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series vs parallel - mod choice

Discussion in 'VV/VW APV Discussion' started by virm, Dec 25, 2019.

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  1. virm

    virm Super Member

    Oct 27, 2019
    i thought this'd be more appropraite here, since it's about mods rather than batteries and also to avoid having to explain again and again: this doesn't concern mechs or mech-like use on reg-mods.

    basic question:

    aside from the obvious increase in possible power output, is a series set-up essentially the same as a single battery in terms of duration/capacity?

    nuances:

    i don't go above 60w willingly (some coils and liquids force me to but once i'm out of them i wouldn't). and i am about to make the shift to rta.

    otherwise i do have a 21700 single battery mod and the only thing stopping me from picking up the swag ii is__ that it's an 18650! i have tried a single 18650, and it's fine for mtl-ing, but dl-ing is, for me, by definition, a chain-vaping affair_ so 18650 doesn't make much sense.

    though not fired yet, i recently got the vaporesso gen, because of the stellar review and because i assumed: two batteries, more life. in other words, i have no interest in it's +100w potentials.

    this is before i'd read up on battery set-ups, which explained the different results of parallel and series.

    if i understand correctly, if the reason for adding batteries is capacity, rather than output, a series circuit is a sixth wheel in the trunk of a stranger's car in a locked garage on the other side of town.

    sell the gen?
     
  2. Eskie

    Eskie ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 6, 2016
    NY
    You will get a longer run time out of a dual vs. single battery mod for a given power setting, as the current draw is across the two batteries. You should get a day out of a dual battery mod at 60W assuming you don’t vape 30 ml a day.
     
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  3. virm

    virm Super Member

    Oct 27, 2019
    thank you for the quick one!

    erm... i could _ maybe _ i've done 20mls a couple time... :blush:

    so this
    "The combined voltage of the two vape batteries in this configuration is the sum of the individual batteries. This basically means you’re increasing the voltage of your battery supply when using batteries in series.
    "However, the current (mAh) and Continuous Discharge Rate (CDR) is that of the single battery."

    from
    Series and Parallel Vape Batteries | Do I Need to Pair my Vape Batteries?

    is wrong? or i am undertanding wrong and he/she are referring to a mech setup?
     
  4. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 19, 2018
    All multi battery regulated mods are wired in series. The circuitry manages the voltage in order to deliver the wattage you've asked it for at the resistance of the wire it sees assuming the battery/ies can supply the required amperage.

    Any discussion of the pros and cons of parallel vs. series battery configurations is applicable to mechanical devices only.

    That doesn't mean that there aren't things to consider when choosing a mod and batteries for how you like to vape, only that all regulated devices are either single battery or series. All that I know of anyway.
     
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  5. virm

    virm Super Member

    Oct 27, 2019
    thanks for info. duely noted. and in this case the question would become, if the quote i added above is right, contra @Eskie , why should someone not interested in going over the wattage provided by a single battery, but rather only in longer lasting charge, go for a dual battery.

    of course, with @Eskie 's reassurance and the agreement by other veterans, i'll keep the mod. and only ask, whether then the simple math of 'it's two batteries, it'll last twice as long' stands?
     
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  6. jandrew

    jandrew Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 2, 2013
    Winnipeg
    Most, but not all --- dual battery DNA75 mods, for example, are parallel.
     
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  7. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 19, 2018
    Fair enough, but that is the vast exception.
     
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  8. Eskie

    Eskie ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 6, 2016
    NY
    Well, I went back to the article you linked to (yeah, I should have done that first, but whatever) and the discussion was of unregulated mods, or mechs (maybe some safety features thrown in line which makes it unregulated and technically not a mech, but otherwise they behave the same) so it's not directly applicable to a regulated mod. But even there, the wording is a little funky, which can be misleading.

    The draw in a multi-battery regulated mod is spread across the cells in the circuit. While it's not 100% efficient (adding up the mAh to reach a total isn't exactly how it will work in real life) you will get more total "capacity" with multiple batteries in the mod.
     
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  9. sonicbomb

    sonicbomb Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 17, 2015
    1187 Hundertwasser
    Series – Batteries are configured ‘end to end’ electrically. This doubles the available voltage, mAh and amp capacity remain the same.
    Parallel – Batteries in a parallel configuration will have the combined amp limits and the combined mAh capacity of both batteries, but the voltage of only one.

    In a regulated mod the configuration is not relevant to the user as the batteries are separated from the atomizer/coils by the regulator chip. The chip makes a calculation based on the resistance of the coil, then supplies the appropriate mix of volts and amps from the batteries to provide the selected wattage to the coils on the atomizer side. On the battery side, the chip will draw an increasing number of amps as the voltage in the battery falls until it deems their is not enough voltage left to continue.
    This is why when choosing batteries for a regulated mod, the maximum amp draw at the battery cut off voltage needs to be known as this dictates the maximum amp draw and therefore the appropriate CDR of the battery.
    Regulated mods almost always use a series configuration as this provides a larger pool of voltage, lessening the possibility that the chip will have to 'step up' the voltage as this is inefficient.

    In an unregulated device the larger voltage pool offered by series configuration is useful because it is possible to use higher resistance coils to achieve the same wattage levels. Higher volts and lower amps means less voltage drop in the battery and less voltage drop within the mod.

    Bottom line
    Two batteries contain a certain amount of watt hours. This will give you the same amount of runtime at a given wattage level regardless of whether it is in parallel or series configuration. Though in the real world in both regulated and unregulated devices, series will be the more efficient of the two.

    Ohms/Watts Law - Calculating safe amp usage | E-Cigarette Forum
    Understanding Battery Capability/Capacity | E-Cigarette Forum
    Understanding the relationship between power and coil resistance | E-Cigarette Forum
     
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  10. sonicbomb

    sonicbomb Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 17, 2015
    1187 Hundertwasser
    Choosing a two battery mod may be done for two main reasons.

    1. The required user wattage dictates the need for two batteries, as it may exceed the capabilities of only one.

    2. The user requires longer run times than one battery can provide.

    Pushing a single battery too hard will will decrease its usable life span, and in the extreme can be unsafe.
     
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  11. virm

    virm Super Member

    Oct 27, 2019
    @sonicbomb thanks for joining. pardon the face-level digestion: how are the these two sttmnts not contradictory?

    also thank you for the references and forsooth for the references (the referring to them and the composing of them, respectively) :D

    it has indeed occurred to me that having the resistance does not determine the wattage to be selected, and one should rather have either directly the voltage a wire can take/reaches the ideal heat at, or indirectly, as in the case of stock coils, where the appropraite wattage (or temperature(?)) is provided.

    so while we have you here, let me ask add another question
    hwo does a rta-user to be, like myself, decide on a coil-resistance [let's jut assume prebuilt, where you can read the 'ohmage' yourself or go by description when it's there] or decide on the appropriate wattage [forgeting temp.control for these purposes].
    (naturally the normal plan is start low and and experiment, but is there a way to actually know beforehand the appropriate power range for a coil?)
     
  12. sonicbomb

    sonicbomb Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 17, 2015
    1187 Hundertwasser
    This is why the two statements are not contradictory
    Two batteries are two batteries regardless of whether you pull more amps or volts from them. They both contain a certain amount of electrical energy that equates to x wattage for x time.

    Choosing a wattage range for a coil given coil - with experience you can make a pretty good guess. But at the end of the day it's down to personal preference and experimentation. Starting low and increasing to taste and airflow adjustment is the way to go.

    Efficiency is a good goal because everyone wants more run time. The rule of thumb for coils to achieve this is maximum surface area with minimum mass.

    If you have two lengths of wire with one twice the thickness of the other, the thicker wire will have twice the surface area but four times the mass. Once you understand this it's easy to see that coils made from lots of wraps of thin wire will be exponentially more efficient.
    This equates to either less power used for the same vapor production, or the same power for more vapor production.
    Understanding the relationship between power and coil resistance | E-Cigarette Forum
     
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  13. virm

    virm Super Member

    Oct 27, 2019
    ok so for q1, keep the dual mod and it'll give significantly more time than a single 18650, and fairly better than a single 21700>?

    for q2, got the jist, but i am asking about guessing where the entire general range of allowed power might be:

    with stocks you get a .2 ohm from X brand recommended for 40-50 and by another Y with the same resistance and the same material for 70-80, and indeed if you use 80 on the former you're likely to overheat, burning the wick, if not damaging the coil. sure there's variables of form, size, coil-head etc., but it is the same resistance.

    now with rba's, i get there's wraps and mass in addition to material, but a .2ohm can be achieved by widely differing builds (wraps and mass) using the same material, say a juggernaut and a single wrap of some gauge. now i've of course come across reviews saying (usually of the complex stuff) this takes forever to heat up or this gets really too hot or this requires so much power to vape...

    if i go by this correlation to complexity alone, all you arrive is the more complex the more power the coil needs. but at the same time it is the simpler stuff, with lower resistance that people use for really high wattage, and i am not sure if this is because this is what the coil needs or what the coil can do.

    here's an example of where i get confused
    https://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10044090/9450400-authentic-coil-master-skynet-pre-coiled
    where a
    (Ni) Fused Clapton / Clapton Parallel / Interlock Clapton , are all .3ohm
    (A1) Fused Clapton(TWIST) / Flat Clapton are both .45
    Ni80+A1 Super Tiger / Ni80 Tortuosity are both .22

    sure, this is because of different masses, material, form(?) etc. but am i to understand from the resistances that all these have/require the same wattage range to reach the heat required to vaporize liquid?

    i think there's two questions in there that i somehow can't flesh out... but essentially the problem is how can i tell if a coil [if i was wrapping my own, this would be wire..] is meant for a 50watt range or the 150w world?
     
  14. lupinehorror

    lupinehorror bròn Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jul 11, 2017
    Dunblane
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  15. Eskie

    Eskie ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 6, 2016
    NY
    What rta are you planning to buy, and to clarify, this is your first time building, right?
     
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  16. virm

    virm Super Member

    Oct 27, 2019
    waiting on the wotofo elevate
    indeed, the first, and naturally planning to buy pre-coiled.

    @lupinehorror. thanks. i've fooled around on a couple of calculator before, answered a question for myself rather than give y'all a headache [it was what does the total resistance of two coils_ because i got the impression that the coils below were specified for the total resistance rather than the resistance of each and i wanted to order them for aforementioned tank, so had to know the signle's resistance]
    https://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10050486/9654716-authentic-coilology-kanthal-a1-alien-pre-coiled
     
  17. sonicbomb

    sonicbomb Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 17, 2015
    1187 Hundertwasser
    ok so for q1, keep the dual mod and it'll give significantly more time than a single 18650, and fairly better than a single 21700>?

    Yes

    for q2, got the jist, but i am asking about guessing where the entire general range of allowed power might be:

    with stocks you get a .2 ohm from X brand recommended for 40-50 and by another Y with the same resistance and the same material for 70-80, and indeed if you use 80 on the former you're likely to overheat, burning the wick, if not damaging the coil. sure there's variables of form, size, coil-head etc., but it is the same resistance.
    now with rba's, i get there's wraps and mass in addition to material, but a .2ohm can be achieved by widely differing builds (wraps and mass) using the same material, say a juggernaut and a single wrap of some gauge. now i've of course come across reviews saying (usually of the complex stuff) this takes forever to heat up or this gets really too hot or this requires so much power to vape...

    if i go by this correlation to complexity alone, all you arrive is the more complex the more power the coil needs. but at the same time it is the simpler stuff, with lower resistance that people use for really high wattage, and i am not sure if this is because this is what the coil needs or what the coil can do.


    In a word,variables.
    Some people like a hot vape some don't. Apart variables of preference, technically each user will wick differently, will position the coil differently, will draw on the atomizer differently and a rainbow of other variables. The bottom line is that you need to experiment and find what makes your mouthhole happy. A given coil will have a large range of usable power levels.
    I suspect that you are over thinking this, just start vaping some coils in different setups and your mouth will tell you what works and what doesn't.


    here's an example of where i get confused
    https://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10044090/9450400-authentic-coil-master-skynet-pre-coiled
    where a
    (Ni) Fused Clapton / Clapton Parallel / Interlock Clapton , are all .3ohm
    (A1) Fused Clapton(TWIST) / Flat Clapton are both .45
    Ni80+A1 Super Tiger / Ni80 Tortuosity are both .22

    sure, this is because of different masses, material, form(?) etc. but am i to understand from the resistances that all these have/require the same wattage range to reach the heat required to vaporize liquid?
    You need to read the material I posted above again, on a regulated device resistance is not important. Mass and surface area are.
    I'm not a big fan of fancy complex coils. They do increase surface area but, (in my opinion) require an increase in power that is disproportionate to the increase in performance.


    i think there's two questions in there that i somehow can't flesh out... but essentially the problem is how can i tell if a coil [if i was wrapping my own, this would be wire..] is meant for a 50watt range or the 150w world?

    I'll go out of a limb here.
    Build dual coils, 9 wraps of 26 guage kanthal with a 2.5mm internal diameter.
    I know from experience this will happily handle from 50 watts to 150 watts and everything in between.
    However the general performance will depend largely on the atomizer you use, how good your wicking and airflow control is. And ultimately what you like from a vape. This applies specifically when going north of 100 watts.

    Just start building and vaping different and you should quickly be able to work out what you do and don't like.
     
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  18. virm

    virm Super Member

    Oct 27, 2019
    thanks for the answers and indulgence.

    as to the overthinking, i've ordered eveything a few days ago already and it's on the way:

    Wotofo Prebuilt Coils - 10pcs - Quad Core Fused Clapton 0.26 ohm
    Wotofo Xfiber Cotton (3mm Thick) - 3mm-30 pcs
    Wotofo Serpent Elevate RTA

    several members agreed i should start with this and may well be happy staying with the tank. (aside from a couple of brief attempts with starter kits before__ i've order a rta less than six months from quitting 'logs with a justfog minifit. i think that's an o.k. pace, no?)

    but realizing that, with the included coils, i have two coil options of the same material and might do well to order a couple more options or a sampler set. had my eyes on these, before i realized the resistance on the box might refer to dual use rather than sinlge use for Elevate
    https://www.fasttech.com/products/9655517
    https://www.fasttech.com/products/9654500

    figured out that if the reference is actually to dual use, each coil would have double the resistance alone.

    also thought i might learn ahead, so read a bit and when you linked your blog i thought i might ask about a core issue i have yet to understand. i mean, the experimentation is going to happen soon anyway, might as well have some idea, however removed from first-hand experience it might be.

    i know, for instance, that i like a mildly warm vape, like the first Cleito tank or Nunchaku2, both with .2ohm kanthal coils and in the 50ish range. i know that the testing setup at the former shop in town was too warm for me (i know the mod was AV Druga, not sure about the tank.. if the mod has a kit probably that...).

    thought some knowledge as to how to figure out what wattage a coil requires is a starting point_ that's not a lot of details right? not like asking how hot a coil would get at X, Y and Z wattages, i mean.

    shall i simply copy the coil specs into the calculator and play?

    p.s. thanks again for the answers to the original battery question everyone! i'll be finally ordering the cells for the Vprs gen, it's been lying there all pretty but frustrated for a week or two.
     
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  19. Eskie

    Eskie ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 6, 2016
    NY
    If you use Steam Engine, the calculator will display the heat flux of the coil build you enter. As you adjust power, you'll see how the heat flux changes. It's a helpful estimate of how hot a given build will be at a given power selection.

    Honestly, before using all these fancy coils, get yourself a spool of some 28 or 26G Kanthal or Ni80. Make some simple round coil builds. Vape them. See what you like and dislike. That way you have some framework to judge how all those fancy builds behave. Right now you're building with no real expectation for performance of an fused Clapton, Alien, Juggernaut, or Tortuosity (which I've never even heard of).

    Premade come labelled with the resistance of one coil. If you use 2 coils in parallel the combined resistance with be halved. In series, doubled (not something you'll be able to do on the elevate, but there are attys out there that offer that option for specific use). ALWAYS check the resistance yourself. Never trust the label. They can be, and frequently are, wrong.
     
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  20. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 19, 2018
    I agree. It's much easier to learn how wire behaves if you start with simple builds. Simple builds don't suck either. They vape just fine.
     

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