to them - then you have done something and my comments do not apply to you. On the other hand if you have just spent a few seconds sending an email or two, and spent zero cash to protect your freedoms, then please accept the fact that in reality you won't have achieved much. It's just a simple fact, and if you prefer to think that sending emails is protecting your liberty - then you'll get what you deserve.
I have no idea whether this applies to you or not, and of course, cannot know - so as for being any form of attack on you, it can't qualify as that. What I'm saying is: people, wake up, time is running out. Time for you to actually do something.
You are as free as I am to post your opinion. What I post is simply my opinion (not ECF's, because ECF does not have a standpoint on these issues, it just publishes community resources and individual opinions). It's informed opinion but may of course be wrong, just as anyone's might be. You are most welcome to agree or disagree. If you think that emailing is effective, then please say so, and say why. I'm not stopping you in any way, I'm inviting contributions. It is clear to me that the antis are far more effective than us, and a debate on why that is seems useful.
Not really, I just run a website and am a vaper. No doubt I get more opportunites than most to put over my point of view - but this is about the first time I've commented on the community advocacy aspect.
I am becoming increasingly dispirited by the effect (or lack of it) the community is having at government level - or even public level for that matter - and my intention is to start a debate on the best way to actually get something done. I see things that maybe you don't, and it's not good overall. It's time to take the gloves off.
If by this you mean that your efforts have been entirely devoted to email - then you would be on the right track. I don't consider anyone's actions as those of 'idiots', whatever they do, because people no doubt do what they are advised to do.
My intention was specifically to raise the point the email has every little effect compared to actually doing something. If you have visited adminstrator's premises, or gone to meetings, or phoned administrators, or written to them - then you have done something and my comments do not apply to you. On the other hand if you have just spent a few seconds sending an email or two, and spent zero cash to protect your freedoms, then please accept the fact that in reality you won't have achieved much. It's just a simple fact, and if you prefer to think that sending emails is protecting your liberty - then you'll get what you deserve.
I have no idea whether this applies to you or not, and of course, cannot know - so as for being any form of attack on you, it can't qualify as that. What I'm saying is: people, wake up, time is running out. Time for you to actually do something.
You are as free as I am to post your opinion. What I post is simply my opinion (not ECF's, because ECF does not have a standpoint on these issues, it just publishes community resources and individual opinions). It's informed opinion but may of course be wrong, just as anyone's might be. You are most welcome to agree or disagree. If you think that emailing is effective, then please say so, and say why. I'm not stopping you in any way, I'm inviting contributions. It is clear to me that the antis are far more effective than us, and a debate on why that is seems useful.
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