So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

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TWISTED VICTOR

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TV, thanks for the kind words! Always happy to spread the love of knowledge. Your contributions to bring simplicity to this subject are every bit as important as the hardcore organic and biochem...perhaps more so.

I noted in your avatar that you are from Lucerne, IN. Been through Lucerne several times. I did much of my teen growing up in Terre Haute...actually West Terre Haute. My Dad is originally from the Winamac/Star City area. I'm firmly east-coast now, but I still have very fond memories of hot summer nights parked with a pretty girl in my '74 Grand Torrino in a hidden end of a corn field, serenaded by cicadas and Robin Trower making his guitar cry on the car stereo. My folks live in Indy now, and so I get a taste of Hoosier life a couple times a year. What I really miss are the blue-gill and crappy fish fries with hushpuppies. And for you uninitiated, that word is pronounced croppy, and its related to the bass. And they are delicious, all five bites of them. :)
Hey, Kurt. The address is Lucerne, but I actually live in the metropolis of Metea (the old timers called it Lick Skillet) and I'm the Mayor (resident mechanic for the old timers). Dad's side is from the Winamac/Star City area, too. Some pretty heavy sounding Irish names....good people, but, tend to stagger a little when stepping around poo. Small world, huh.:) By the way, I was at the other end of the field that night in my '68 Chevelle. I'm taking it you didn't hear the slap. :oops:
 

olderthandirt

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TWISTED VICTOR

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Hi, Tbob. Another path I glanced down looked like, at the moment, the FDA was eyeballing the imported sauce. Wanting to shut it down, but still trying to justify on paper. As a matter of fact a little troll on that path mentioned the FDA was searching for nasties besides the nic and, at the moment, wouldn't pay much attention to the WTA if it plopped out of the bottle and bit them. Up 2 paths on the left a US manufacturer slips it in under a radar the FDA hasn't installed, yet. ??? Happy trails! I'll meander over to the enchanted forest, now. :)
 

IANAN

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Coffee avg: 100 micro / liter so lets say 25 micro / cup

Cigs: take a slightly high avg of 1 micro / cig and smke 5 of them = 5 micro

Yes, coffe still 5x higher.

Perhaps the answer is that smoke is lung absorbed, whereas digestion would quite possiby diminish the level reaching the blood considerably (?)

What might be most interesting in this report is that perhaps tobaccos content of these carbolines (not sure if these are the main ones or just 'dodgy' ones), is prodcued by the tobacco curing process.

Thanks!! My Cat's Claw (Has harman in it) has arrived and the brewed coffee was the final key for me to start playing around with herbs/natural alternative to WTA.

FYI- I bought some coffee for my commute today and inhaled the aroma... and consumed it while vaping. It seemed to help a lot.

--Kin the research you have dug up about Harman, Norharman, and Harmine-- It is matching what I dug up also. Chocalate also contains a beta-carboline in it as well.
 

DVap

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Day three for our tester. He's taken the remaining WTA liquid and diluted it 2X with regular nicotine liquid. The nicotine remains at the same level, but the other alkaloids are cut in half.
_____________________________

Day 3 - 50% WTA

7 hours elapsed.

50% alkaloids isn't as good. The flavor is OK, but I'm vaping more and the feeling of wellness is really slow to build up. Its not absent, but it isn't nearly as good as with the 100% at the same time yesterday.

I'm hoping for a catch up point. It seems to be getting closer, but I'm not sure it will ever be reached today.

Dropping to 50% alkaloids for a day may be a good thing, allowing me to come down slowly rather than just going cold turkey on the WTA.
 
Pretty interesting Kin.

As far as whats produced during curing, it seems that they focus the curing process of desired flavor result.
Sun dried results in the "blond" tobacco and reduces the nic level too. Flu and natural curing seem to focus on the fermentation processes that the tobacco goes through during this time. Ive read hanging in a basement, fermentation can still be evolving after 5yrs. Kind of like a good wine.

I doubt thats effecting the alkaloid content or ratios as flavors seem to result from esthers and other compounds.

How or what effect this has on carbolines is way above my limited chemistry knowledge.
So............I can't even speculate.

I think I have shown that playing with the curing would be a way to affect carboline levels (and HCAs in general unfortunately; a very blunt instrument); like any other product maker, will alter the product to increase sales.

And now it is clear why sugar is added to processed foods, even bread. And it has to do with more than sweetness. Addiction to processed foods is becoming as big a health hazard as smoking.
 
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Day three for our tester. He's taken the remaining WTA liquid and diluted it 2X with regular nicotine liquid. The nicotine remains at the same level, but the other alkaloids are cut in half.
_____________________________

Day 3 - 50% WTA

7 hours elapsed.

50% alkaloids isn't as good. The flavor is OK, but I'm vaping more and the feeling of wellness is really slow to build up. Its not absent, but it isn't nearly as good as with the 100% at the same time yesterday.

I'm hoping for a catch up point. It seems to be getting closer, but I'm not sure it will ever be reached today.

Dropping to 50% alkaloids for a day may be a good thing, allowing me to come down slowly rather than just going cold turkey on the WTA.

Wise move, and it also provides great info (because of the tester's observant feedback): that the other alkaloid content is effective, but also that it is only just enough - a good thing.
 
Thanks!! My Cat's Claw (Has harman in it) has arrived and the brewed coffee was the final key for me to start playing around with herbs/natural alternative to WTA.

FYI- I bought some coffee for my commute today and inhaled the aroma... and consumed it while vaping. It seemed to help a lot.

--Kin the research you have dug up about Harman, Norharman, and Harmine-- It is matching what I dug up also. Chocalate also contains a beta-carboline in it as well.

Will check, but even beta carboline may be a family of compounds with somewhat differing effects.

Might be one more reason why chocolate is taken as survival food (not just for dense calorie content but also able to keep spirits up.

ps: interesting though that the high content of carbolines in roasted coffee does not seem to be 'addictive' in to any great extent, certainly dwarfed by the satiation of something else, probably caffeine in this case. As with nicotine, overdosing is unlikely in normal use.

And the conclusion to draw is that carbolines alone, just as nic alone, is not that 'addictive'; it the combination. In layman's terms I'd say it is the ability of this combo to combine alertness with relaxed well-being.

This is not maybe unheard of without psychopharma intervention. What psychologists refer to as 'good stress' (enjoyable) could well elucidate this same combo (physiologically too) - I'm gonna call it 'performers high'. More similarity of effect than similarity biochemically, perhaps.
 
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Another interesting link, for notes on colors, effect of beta carbolines with other MAOIs, for noting a possibly longer-lasting effect of certain indoles or combinations, and for noting that different carboline combinations (yes, there many types) have different effects:

Erowid Syrian Rue Vault : Three Beta-Carboline Containing Plants...

"The syrian rue extract was the most interesting. It actually had long, thin, yellowish crystals in a brownish, red, hard, clear matrix ..." Sounds like they have a part salt, part freebase extract there (extract was just alcohol/water). Note the colors.
 
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DVap

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And the final observation from our tester (unless he has anything to add tomorrow).
___________________________

Day 3, after 13 hours.

I continue to feel the effects building, and at 12 hours, I didn't really feel too bad. I think continued use at this level would even out eventually.

Given time, the lower alkaloid liquid does catch up somewhat.

Volume vaped with the half strength alkaloids on Day 3 was 2 ml. More volume than on day 2, and satisfaction slowly gaining throughout the day.

There is less than one ml of the half strength alkaloid liquid left, and it will be cut in half again for day 4. I don't expect much satisfaction from the quarter strength alkaloids, but the return to normal will be tapered.

____________________________

Comment from me (DVap)... It's looking like my selection of 28 mg total alkaloids (~25 mg nicotine, ~ 3 mg other alkaloids) was on the mark. Day one and two, at full strength were studies in satisfaction, while day three at half strength appears to be a study in, "not quite there". Still, the limited efficacy at half strength for an e-liquid resistant vaper suggests that for the less affected folks, lower strength should work just fine. I was vaping 14 mg alkaloid liquid (same as the tester's half strength alkaloid liquid, except his was still full nicotine strength) between Saturday afternoon and Thursday morning, and it left me at peace with the universe. I'm still a little foggy 15 hours later, and it's going take me a good day and a half to clear the "quitting fog". I could have easily managed 8 mg alkaloids, but the good analog taste might really start to fade down that low. I feel like I just spent 5 days on analogs, except I don't stink and I'm not wheezing or feeling like I have charcoal briquettes in place of my lungs.
 

Elf

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Thank you for the thoughts and suggestions Twisted Victor.
It has been about 2 months now since i switched from cigs to vaping, and I noticed lately that those cravings for something missing were getting much worse. I have always had trouble going to sleep, and my cigs used to help with that a lot if i had a good puff session right before bed.
With your suggestion, I first got a camel snus since it was available down the street. It did not do a whole lot for me, however it did seem somehow to let me rest just ever so slightly easier at the end of the night. With that thought, I then ordered 4 different tins of swedish snus so that I can see if that has the missing something for me. I suppose it will be here in a couple weeks.

But now here is something else interesting I just experienced today....

Until now I have been using internet sourced liquid from various places (built up quite a collection just sampling in a couple months), and then a month ago I started mixing my own liquids from 60mg concentrate. From this concentrate I settled on 2 main formulas I really liked. 20mg standard (I vape a lot of this, I never seem to stop), and 10mg when I chain-vape with my 5v passthrough. I still on occasion would add a few drops of 36mg menthol (from TW) for an extra kick, especially in the mornings and at nighttime as I try to settle down to sleep.

Well today my Platinum Ice arrived. Now I have heard that some felt that TW's PI seems real strong for its strength (54mg), so I was eager to see what the difference was. I recalculated my recipe for the 54mg source, and made my favorite recipe in 20mg, just like the other liquid.
More curious than ever about PI, I gave my new mix a try to
see if I noticed any difference...

Wow. Yes. Very much so.

It does seem at first to hit much harder than my other 20mg that I mixed from the 60mg. In fact, honestly, it feels stronger than the 36, and if I put it in the passthrough it gives me a feeling I have not felt in a long while. This obviously is not WTA liquid- in fact quite the opposite by what I hear of it's purity, but the punch of the nicotine I feel is absolutely fantastic compared to everything I have tried so far. I do wonder how this will affect me when I finally lay down to sleep here, and if the next few days will seem any different with this new mixture. It is really hard to tell right now because the punch this PI seems to be strong and have some kind of effect that I have not experienced with the rest of the liquids. Assuming the advertised nicotine concentrations of all the various liquids I have gathered are fairly accurate (probably about 30 bottles, many different sources), I really have to wonder if the nicotine we get in the standard liquids is "inhibited" somehow by something else in the liquid. The 20mg I mixed gives me more of a buzz than any 36mg i have tried. Somehow it is indeed a very different feeling from the rest.
 
Today's research into carbolines was the most exciting by far, and will not likely be repeated. It has brought together insights into smoking, and more besides, that ties up so much of what I have researched previously. The importance of these findings and analysis is quite breathtaking. The details may be somewhat fuzzy but the overall scheme is well-defined. So here is a brief summary.

Carbolines are a type of alkaloid with psychoactive, and other, properties that are fairly widespread in nature. Some of the beta carbolines, in particular, have been found to have a bariety of beneficial therapeutic effects. Psychoactively, while some tend to hallucinatory effects, others, and this would include thse in tobacco, have a calming effects similar to opiates (and affecting some of the same receptor sites).

The beta carbolines in tobacco, possibly in conjunction with other alkaloids, particularly those also with MAOI activity, play a role that is both supporting of the activity of nicotine (via MAOI activity), and possibly a secondary more direct role on their own. Together, the synergy of MAOIs plus nicotine, plus additional mild, opiate-like activity, provide the unique features of tobacco smoke on human psychology (mild alertness coupled with mild relaxation).

Previous research, mostly un-noted, suggests that beta carbolines are likely the key alkaloids responsible for the 'something missing' experienced with nicotine alone. Others' extractions of beta carbolines from beta carboline rich sources is a strong indicator that this is indeed on the right lines, given the similarity of color of that extraction with the recent tobacco extraction noted in this thread.

Clues led to the nature of harmful toxins called heterocyclic amines (HCAs) in cooked and processed foods. These are created by the action of heat on micxtures of carbohydrates and proteins/dehydrated proteins. One type of HCA is carbolines. While some of the carbolines will be beta carbolines, others will be toxic alpha carbolines. In general most HCAs are bad news. The levels in cooked foods can be far higher than even those found in cigarette smoke (cigarette smoke contains many other toxins too though).

Nevertheless, the existence of some beta carbolines among the generally toxic HCAs is quite likely a reason why there is an 'addiction' to processed and fast foods beyond ease and sweet taste. From a health perspective, an 'addiction' to food that contains high levels of HCAs (and other similar heat induced toxins), and that are also often devoid of significant nutritional value, is serious matter, whose effects are becoming ever clearer.

Ethanol is primarily a 'downer', with the 'high' attributed to preferential slowing of the frontal cortex creating lowered social inhibitions. But there is likely more to it than that, and once again beta carolines might play a key role.

Indeed, I am proposing that beta carbolines play a key role in a broad range of pharmacologically mediated 'addictictiveness', primarily through a mild stimulation of the opiate mediated reward system, and particularly strongly when combined with nicotine and other MAOIs in smoking, with an endorphin release also involved.

In the context of smoking, the inclusion of beta carbolines - and indeed, the whole family of alkaloids found in tobacco - will ensure the best possible efficacy for smoking replacement products. It is almost impossible to over-stress the importance of this point.
 
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DVap

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Today's research into carbolines was the most exciting by far, and will not likely be repeated. It has brought together insights into smoking, and more besides, that ties up so much of what I have researched previously. The importance of these findings and analysis is quite breathtaking. The details may be somewhat fuzzy but the overall scheme is well-defined. So here is a brief summary.

Carbolines are a type of alkaloid with psychoactive, and other, properties that are fairly widespread in nature. Some of the beta carbolines, in particular, have been found to have a bariety of beneficial therapeutic effects. Psychoactively, while some tend to hallucinatory effects, others, and this would include thse in tobacco, have a calming effects similar to opiates (and affecting some of the same receptor sites).

The beta carbolines in tobacco, possibly in conjunction with other alkaloids, particularly those also with MAOI activity, play a role that is both supporting of the activity of nicotine (via MAOI activity), and possibly a secondary more direct role on their own. Together, the synergy of MAOIs plus nicotine, plus additional mild, opiate-like activity, provide the unique features of tobacco smoke on human psychology (mild alertness coupled with mild relaxation).

Previous research, mostly un-noted, suggests that beta carbolines are likely the key alkaloids responsible for the 'something missing' experienced with nicotine alone. Others' extractions of beta carbolines from beta carboline rich sources is a strong indicator that this is indeed on the right lines, given the similarity of color of that extraction with the recent tobacco extraction noted in this thread.

Clues led to the nature of harmful toxins called heterocyclic amines (HCAs) in cooked and processed foods. These are created by the action of heat on micxtures of carbohydrates and proteins/dehydrated proteins. One type of HCA is carbolines. While some of the carbolines will be beta carbolines, others will be toxic alpha carbolines. In general most HCAs are bad news. The levels in cooked foods can be far higher than even those found in cigarette smoke (cigarette smoke contains many other toxins too though).

Nevertheless, the existence of some beta carbolines among the generally toxic HCAs is quite likely a reason why there is an 'addiction' to processed and fast foods beyond ease and sweet taste. From a health perspective, an 'addiction' to food that contains high levels of HCAs (and other similar heat induced toxins), and that are also often devoid of significant nutritional value, is serious matter, whose effects are becoming ever clearer.

Ethanol is primarily a 'downer', with the 'high' attributed to preferential slowing of the frontal cortex creating lowered social inhibitions. But there is likely more to it than that, and once again beta carolines might play a key role.

Indeed, I am proposing that beta carbolines play a key role in a broad range of pharmacologically mediated 'addictictiveness', primarily through a mild stimulation of the opiate mediated reward system, and particularly strongly when combined with nicotine and other MAOIs in smoking, with an endorphin release also involved.

In the context of smoking, the inclusion of beta carbolines - and indeed, the whole family of alkaloids found in tobacco - will ensure the best possible efficacy for smoking replacement products. It is almost impossible to over-stress the importance of this point.

Of the more prominent minor alkaloids, I look at nornicotine, anabatine, possibly anabasine, and for some reason, my attention is drawn to the more minor myosmine... and throw the bipyridyls and dipyridyls in there too.

kin, I'll have to give a miss to research for a bit... I've got my hands full getting enough alks extracted and purified for testing round 2!
 
Of the more prominent minor alkaloids, I look at nornicotine, anabatine, possibly anabasine, and for some reason, my attention is drawn to the more minor myosmine... and throw the bipyridyls and dipyridyls in there too.

kin, I'll have to give a miss to research for a bit... I've got my hands full getting enough alks extracted and purified for testing round 2!

Doubtless many of the psychoactive tobacco alkaloids play a part; I'd be happy to downgrade the importance of beta carbolines if facts show otherwise.

Will look into myosmine, bipyridyls and dipyridyls over the next few days.

Would be interesting to see how a beta-carboline extract compares to your accustomed eye and nose, for comparison (something for the long list; despite ticking items off, it just keeps growing! ;) ).

Good luck with the second round preparation; and keep an eye out for anything that might be a clue to some greater discovery !

edit: Re myosmine, bipyridyls and dipyridyls - other than needing to be wary of suggested toxicity and mutagenicity, I see no useful role for these.
 
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IANAN

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Curse those clever devils...

I was curious why it got missed. The link needs a cookie and it don't workey when posted on interweb forums;

Monoamine oxidase A rather than monoamine oxidase B inhibition increases nicotine reinforcement in rats (It was published in European Journal of Neuroscience Volume 24 Issue 12, Pages 3532 - 3540)

Here, we investigated the effects of clorgyline hydrochloride (irreversible MAO-A inhibitor; 2 mg/kg/day), selegiline (irreversible MAO-B inhibitor; 4 mg/kg) and the beta-carboline norharmane hydrochloride (reversible MAO-B inhibitor; 5 mg/kg/day) treatments on nicotine self-administration (30 µg/kg/infusion, free base) in rats. Independent of the responsiveness to novelty and locomotor activity stimulation, only clorgyline hydrochloride treatment increased the intake of nicotine in a fixed-ratio schedule (FR5) of reinforcement. When a progressive-ratio schedule was implemented, both clorgyline hydrochloride and norharmane hydrochloride treatments potentiated the reinforcing effects of nicotine, whereas selegiline had no effect. Taken together, these results indicate that MAO-A inhibition interacts with nicotine to enhance its rewarding effects in rats and suggest that other compounds present in tobacco, such as beta-carboline, may also play an important role in sustaining smoking behavior in humans.

Anywho Chocolate contains 6-Hydroxy-1-methyl-1,2, 3,4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline (6OHMTHbetaC), 1,2,3, 4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline-3-carboxylic acid (THCA), 1-methyl-1,2,3, 4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline-3-carboxylic acid (MTCA) in both diastereoisomers (1S,3S and 1R,3S), and 1-methyl-1,2,3, 4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline (MTHbetaC)

I wasn't asking if it contains them :D I was stating that they in fact do contain them.

Beta-carbolines have the ability to potentiate other alkaloids... and sure a snot in;
Transient behavioral sensitization to nicotine becomes long-lasting with monoamine oxidases inhibitors.
Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 2003 Sep;76(2):267-74
ere we show that whereas behavioral sensitization to D-amphetamine (0.5 and 0.75 mg/kg) stays constant following three consecutive periods of withdrawal (15, 30 and 30 days), the same experimental conditions completely abolish behavioral sensitization to 0.3 and 0.5 mg/kg nicotine. Indeed, following these periods of withdrawal, locomotor responses to nicotine are identical to those obtained at the first nicotine injection or after repeated saline injections. However, when a monoamine oxidases inhibitor (MAOI), tranylcypromine (3 mg/kg) or pargyline (30 mg/kg), is co-injected with nicotine, behavioral sensitization is maintained despite submission of the animals to the same withdrawal experimental design. Since tobacco smoke is known to contain many compounds including MAOIs, our data suggest that addictive properties of tobacco may not be limited to nicotine. We propose that MAOIs potentiate effects of nicotine on monoamines release.
 
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hawk

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Nov 9, 2009
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Hey Trog,

I believe if you go to the ECA and download the 30 page Fact Sheet they reference the New Zealand Safety Study on the Ryuan electronic cigarette and, reading that, you'll find that they measure plenty of nicotine in the vapor. My conclusion? Relax, you're are a better person with better focus as your are getting the nicotine. Dr. Laugesen did point out the 16mg level was about half of the nicotine level of a regular cigarette.

Vaping in Vegas,

Hawk
 
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