Newish Vaper - Concerned about diacetyl

[SmokinRabbit]

I know I'm not alone in this. I've been reading several of the threads that already exist (in the DIY area) and there doesn't seem to be a real answer to this question. If there is, please do point me there...

I did read the latest news about the study, and also Dr. Farsalinos' comment that said: "Many liquids with diacetyl came from vendors who specifically and clearly mentioned in their websites that all products are diacetyl-free. Thus, only proper testing and presentation of the testing report will ensure that these products are indeed free from these chemicals."

Very concerning indeed.

So really, what flavors are the ones that are generally considered diacetyl-free or very low risk in relation to diacetyl (and acetyl propionyl)? I'm definitely going to explore the option of going flavorless, especially once I'm over the hurdle of quitting the analogs completely (I'm at a week now with no tobacco cigarettes at all). But I do like a few flavors and I have no way to know if they are truly diacetyl-free. I did ask the vendors I buy them from, both of them told me they were free of diacetyl, but I think they don't know because they test themselves... they are just trusting who they buy their ingredients/wholesale juices from.

Keep in mind, I have tried to avoid all the custards, because I thought I was minimizing my risk by doing so...
But now I'm wondering about my Waffle, Cotton Candy, Watermelon and Thin Mint...


Thoughts? Opinions? Advice? Help a gal out...

 

[Relaxed99]

From the reading I've done, "custard" style vapes may be the biggest one to keep an eye on for diacetyl. The best thing you can do is research and only buy from trusted vendors. I would think and hope that reputable sellers who say their liguids are diacetyl-free are truly diacetyl-free.

 

[LoveVanilla]

Waffle might be a suspect. What we're taking about with diketones are buttery flavors. Certainly flavors such as butterscotch, butter, creams, custards, toffee, etc. should be viewed with a jaundiced eye. But also surprisingly sometimes fruits, tobaccos, coffees, etc. If you notice a buttery taste or back note, that's the alarm bell. It's not instant death, but not something I choose to vape.

 

[Ritual]

I'm not trying to downplay the risks but "popcorn lung" is very rare. I think the only cases of people who have gotten it from diacetyl were 8 people who got it working at a butter popcorn factory and were inhaling huge amounts everyday, and one man who claimed he got it from eating microwave popcorn everyday for 10 years when they used to use pure diacetyl as a butter flavor.

I think Dr Falsarino's study mentioned that the levels tested were about twice as high as the strictest standard for inhalation, and 10 times lower then smoking tobacco. And tobacco smokers don't get popcorn lung.

I look forward to the industry removing diacetyl completely though.

 

[iamthevoice]

Yet when we smoked, we conveniently forgot about the risks of cancer of the lungs, throat, mouth, COPD, emphysema, cardiovascular disease, chronic bronchitis and a host of others... Ask yourself if there are not other things you are doing that present a far greater health risk than occasional diacetyl inhalation and worry about that if your health is really important. Sure every little bit counts but some bits really are smaller than others!

 

[issy]

Mountain Oak Vapors - The Best USA Made E-Liquid - Made in Tennessee

Scroll down to the health information, and read what they say about third-party testing for all the chemicals you mentioned. This is one of the reasons I ordered from MOV...hopefully the juice is as tasty as others say!

 

[SmokinRabbit]

From the reading I've done, "custard" style vapes may be the biggest one to keep an eye on for diacetyl. The best thing you can do is research and only buy from trusted vendors. I would think and hope that reputable sellers who say their liguids are diacetyl-free are truly diacetyl-free.

Agreed... already avoiding custards.
I guess my biggest concern now was that quote from Dr. F himself saying some of the juices they tested came from vendors saying they were indeed diacetyl-free, but proved not to be.

Waffle might be a suspect. What we're taking about with diketones are buttery flavors. Certainly flavors such as butterscotch, butter, creams, custards, toffee, etc. should be viewed with a jaundiced eye. But also surprisingly sometimes fruits, tobaccos, coffees, etc. If you notice a buttery taste or back note, that's the alarm bell. It's not instant death, but not something I choose to vape.

Waffle was probably my biggest concern in my own "favorites"... and it's also the flavor that gives me the best kick in the back of my throat considering my low nicotine levels. I'm going to ask the shop I get it from tomorrow where they get their flavor extracts from, so I can do a bit more research.

I'm not trying to downplay the risks but "popcorn lung" is very rare. I think the only cases of people who have gotten it from diacetyl were 8 people who got it working at a butter popcorn factory and were inhaling huge amounts everyday, and one man who claimed he got it from eating microwave popcorn everyday for 10 years when they used to use pure diacetyl as a butter flavor.

I think Dr Falsarino's study mentioned that the levels tested were about twice as high as the strictest standard for inhalation, and 10 times lower then smoking tobacco. And tobacco smokers don't get popcorn lung.

I look forward to the industry removing diacetyl completely though.

Here's my concern. From the reading I did, the people who got popcorn lung also appeared to be heavy smokers. That might make the combination of being a previously heavy smoker + vaping on juice with diacetyl, in fact, quite dangerous for some of us. All of us who are tobacco-quitters would certainly hate to find out the hard way, ten years from now, that we actually made our situations a whole lot worse than if we had just continued smoking.

Also, the way I read the report, 40% of juices tested had higher than safety levels, with the worst being 495 time higher than safety limits. That is quite terrifying, especially combined with the fact that the Dr. himself said some of the juices tested came from vendors who were claiming they were diacetyl-free. It was also noticeably higher than the amount found in cigarettes.

link to study again for your reference: A new study verifies the lower risk-potential of e-cigarettes but identifies an avoidable risk

Yet when we smoked, we conveniently forgot about the risks of cancer of the lungs, throat, mouth, COPD, emphysema, cardiovascular disease, chronic bronchitis and a host of others... Ask yourself if there are not other things you are doing that present a far greater health risk than occasional diacetyl inhalation and worry about that if your health is really important. Sure every little bit counts but some bits really are smaller than others!

The purpose of quitting was to minimize my risks, so I'd like to keep doing that. I'm avoiding custard flavors also, specifically to avoid diacetyl. If there are other steps I can take, like going to unflavored occasionally (or completely?), I may just do that... but right now, while I'm still trying to stay away from tobacco, the flavors help... so I just want to make informed choices. I don't think that's at all unreasonable.

I also happen to believe that having been a smoker for so long, I'm likely a lot more at risk for illness and injury than someone who never smoked... so minimizing diacetyl intake may even be more important.

 

[SmokinRabbit]

Mountain Oak Vapors - The Best USA Made E-Liquid - Made in Tennessee

Scroll down to the health information, and read what they say about third-party testing for all the chemicals you mentioned. This is one of the reasons I ordered from MOV...hopefully the juice is as tasty as others say!

Thanks... I will check them out!

 

[LoveVanilla]

Agreed... already avoiding custards.
I guess my biggest concern ...

You are smart rabbit to recognize that it is YOU who will potentially suffer the consequences of such very poor decisions.

When suppliers intentionally hide and even lie about their addition of diacetyl, something is quite wrong. While manufacturers of microwave popcorn voluntarily removed over ten year ago, here we find suppliers making a conscious decisions to add diacetyl to a product used for direct inhalation. Even when the only cure is a full lung transplant?

Such behavior without full disclosure is not only completely and unequivocally wrong, it is likely criminal. It's time for disclosure and prosecution of the bad apples. They have had plenty of fair notice. Think they will recognize this as the final warning shot across their bow?

Take care.


** edit **
As is probably evident, such callous behavior by certain suppliers makes my blood boil. These supplier should instead be the greatest advocate and watchdog of their customer's health. Cheers!

 

[SmokinRabbit]

LoveVanilla... I'm completely with you, if it is intentional. I'm not sure I agree that it's completely evident that every one of these vendors intentionally hid and lied though. I think at least some of them themselves were under the impression the juice they were selling did not have diacetyl in it, and will probably be just as surprised as the rest of us that it did have these dangerous ingredients.

Since many vendors aren't testing the juice they sell, they are relying on the information they receive to be accurate. An example, one of the local shops I buy from, when I asked the owner if their juice was diacetyl-free, all he could do was ask his supplier - the guy he buys his juice wholesale from, who brands it for the shop owner. The supplier says it's diacetyl-free. Even the supplier, who mixes the juices himself, might not be purposely misleading. He may have bought his ingredients from a place that lead him to believe the extracts were, in fact, diacetyl-free. And, it's possible even the extract seller wasn't intentionally misleading... considering diacetyl can be a naturally-occurring compound/chemical... it's possible that many of the people involved, from flavor chemists to shop owners, did not realize that even though no diacetyl was added, it still ended up appearing because it's a byproduct of a combination of ingredients when mixed, or is a direct result of the vaping process, or maybe even something else.

It's like a game of telephone... and the biggest fault of some people in the game may simply be trusting that the information they got was accurate to begin with. It appears now that testing and documentation on the finished product, at the point just before it's packaged to be sold, is going to be much more important than anyone thought.

I think there's clearly something going on here that's more than hiding and lying.
Sure, I think there's definitely a possibility that a percent of vendors were acting nefarious, but I also think it's likely that something much more complex is happening, from a break-down in communication across different business channels, to just a possible lack of understanding to the chemistry that is occurring in a relatively new industry.

 

[Jode]

I really don't know how scared to be about these findings. I am just too new to this all. Of course, my luck....It took me three weeks to figure out what taste profile I like the best and of course it has to be custards. I am seriously thinking of just vaping unflavored for a while at least until more research or something is done. What I don't get is that you cannot seem to find premixed, unflavored and I am kind of intimidated by the DIY aspect. Not to mention the fact that I have my two grand babies here in my home. As is I keep my ejuice and any partially filled tanks in a lock box. The idea of having a higher concentrate of nicotine (even locked) scares the boots off me. I did see unflavored juice at a local place, but it is the same price as flavored (not a big issue but if I can do better why not try), and I believe it is either criss cross or voodoo which I had tried a few one flavor types from each and they were horrible. I wonder if even though it says unflavored if there is better unflavored ones or if all are the same. Somebody please help this noob that is too scared to dive into DIY but a bit scared of the diacetyl (and other chemicals) issues in the flavoring.

 

[SmokinRabbit]

Jode,

I'm going to try to pick up a bottle of unflavored locally... one of the shops I deal with, in theory, should be able to sell it to me since they mix all their flavors on the spot and to order. I know DIY is the better way to go, but I'm really not interested in having nicotine concentrate in my home either.

Someone else here in the forums suggested that the unflavored was actually pretty nice tasting, and simulated the "smoking experience" better than anything else they tried. Can't speak to it myself yet, but I do know I like my flavors. Like you, I'm not sure how to feel about this study and its findings. It's all quite scary, but there's the part of me that just wants to bury my head in the sand like I did with cigarettes.

Would also love to hear input from others who smoke flavorless... whether they mix it themselves or buy it...

 

[Jode]

Jode,

I'm going to try to pick up a bottle of unflavored locally... one of the shops I deal with, in theory, should be able to sell it to me since they mix all their flavors on the spot and to order. I know DIY is the better way to go, but I'm really not interested in having nicotine concentrate in my home either.

Someone else here in the forums suggested that the unflavored was actually pretty nice tasting, and simulated the "smoking experience" better than anything else they tried. Can't speak to it myself yet, but I do know I like my flavors. Like you, I'm not sure how to feel about this study and its findings. It's all quite scary, but there's the part of me that just wants to bury my head in the sand like I did with cigarettes.

Would also love to hear input from others who smoke flavorless... whether they mix it themselves or buy it...

Thanks for answering. You gave me an idea with your first comment and that is to ask at a semi local (about an hour from me) shop that has a tasting bar and have at least one brand made in house if they would be interested in doing larger quantities of unflavored juice mixed to nic/pg/vg levels similar to flavored juice. I was able to pick up unflavored (tasty puff) but it was $7 for 5ml. mooch expensive IMO. I was also discouraged because the lowest mg's was 21 and I have been vaping 6 mostly with a few juices that still had 12 and 18 from when I was still trying to figure out best nic strength for me. I know I could cut in vg but I really have no idea how to get it to 6.

Maybe it is time for me to figure this whole DIY stuff out or as you said contemplate going back to being that ostridge. I am also confused as a new member why this is not getting a bigger response here. Is it because it is old news, too political, seen as a scare tactic, or people just assuming the possible risk. I don't get it. I understand that the diacetyl issues are not new but I think the study done finding it in juices reported to have none is new and this is the alarming thing for me. I wish I had a better handle on just how big an issue this is.

 

[LoveVanilla]

Not sure what strength you vape, but here's a source (USP Nicotine Solutions) where you can buy unflavored nic in 12mg, 18mg, 24mg, etc strengths. 120ml of 12mg/ml can be purchased for $6.39. And unless you have reason not, I would suggest VG base (it is what I use and prefer). You'll need to add distilled water at ~15-20% as VG is quite viscous. If you vape at 6mg, you can also buy straight VG and down mix. At <=24mg, handling risks should be quite reduce (but not when kids or pets are in the house).

And yes, vapers are fairly exhausted. Suppliers such as Flavor West obviously intend to sell diacetyl-laced products to the unsuspecting until their business is shuttered and steel doors have slammed closed behind them. Do you think there's any chance they might prove me wrong?

Meanwhile there are flavor suppliers who do test/avoid "known harmful" contents. FlavorArt (FA) and The Flavor Apprentice (TFA) are two known, trusted suppliers that do test. FA has their flavors separated into an "ecig" and "kitchen" (i.e. unsafe) line. TFA does GC at 98% and publishes on their web site.

If interested, Wizard Labs (ref. above link) does sell TFA flavors and here is a list of those that have tested "clean". WL's owner is a chemist and they are a well-respected supplier.

 

[vangrl27]

Agree with everything that Love Vanilla said!

And if you don't want to bother mixing at all, you can even buy 6mg - 120ml bottles for $5.99, with your choice of 100% VG, 100% PG, or a 50/50 blend.

6mg Unflavored Nicotine Base - ecigExpress

I used these guys when I first started out because I was a bit nervous to start mixing my own nic, and graduated from there, although I'm still a novice

Throw in a few flavours that L.V recommended incase you don't dig the unflavored. FlavorArt Fuji Apple & White Peach are good standalone flavours, I'm also really digging their peppermint!

 

[vangrl27]

LoveVanilla... I'm completely with you, if it is intentional. I'm not sure I agree that it's completely evident that every one of these vendors intentionally hid and lied though. I think at least some of them themselves were under the impression the juice they were selling did not have diacetyl in it, and will probably be just as surprised as the rest of us that it did have these dangerous ingredients.

Since many vendors aren't testing the juice they sell, they are relying on the information they receive to be accurate. An example, one of the local shops I buy from, when I asked the owner if their juice was diacetyl-free, all he could do was ask his supplier - the guy he buys his juice wholesale from, who brands it for the shop owner. The supplier says it's diacetyl-free. Even the supplier, who mixes the juices himself, might not be purposely misleading. He may have bought his ingredients from a place that lead him to believe the extracts were, in fact, diacetyl-free. And, it's possible even the extract seller wasn't intentionally misleading... considering diacetyl can be a naturally-occurring compound/chemical... it's possible that many of the people involved, from flavor chemists to shop owners, did not realize that even though no diacetyl was added, it still ended up appearing because it's a byproduct of a combination of ingredients when mixed, or is a direct result of the vaping process, or maybe even something else.

It's like a game of telephone... and the biggest fault of some people in the game may simply be trusting that the information they got was accurate to begin with. It appears now that testing and documentation on the finished product, at the point just before it's packaged to be sold, is going to be much more important than anyone thought.

I think there's clearly something going on here that's more than hiding and lying.
Sure, I think there's definitely a possibility that a percent of vendors were acting nefarious, but I also think it's likely that something much more complex is happening, from a break-down in communication across different business channels, to just a possible lack of understanding to the chemistry that is occurring in a relatively new industry.

Wow ! I find it really interesting that you've been vaping for only a month or so, yet know so much regarding this issue, kudos to you!

I agree that a lot of what you say may be true, but this issue has been around for a long time, so there's no excuse for vendors to plead ignorance any more. They may not have "hid & lied" but they certainly should have been doing their own investigating as you are doing. IMHO

 

[j0sh]

I first heard of diacetyl and diketones after I was recommended a particular flavor. I googled it and the first vendor that popped up had a big well displayed warning and explanation. They scared me off but after thinking about it for a while I almost want to place an order with them just for being forthright about the matter.

 

[garyoa1]

Diacetyl- Risks, Prevalence, and Precautions

Diacetyl- Risks, Prevalence, and PrecautionsSpinfuel eMagazine | Spinfuel eMagazine

 

[SmokinRabbit]

Maybe it is time for me to figure this whole DIY stuff out or as you said contemplate going back to being that ostridge. I am also confused as a new member why this is not getting a bigger response here. Is it because it is old news, too political, seen as a scare tactic, or people just assuming the possible risk. I don't get it. I understand that the diacetyl issues are not new but I think the study done finding it in juices reported to have none is new and this is the alarming thing for me. I wish I had a better handle on just how big an issue this is.

I also don't know why there isn't more outcry about it. The issue of diacetyl may not be new, but this issue of it being found in juices from vendors who were claiming it wasn't there certainly is, and as I mentioned in an earlier reply, there may be a complex set of reasons as to why it has happened.

And it's quite disconcerting that I can search here and on google and ask at my local shop, but there's just no way to be sure unless I have the money to spend on the lab testing myself.

Someone in another thread mentioned an idea that was interesting... it was the thought that there could be enforcement within the industry itself by an independent entity doing random testing and publishing the results. Someone like CASAA, or AEMSA, or a similar organization, or even on online e-cig magazine/blog could take this on, with funding for the lab testing coming from user subscription fees, membership dues and advertising dollars. The could have ejuice randomly tested once per month, or per week (or whatever funding would allow), and then publishing the results. This would encourage vendors do do their own testing, and to want to be sure what they are selling is what they SAY they are selling.

In addition, I'd like to think there is SOMEONE interested in investigating how all this has come to be. While certainly there is some out-and-out lying, like I said previously, I don't thing that accounts for every vendor, supplier, and manufacturer. I'm pretty sure something else is happening that we don't yet quite understand.

Not sure what strength you vape, but here's a source (USP Nicotine Solutions) where you can buy unflavored nic in 12mg, 18mg, 24mg, etc strengths. 120ml of 12mg/ml can be purchased for $6.39. And unless you have reason not, I would suggest VG base (it is what I use and prefer). You'll need to add distilled water at ~15-20% as VG is quite viscous. If you vape at 6mg, you can also buy straight VG and down mix. At <=24mg, handling risks should be quite reduce (but not when kids or pets are in the house)...

And yes, vapers are fairly exhausted. Suppliers such as Flavor West obviously intend to sell diacetyl-laced products to the unsuspecting until their business is shuttered and steel doors have slammed closed behind them. Do you think there's any chance they might prove me wrong?

LV, I appreciate all the info, but I know I'm not all that interested in getting into DIY, and I suspect there are a lot of consumers who equally aren't interested. Additionally, until there is more information as to how it's possible that diacetyl showed up in these tests even from vendors who claimed not to use it (and from who), I don't think even DIYers can be sure they are making diacetyl-free juice. Again, as I said before, I don't think this is just a matter of lying... I think there's MUCH more to it than that, especially since we know that diacetyl can be a naturally-occuring chemical/compound, not just one that has to be added intentionally to be present. There are a lot of questions about this... is the naturally occurring version as dangerous? for example. It's sort of like the difference between naturally occurring arsenic that's found in Apple Juice vs. the type that is known to be used for killing rats.

Even Dr. Farsalinos said: "Even if experienced users use diy liquids, they still add flavors. And the flavor market is the same whether you diy or you obtain ready-to-vape liquids."

This report only came out a few days ago, so there's a whole lot more information we all need.

Wow ! I find it really interesting that you've been vaping for only a month or so, yet know so much regarding this issue, kudos to you!

I agree that a lot of what you say may be true, but this issue has been around for a long time, so there's no excuse for vendors to plead ignorance any more. They may not have "hid & lied" but they certainly should have been doing their own investigating as you are doing. IMHO

Maybe. Except that this report was only published a few days ago... so the fact that there are vendors who claimed to be selling diacetyl-free juices ended up being wrong, mislead or liars, well that IS pretty new. And the reason why it happened and exactly how wide-spread the problem is, well we just don't have all the answers yet. I, for one, really would like to. I think it's important for the industry itself to jump on this, which is exactly why Dr. Farsalinos did the research and published it. It's an avoidable risk, but the industry has to seek to avoid it!

 

[vangrl27]

I also don't know why there isn't more outcry about it. The issue of diacetyl may not be new, but this issue of it being found in juices from vendors who were claiming it wasn't there certainly is, and as I mentioned in an earlier reply, there may be a complex set of reasons as to why it has happened.

And it's quite disconcerting that I can search here and on google and ask at my local shop, but there's just no way to be sure unless I have the money to spend on the lab testing myself.

Someone in another thread mentioned an idea that was interesting... it was the thought that there could be enforcement within the industry itself by an independent entity doing random testing and publishing the results. Someone like CASAA, or AEMSA, or a similar organization, or even on online e-cig magazine/blog could take this on, with funding for the lab testing coming from user subscription fees, membership dues and advertising dollars. The could have ejuice randomly tested once per month, or per week (or whatever funding would allow), and then publishing the results. This would encourage vendors do do their own testing, and to want to be sure what they are selling is what they SAY they are selling.

In addition, I'd like to think there is SOMEONE interested in investigating how all this has come to be. While certainly there is some out-and-out lying, like I said previously, I don't thing that accounts for every vendor, supplier, and manufacturer. I'm pretty sure something else is happening that we don't yet quite understand.



LV, I appreciate all the info, but I know I'm not all that interested in getting into DIY, and I suspect there are a lot of consumers who equally aren't interested. Additionally, until there is more information as to how it's possible that diacetyl showed up in these tests even from vendors who claimed not to use it (and from who), I don't think even DIYers can be sure they are making diacetyl-free juice. Again, as I said before, I don't think this is just a matter of lying... I think there's MUCH more to it than that, especially since we know that diacetyl can be a naturally-occuring chemical/compound, not just one that has to be added intentionally to be present. There are a lot of questions about this... is the naturally occurring version as dangerous? for example. It's sort of like the difference between naturally occurring arsenic that's found in Apple Juice vs. the type that is known to be used for killing rats.

Even Dr. Farsalinos said: "Even if experienced users use diy liquids, they still add flavors. And the flavor market is the same whether you diy or you obtain ready-to-vape liquids."

This report only came out a few days ago, so there's a whole lot more information we all need.




Maybe. Except that this report was only published a few days ago... so the fact that there are vendors who claimed to be selling diacetyl-free juices ended up being wrong, mislead or liars, well that IS pretty new. And the reason why it happened and exactly how wide-spread the problem is, well we just don't have all the answers yet. I, for one, really would like to. I think it's important for the industry itself to jump on this, which is exactly why Dr. Farsalinos did the research and published it. It's an avoidable risk, but the industry has to seek to avoid it!

the detailed report only came out a few days ago, but if you read this thread you'll see that Dr.F disclosed it publicly a few months ago, and word spread like wildfire
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...517858-donate-dr-farsalinos-new-study-12.html

Also, this thread has been going on for a very long time, and the ECF members contributing to this thread brought the info to the attention of many, many vendors.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...acetyl-proprionyl-diacetyl-acetoine-help.html

I think that most vendors have at least been aware that you can't take the Flavour manufacturers word for their product being A&D free for at least 6 months. And for most informed Vapers that are trying to avoid A&D, getting an answer like this from their vendor - "we've spoken to our flavour manufacturer and they've assured us...." has not been acceptable for a long time


I like the idea of an independent entity doing random testing, it would put all E-juice makers on their toes.