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Should we be concerned about this?

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manc2000

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eliquid, however, is a different story. It's main ingredients have already been in markets for decades (PG, VG, flavoring). When the FDA ran tests on eliquids - both Chinese and US based - they failed to find anything dangerous (and subsequently got their butts kicked in court).

At the moment - the majority of nicotine liquid as a raw material is produced in India and sold to manufacturers around the world - for all nicotine uses - eliquid being just one. I've heard that nic liquid is also created in the US though and I think it's fair to assume that pharma companies also derive nicotine locally.

I find it interesting that the majority of nicotine liquid as a raw material is produced in India. By the very fact that we are vaping, we are accepting and trusting the source of our nicotine including VG and PG whether it originates in China or India. I am somewhat concerned about the flavors we are using. Yesterday I spent a good number of hours online researching Chinese imports, and it confirmed my belief that EVERYTHING COMES FROM CHINA. and I am sure that we must be saving hundreds, possibly thousands of dollars each year since Chinese products are so cheap. (for whatever reason). The "Donald" was doing a lot of shouting about putting a 25% levy on Chinese imports and a few politicians agreed with him, though the majority think he is crazy (including me). A levy would probably put a few people back to work, but our cost of living would increase by 25% since the levy would probably be passed on to consumers. The question I have is ARE THE FLAVORS WE ARE USING FOR VAPING MADE IN CHINA and if they are, then should we be concerned? Since we obviously trust our source of nicotine, do we need to question our source of flavors? and where does Lorann and Perfumers Apprentice purchase their bulk flavors? We have to remember that the FDA are ridiculously undermanned and cannot possibly inspect all food imports.
BTW A quick google search tells me that just about all citric acid and antibiotics are made in China or India, and that alone is mind boggling.
 

kanadiankat

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I find it interesting that the majority of nicotine liquid as a raw material is produced in India. By the very fact that we are vaping, we are accepting and trusting the source of our nicotine including VG and PG whether it originates in China or India. I am somewhat concerned about the flavors we are using. Yesterday I spent a good number of hours online researching Chinese imports, and it confirmed my belief that EVERYTHING COMES FROM CHINA. and I am sure that we must be saving hundreds, possibly thousands of dollars each year since Chinese products are so cheap. (for whatever reason). The "Donald" was doing a lot of shouting about putting a 25% levy on Chinese imports and a few politicians agreed with him, though the majority think he is crazy (including me). A levy would probably put a few people back to work, but our cost of living would increase by 25% since the levy would probably be passed on to consumers. The question I have is ARE THE FLAVORS WE ARE USING FOR VAPING MADE IN CHINA and if they are, then should we be concerned? Since we obviously trust our source of nicotine, do we need to question our source of flavors? and where does Lorann and Perfumers Apprentice purchase their bulk flavors? We have to remember that the FDA are ridiculously undermanned and cannot possibly inspect all food imports.
BTW A quick google search tells me that just about all citric acid and antibiotics are made in China or India, and that alone is mind boggling.

It's believable that every processed food has some ingredient that was produced in China. We all eat the stuff - and we're all still alive. And most of us have only one head and live to a ripe old age...

China - as a nation - definitely needs to come up with better internal quality control systems, because so much of the problems with poisons and bad product are completely preventable. BUT - there is quality coming out of that country - every single day. We just don't hear about it. "Good batch of citric acid for jams produced this month in China" doesn't rate international headlines - but it does happen all the time. :2cool:
 

Chime

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Could be just problem by quantity too. I mean maybe the poison thing statistically happens in %X of operations or the exploding fruit happens in %y of melons. China has like 20% of the population of the world, no other "developed" nation has near that. Simple math tells us that if somethings wrong with a process or product your first indicator will be where most of it is.

I'm not saying qc slipups are completely excusable and safety controls shouldn't be in place. Because they aren't and they should.

But I think it would really do us a lot of good to be rational about things rather than using our typical cultural stigmas like "chinese goods are cheap knockoffs" or "americans are pushy ignorant blowhards" to write things off. I think we can give companies little more credit than that, after all without a customer they don't exist.
 

manc2000

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The labeling of food products also bothers me because we never really know where the product originated. I recently read that broilers grown in usa were sent to China for processing and then returned to usa. BTW my wife just returned from the grocery store with our weekly supply. She told me she purchased a 2lb bag of frozen Alaska Pollock. She knows I enjoy fish and she thought I should try it. I jokingly asked her to check the label to see if it was a product of China..............and sure enough it was. I couldn't believe it. It was purchased at Price Chopper and had the brand name is Signal.
 

manc2000

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This is from the NY Times. It's from 2007 but you can see why we need to be concerned.


WASHINGTON — In China, some farmers try to maximize the output from their small plots by flooding produce with unapproved pesticides, pumping livestock with antibiotics banned in other countries and using human feces as fertilizer to increase soil productivity.

But the questionable practices do not end there: Chicken pens are frequently suspended over ponds where seafood is raised, recycling chicken waste as a food source for seafood, according to a leading food safety expert who served as adviser to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

Suspect Chinese agricultural practices could soon affect consumers in the United States. Government authorities are working on a proposal to allow chickens raised, slaughtered, and cooked in China to be sold in the United States, and under current regulations, store labels do not have to indicate the origin of the poultry.

According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, China's top agricultural export goal is opening the U.S. market to its cooked chickens.

Representative Rosa DeLauro, a Democrat of Connecticut who is fighting the change, says that China does not deserve entry to the coveted, closed poultry market.

Agricultural exports from China to the United States ballooned from $1 billion in 2002 to nearly $2.3 billion in 2006, according to the USDA Economic Research Service. DeLauro, head of an agricultural subcommittee in the House of Representatives, said Congress should signal its willingness to restrict imports from China until Beijing improved food safety oversight.

"There is deception," DeLauro said. "There is lax regulation, and they've got unsanitary conditions. They need to hear from us they're at risk. Congress has to look at limiting some of their agricultural imports."

The USDA, which shares food safety oversight with the FDA, says that its proposal to allow the sale of Chinese chicken is in the early stages and that there will be many opportunities for the public to be heard on the matter. Under the plan, any country seeking to export meat, poultry, or egg products to the United States must earn "equivalency," with documentation that its product is as safe and wholesome as the domestic competition.

Agriculture officials would review records, conduct on-site audits, and confirm that foreign laboratories could ensure the safety of the food, said Steven Cohen, a spokesman for the department's Food Safety and Inspection Service. The agency would also inspect imported products as they enter the United States, he said. "This is a process that has barely begun, and there is a very lengthy review," Cohen said.

According to Lucius Adkins, president of United Poultry Growers Association, the idea "should be strangled in infancy." The group represents more than 700 producers in Georgia, one of the leading U.S. poultry producing states.

"You don't know what conditions existed in that plant" in China, he said. In addition, no U.S. government representative in China would be watching poultry being slaughtered and processed, he said. "It's going to come here packaged."

The National Chicken Council, which represents companies that produce 95 percent of U.S.-grown poultry, has not taken a position on the proposal.

Currently, the United States imports almost no poultry, except for a small amount of chicken exported by Canadian producers, said Richard Lobb, a spokesman for the trade association.

But Americans do eat food from around the world, Lobb said.

"People don't have any problem with potpie from Canada. How they would feel about frozen chicken from China or specialty Chinese products that are canned or dried or something, I don't know."

In China's agricultural system, many farmers toil on one-acre plots, while U.S. farmers often work thousands of acres, said Michael Doyle, director of the Center for Food Safety at the University of Georgia and former chairman of the FDA's science advisory board.

In China, "there are hundreds of thousands of these little farms," Doyle said. "They have small ponds. And over the ponds - in not all cases, but in many cases - they'll have chicken cages. It might be like 20,000 chickens in cages. The chicken feces is what feeds the shrimp."

The U.S. Department of Agriculture has found that up to 10 percent of shrimp imported from China contains salmonella, he said. Even more worrisome are shrimp imported from China that contain antibiotics that no amount of cooking can neutralize.

Last month alone, the FDA rejected 51 shipments of catfish, eel, shrimp, and tilapia imported from China because of contaminants like salmonella, veterinary drugs, and nitrofuran, a cancer-causing chemical. A long history of such test results spurred the FDA to begin working proactively with Chinese farmers on safer seafood production methods, Doyle said. Even in poultry produced in the United States, there is contamination with salmonella, he said.

"In terms of veterinary drugs and pesticides, well, good food handling practices won't fix that," Doyle added. "That has to be addressed in the country of origin."
 

manc2000

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I think I'll settle for a hamburger to-night. LOL. Oh wait a minute don't they use Chinese antibiotics to keep the beef healthy and for faster growth? I guess we just can't get away from it. In the late 70s and into the 80s I managed a chicken farm north of Toronto. We were shipping out 50,0000 chickens every 6 weeks. Arsenic was used in the feed to promote growth, which it did. It took only 6 weeks to produce a 4.5 lb chicken. Nowadays I'm not sure if they still use arsenic in the feed but I know that they use antibiotics.
 

manc2000

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Arsenic is still being used. I'll give the subject a rest after this one.

A study released yesterday found over 25 percent of apple juice boxes tested contained concerning levels of arsenic, a heavy metal known to cause various types of cancer.

Florida's St. Petersburg Times commissioned an independent lab to test several nationally-recognized brands--Motts, Apple & Eve Organics, Walmart's Great Value, Nestle's Juicy Juice, Minute Maid, Tree Top, Target's Market Pantry--as well as a Tampa Bay company that supplies schools in the area. The Times reported Monday that samples from three brands--Motts, Apple & Eve Organics, and Walmart's Great Value label--were found to have arsenic levels above the U.S. Food and Drug Administration's (FDA's) level of concern.

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has an established limit for arsenic in drinking water: 10 parts per billion (ppb), the same standard set by the World Health Organization. The FDA does not have a similar limit for fruit juice, but, according to the Times, the agency told fruit juice companies that arsenic levels over 23 parts per billion (ppb) would be at a "level of concern."

How does arsenic get into apple juice?

Because arsenic is found in soil and ground water, there is bound to be trace levels of it in most food and beverage products, but not all of that arsenic is naturally occurring. Arsenic-based herbicides were commonly used in U.S. agricultural production until 1970, when more effective chemicals became available (though the chemical is still used in domestic chicken feed as a growth enhancer).

According to Charles Benbrook, a leading scientist at the Organic Center in Oregon, arsenic-based chemicals are still being used on many apple orchards abroad, and past chemical use on the fields can cause arsenic contamination.

"If the orchard was planted on a field that was treated six or eight or 10 times over the last 30 years, it would build up to a high level," explained Benbrook.

Over 60 percent of apple juice, made from concentrate, consumed in the U.S. is made from apples grown in China and much of the rest is made from apples grown in Chile, Argentina, and Turkey, according to the Times.

Several leading arsenic scientists believe additional precautions should be taken to minimize arsenic levels in juice, which is widely consumed by young children especially vulnerable to exposure.

Arsenic (Roxarsone) is not only used in poultry feed, it is also used in pig feed in the US and Canada. It is banned in the EU. Time to ban it in Canada and the US!
 

jlarsen

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I think I'll settle for a hamburger to-night. LOL. Oh wait a minute don't they use Chinese antibiotics to keep the beef healthy and for faster growth? I guess we just can't get away from it. In the late 70s and into the 80s I managed a chicken farm north of Toronto. We were shipping out 50,0000 chickens every 6 weeks. Arsenic was used in the feed to promote growth, which it did. It took only 6 weeks to produce a 4.5 lb chicken. Nowadays I'm not sure if they still use arsenic in the feed but I know that they use antibiotics.

There is a difference between using antibiotics made in China, on farm animals in the U.S., and buying Chinese poultry and meat on which unapproved or banned antibiotics have been used. Of course, unless we test the antibiotics we get from them, we can't know for sure we're getting what we're supposed to be getting, and not the unapproved/banned ones.
 

fcitrolo

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The sad thing is in North America we are constantly being poisoned when ingesting life's necessities (unless you are buying organic) everything is genetically modified. (gmo)

In Europe there are no gmo foods or crops.

Even our water supply in North America has Fluoride, another poison we are ingesting daily which was used during WWII in German concentration camps to calm and make POW's docile.

The argument is fluoride is good for your teeth. Maybe on the top of your teeth? But how does it help if you ingest it? My toothpaste is fluoride free. My water is fluoride free (Big Berkey with Arsenic filters)

Which is why I find it hilarious when HC and FDA say ecigs are harmful.
 

jlarsen

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The sad thing is in North America we are constantly being poisoned when ingesting life's necessities (unless you are buying organic) everything is genetically modified. (gmo)

In Europe there are no gmo foods or crops.

Even our water supply in North America has Fluoride, another poison we are ingesting daily which was used during WWII in German concentration camps to calm and make POW's docile.

The argument is fluoride is good for your teeth. Maybe on the top of your teeth? But how does it help if you ingest it? My toothpaste is fluoride free. My water is fluoride free (Big Berkey with Arsenic filters)

Which is why I find it hilarious when HC and FDA say ecigs are harmful.

I don't think GMO foods are as common as you think they are, not to say that we aren't buying them, and maybe more than many of us think. Personally I'm not as concerned about GMO as pesticides and herbicides, and I find very little reason to be worried about chemical fertilizers. The best way to deal with pesticides and herbicides is to wash produce before using it, but it would be best if pesticide and herbicide use was minimized.

Fluoride is sometimes found NATURALLY in groundwater, and where it is, there is lower instance of tooth decay. In very small amounts, ingested fluoride does help with strengthening teeth, but I don't recommend fluoridating water. I do use fluoridated tooth paste, even when I used to use Tom's of Maine, I got the fluoride version.
 

fcitrolo

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I don't think GMO foods are as common as you think they are, not to say that we aren't buying them, and maybe more than many of us think. Personally I'm not as concerned about GMO as pesticides and herbicides, and I find very little reason to be worried about chemical fertilizers. The best way to deal with pesticides and herbicides is to wash produce before using it, but it would be best if pesticide and herbicide use was minimized.

Fluoride is sometimes found NATURALLY in groundwater, and where it is, there is lower instance of tooth decay. In very small amounts, ingested fluoride does help with strengthening teeth, but I don't recommend fluoridating water. I do use fluoridated tooth paste, even when I used to use Tom's of Maine, I got the fluoride version.

I have to disagree with you.

If you eat corn you're eatting GMO, all corn in North America is GMO.

Those giant sized grapes GMO, those giant sized strawberries GMO, I could go on and on...but I won't.

As for the fluoride please don't confuse the natural calcium fluoride found in some natural spring waters with sodium fluoride which is toxic waste and is being put in our tap water.

The fluoride in toothpaste is also sodium fluoride.

I use baking soda as my toothpaste (a natural whitener too.)
 

jlarsen

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As for the fluoride please don't confuse the natural calcium fluoride found in some natural spring waters with sodium fluoride which is toxic waste and is being put in our tap water.

The fluoride in toothpaste is also sodium fluoride.

I use baking soda as my toothpaste (a natural whitener too.)

I'm not sure calcium fluoride found in water is any less toxic than sodium fluoride. The reason calcium fluoride is considered less toxic, is because it is has a much lower solubility, but if it is found in water than some of it is getting dissolved.
 

fcitrolo

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I'm not sure calcium fluoride found in water is any less toxic than sodium fluoride. The reason calcium fluoride is considered less toxic, is because it is has a much lower solubility, but if it is found in water than some of it is getting dissolved.

Calcium Fluoride = can be found in natural spring water
Sodium Fluoride = is added to city tap water

There are four kinds of fluoride reported to exist in drinking water; they are calcium fluoride, sodium fluoride, sodium silico fluoride, and fluosilicic acid. Calcium fluoride comes from floor spar and is naturally occurring in water. The other three compounds come from a very different source, rock phosphate. Rock phosphate was used during the Cold War period for the extraction of uranium to make bombs.

Fluoride is toxic and it does not belong in our drinking water.

City of Kitchener/Waterloo, Ontario had a referendum in October 2010 and voted to stop the fluoridation of city tap water.

Calgary, Alberta city council voted in February 2011 to stop the fluoridation of tap water.

There is currently a movement in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan to stop the fluoridation of tap water.

Canadians are waking up and I am only trying to wake up more!

Fluoride is toxic, spread the word.
 

jlarsen

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Calcium Fluoride = can be found in natural spring water
Sodium Fluoride = is added to city tap water

There are four kinds of fluoride reported to exist in drinking water; they are calcium fluoride, sodium fluoride, sodium silico fluoride, and fluosilicic acid. Calcium fluoride comes from floor spar and is naturally occurring in water. The other three compounds come from a very different source, rock phosphate. Rock phosphate was used during the Cold War period for the extraction of uranium to make bombs.

Fluoride is toxic and it does not belong in our drinking water.

City of Kitchener/Waterloo, Ontario had a referendum in October 2010 and voted to stop the fluoridation of city tap water.

Calgary, Alberta city council voted in February 2011 to stop the fluoridation of tap water.

There is currently a movement in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan to stop the fluoridation of tap water.

Canadians are waking up and I am only trying to wake up more!

Fluoride is toxic, spread the word.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, "sound the alarm, fluoride is poison, we're all going to die". YAWN. The way you talk about it, you make it sound like the anti fluoridation movement is relatively new.

The first town meeting where I was in attendance while arguments were made for or against fluoride was 25 years ago. I was 9 years old. My mom was the main person speaking out about the fluoride. When she heard that the town was considering adding fluoride to the water, she broke out an old dictionary and encyclopedia set, looked up fluoride/sodium fluoride, saw the word fluorine, looked up the word fluorine, and freaked out when she saw how toxic pure fluorine is. I didn't believe the anti-fluoride hype then, I don't believe it now.

At 9 years old I knew it wasn't as simple as how toxic one chemical of a molecular compound was. Table salt is sodium chloride, chlorine is also deadly toxic. NaCl is not. At nine years old, I knew that. I know that is also an oversimplification, and you seem to know a lot more about the different forms of fluoride than my mom did.

But, 25 years and a four year degree later, I still don't believe the conspiracy theory. I do think that fluoridated water itself is also overhyped, and unnecessary, especially the nursery water that was sold on store shelves in gallon jugs and was eventually pulled off the market. That sort of overuse is what leads to dental fluorosis, and dentists no longer recommend the use of fluoridated water in infants (my wife works in a dental office). Even the FDA went head to head against the nursery water companies about their claims and whether fluoridated water for children four and under was necessary.

It sounds like Canada is a bit behind the U.S. on the curve of spreading the anti fluoride conspiracy theory. It started with the movie Dr. Strangelove in 1964 as it was one of the conspiracy theories talked about by one of the characters in the movie.

Fluoride does strengthen teeth, that is scientifically proven. I don't remember the specifics, but my college professor in basic chemistry explained how it works.

Is fluoride 100% safe? No. Is it toxic? Yes. Toxicity is relative. Too much fluoride causes dental and skeletal fluorosis, and has an LD50 of 52-200 mg/kg. If a young child eats half a tube of toothpaste in one sitting, there is a 50% chance they would die. If you or I ate a full tube, there's a chance we might die too.

In addition to fluoride in the water, we used to swish and spit a fluoride rinse in school every Thursday, and I use fluoride toothpaste. I'm fine. No fluorosis, no other ill effects that I'm aware of. I do have 32 teeth, at age 34, that includes all of my wisdom teeth.

Like I said, I don't really recommend ingesting it, but would recommend it topically. Even small amounts ingested are relatively safe, and would have similar beneficial effects to teeth and bones. But with ingestion is additional risk of fluorosis, and ingestion just isn't necessary when topical application works. Unless you ingest too much at once, or too much over a long period of time, I wouldn't worry about it.

They've been adding fluoride to the water for what, about 50 years or longer? Other than fluorosis, mostly dental fluorosis in very young children that get too much, and occasional skeletal fluorosis in adults who take osteoporosis medications that contain fluoride, I'm not aware of any fluoride related epidemics or serious health problems in our society.
 

sparky604

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Excellent post jlarson, we are getting so much .... thrown at us all from the Chinese it is crazy and more comes in everyday, they are also throwing so many new ecig products at us along with there juice one must be extra careful these days and many don't even think about this, people need to open up there eyes and be a little bit more careful on exactly the products there using

It doesn't make any sense to denounce an entire country's products based on the actions of some of their citizens/companies. I can't personally vouch for the ingredients of _any_ juice as I haven't seen it made in front of me, and have no degree in chemistry, etc. I'm not Chinese, and I don't have any vested interest in Chinese juice per se, but the whole "yep them thar Chinese put out filthy shoddy products, you just can't trust 'em" attitude is not going to display e-cigarettes and vaping in general in a good light.

Not specifically directed at you, mwa - just have seen a lot of this on the forums lately. Assuming something is inherently of better quality because its country of origin is _not_ China is somewhat racist, IMO. There are shady people on this side of the Pacific as well, and veterinary grade (or industrial refrigerant grade, for heavens sake) non-USP PG is available, and cheap... $19 for a gallon of the stuff on eBay. Propylene Glycol Gallon | eBay Would I use it? Heck no. Am I able to tell if this particular non-USP PG has been used in a USA-manufactured (or China-manufactured, for that matter) e-liquid I've been sold? Also heck no.
 
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