Single vs Dual

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Papa_Lazarou

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does one have to literally experiment with multiple configurations to find changes in vape quality?

obviously juice is a huge variable, and for me personally that's the one that's relatively easy to change. but coil configuration just blows my mind. how the hell do you know without actually trying what would be good? it would take me a year to build each of the variations.

i wish i knew where to find some actual info and rules surrounding the different configurations. i'm aware of some rules of thumb when building, but every "review" i hear just reveals the same thing: "great flavor and vapor, try this build!"

@Papa_Lazarou, if someone blindfolded you, put the exact same juice and drip tip in each of your setups, adjusted air flows to be as similar as possible, would you be able to tell which is which?

Well, the experimentation is part of the hobby, really. I have a "go to" build for duals - 2x 26g 2.5mm ID netting .4ohms that I generally throw as a first build into most 22mm atties. That tells me things like air, heat, and squonking characteristics of the atty relative to a known baseline (since I'm very familiar with that build in over a dozen atties).

From there, I experiment to either lessen an affect I don't like or increase one I want. Experience, mostly, guides me as to what to adjust. Everything from heat ramp to air flow to firing temp to flavour/vapor output are in play.

For each setup, I have a goal in mind (factoring in the juice to be used and how I want to use the setup - different for different moods and times of the day).

Now, to your two questions...

Do you have to physically adjust the builds to learn? Yes and no. The basic principles (e.g., lower resistances yield more heat, need more air, produce more vapour; smaller chamber atties generally produce more flavour, etc.) are eminently learnable and applicable. The idiosyncrasies of a given atty or juice or... you... requires experimentation. But rather than be a daunting task, it should be viewed as discovery. I daresay you could try a half dozen different build configurations in a single atty in a day. Maybe a long day, with plenty of vaping to test involved, but achievable.

Could I tell the difference between setups blindfolded? Most definitely. There is no way to get, say, a .3ohm 24g dual setup in a Vector to feel just like a 1.4ohm 30g single coil in a RM2 using any other variables (air, dt, etc) you like.
 

plewm

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:)

From there, I experiment to either lessen an affect I don't like or increase one I want. Experience, mostly, guides me as to what to adjust. Everything from heat ramp to air flow to firing temp to flavour/vapor output are in play.
so could the exact same build, let's say your 26g go-to, feel very different in different atomizers?

For each setup, I have a goal in mind (factoring in the juice to be used and how I want to use the setup - different for different moods and times of the day).
makes sense.

Could I tell the difference between setups blindfolded? Most definitely. There is no way to get, say, a .3ohm 24g dual setup in a Vector to feel just like a 1.4ohm 30g single coil in a RM2 using any other variables (air, dt, etc) you like.
that's an unfair comparison! but point taken.

the basic principles you mentioned are ones i'm aware of, i just haven't had the gear to try and apply them. but i'll be getting so i want to be prepared.

last question: do you twist your 26g the same way you twist 28g? what method do you use, and are they loose/tight/what..

thanks for the information bud.
 
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Papa_Lazarou

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last question: do you twist your 26g the same way you twist 28g? what method do you use, and are they loose/tight/what..

Firstly, never feel like it's an imposition to ask questions. This whole scene, and this subforum in particular, thrives on it.

I generally use contact coils (no spaces between the wraps) with ID's between 2 and 3 mm. 24g, 26g, 30g - all built the same way. These days, I'm using a coil master V2, mostly because it's so convenient. Using the CM, I try to apply tension as I'm winding by locking the free end down with vice grips and winding toward it with the CM, holding tension with the CM as I do it (that might sound odd or confusing, but it works). If I just used the CM as it works out of the box, I get less tension the thinner the wire is (because the winding nut is fixed and allows more play with thinner wire).

I use the same technique with twisted wire (multiple strands of wire twisted together prior to winding the coil), using 28g or 30g. I find more exotic twisted wire types (e.g., tiger wire, or thicker wire strands) are better if I wind the coils by hand.
 

Danrogers

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Firstly, never feel like it's an imposition to ask questions. This whole scene, and this subforum in particular, thrives on it.

I generally use contact coils (no spaces between the wraps) with ID's between 2 and 3 mm. 24g, 26g, 30g - all built the same way. These days, I'm using a coil master V2, mostly because it's so convenient. Using the CM, I try to apply tension as I'm winding by locking the free end down with vice grips and winding toward it with the CM, holding tension with the CM as I do it (that might sound odd or confusing, but it works). If I just used the CM as it works out of the box, I get less tension the thinner the wire is (because the winding nut is fixed and allows more play with thinner wire).

I use the same technique with twisted wire (multiple strands of wire twisted together prior to winding the coil), using 28g or 30g. I find more exotic twisted wire types (e.g., tiger wire, or thicker wire strands) are better if I wind the coils by hand.


You're right Papa just a bit confusing but very interesting, I think a video is in order, it's for the better good!:banana:
 
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CMD-Ky

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does one have to literally experiment with multiple configurations to find changes in vape quality?

obviously juice is a huge variable, and for me personally that's the one that's relatively easy to change. but coil configuration just blows my mind. how the hell do you know without actually trying what would be good? it would take me a year to build each of the variations.

i wish i knew where to find some actual info and rules surrounding the different configurations. i'm aware of some rules of thumb when building, but every "review" i hear just reveals the same thing: "great flavor and vapor, try this build!"

@Papa_Lazarou, if someone blindfolded you, put the exact same juice and drip tip in each of your setups, adjusted air flows to be as similar as possible, would you be able to tell which is which?

Trial and error seems the only way to find what you like; the key words being "you like". I don't enjoy making coils, I hated building, disliking and then starting all over again. I didn't like this process, but, after many many revisions, I have found the builds I like. Perhaps no one other than me would like my builds but others aren't using my builds.
One thing that worked for me who hates building coils over and over, I switched to singles with twisted wire. It made coil placement easier (a very important component) and eliminated the concerns expressed by Papa above (leg length, coil similarity, leg placement, etc.). I even use the single coil on an RM9; many would disagree but I like the temperature, flavor and vapor production. I am completely cigarette free for over eighteen months.
I can't answer for Papa but if you gave that setup experiment to me, I think that I could tell setup build variations. I could not tell you what the build configuration is but I could differentiate between what I like and don't like. I might need a few minutes of use but I think that I would know.

I forgot to add that the Steam Engine calculator is a great help. I have used the "heat flux" and "heat capacity" as a guide to different builds. I use those numbers as relative comparisons between builds rather than as absolute values. It keeps me from building something that I know is too hot or cold.
 
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Papa_Lazarou

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Trial and error seems the only way to find what you like; the key words being "you like". I don't enjoy making coils, I hated building, disliking and then starting all over again. I didn't like this process, but, after many many revisions, I have found the builds I like. Perhaps no one other than me would like my builds but others aren't using my builds.
One thing that worked for me who hates building coils over and over, I switched to singles with twisted wire. It made coil placement easier (a very important component) and eliminated the concerns expressed by Papa above (leg length, coil similarity, leg placement, etc.). I even use the single coil on an RM9; many would disagree but I like the temperature, flavor and vapor production. I am completely cigarette free for over eighteen months.
I can't answer for Papa but if you gave that setup experiment to me, I think that I could tell setup build variations. I could not tell you what the build configuration is but I could differentiate between what I like and don't like. I might need a few minutes of use but I think that I would know.

I forgot to add that the Steam Engine calculator is a great help. I have used the "heat flux" and "heat capacity" as a guide to different builds. I use those numbers as relative comparisons between builds rather than as absolute values. It keeps me from building something that I know is too hot or cold.

Great post. :thumb:
 
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Silver1

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Great thread

Although i dont read everything on Reoville, when i do pop in from time to time it amazes me how much knowledge there is on this sub-forum. Thanks!

Been using my several Reos (mainly RM2s and Nuppins) for over a year. It amazes me how much one can learn and how much there is to try.

Despite having written down in my "vape notebook" on a few occasions "This is my IDEAL coil for this atty for this juice" i find myself continually thinking that i need to try something slightly different. Partly a chore but also a fun discovery process.

For hard hitting tobaccoes mouth to lung, my preferred setup is a 30g paracoil, 1.6mm ID in the RM2 that comes out at about 0.6 ohms. Mounted quite high up. Lots of flavour. Fast. Crisp.

For most other juices I am very happy with a 0.9 to 1.0 ohm single 28g coil on the RM2. Mounted fairly close to the edge and fractionally higher than the airhole.

For my Nuppins - have only tried duals - find it a bit of a chore to get the coils perfect and it takes me a while - but so far I am torn between the faster ramp and crispness of the 28g duals with 1.6mm iD at about 0.6 ohms versus the 26g duals with 2mm ID at about 0.4 ohms. The 26g is warmer but less crisp. It is more "rounded" and not as "sharp" as the 28g setup. When the battery is fresh I find the 26g setup a bit too hot on the drip tip (using an Odin tip). When the batt is a bit flatter it seems to be great for longish lung hits with good flavour. The rampup time does irritate me a bit. Still a lot of testing to be done on the Nuppin front...
 

K31Scout

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I forgot to add that the Steam Engine calculator is a great help. I have used the "heat flux" and "heat capacity" as a guide to different builds. I use those numbers as relative comparisons between builds rather than as absolute values. It keeps me from building something that I know is too hot or cold.

I've been using Steam Engine for a while and never paid attention to the "heat" indexes but I can see now how it works. Big differences between gauge of wire used and wraps and how cool or warm to expect a build to be and illustrated in color and not just numbers. Thanks for the tip on how useful Steam Engine and this site are.
 
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CMD-Ky

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I've been using Steam Engine for a while and never paid attention to the "heat" indexes but I can see now how it works. Big differences between gauge of wire used and wraps and how cool or warm to expect a build to be and illustrated in color and not just numbers. Thanks for the tip on how useful Steam Engine and this site are.

It was a while before I started playing with the coil variation and watching the relative changes in the "heat" numbers. It is a great helpful feature of Steam Engine. I don't really understand what I am seeing there so I don't really care what the actual values in "heat" are; I am more interested in the relative changes in wire and wraps make.
 

Rule62

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It was a while before I started playing with the coil variation and watching the relative changes in the "heat" numbers. It is a great helpful feature of Steam Engine. I don't really understand what I am seeing there so I don't really care what the actual values in "heat" are; I am more interested in the relative changes in wire and wraps make.

I've been paying attention to Heat Flux for a while now, myself; and I use it the same way. I don't pretend to understand the math, nor am I set on achieving a particular numerical value. I use the values comparatively, and it helps me in understanding that changing wire gauge will affect the heat values, even though the desired resistance is the same.
 

CMD-Ky

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I've been paying attention to Heat Flux for a while now, myself; and I use it the same way. I don't pretend to understand the math, nor am I set on achieving a particular numerical value. I use the values comparatively, and it helps me in understanding that changing wire gauge will affect the heat values, even though the desired resistance is the same.

I agree, when I started making coils, I shot for a particular resistance. When I started paying attention to the "heat" I was truly amazed at how the changes in wire affected the vape at the same resistance. I certainly don't understand the math or the actual numbers but I do understand the relative changes in heat. I don't understand a lot about many of the things I use but it seems to work out OK.
 
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