So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[kinabaloo]

Question?
Wouldn't any product extracted from "tobacco only" be covered under the existing laws or does it go back to that you made it a diff shape nonsense?

If we look at the issue as one of safe alternatives to smoking, then WTA is clearly the best, wisest choice to ensure maximum harm reduction. If that is the goal of health poilcy, how can it be denied?

 

[kinabaloo]

The article 'On love and chocolate - the relaxing, stress-relieving side of alkaloids' is now here:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ress-relieving-side-alkaloids.html#post721774

And includes a novel thought on the nature of our 'addiction'.

 

[Brewster 59]

I like to vape. Sometimes, I even love it........but.........I still want an analog.
I'm still panicky if i don't have one around. I got the trial pack from getsnus and hope that it might help. I have job requirements that demand I be mentally on the ball, and the mental wasteland is not an option.

I also wondered if perhaps tobacco absolute might provide some of the alkaloids that are missing in the juice. Any thoughts, oh chemical gurus?

I'm with OTD, rum, straight- no ice. Captain and cocoa is perfect in a NY winter.

Well for me the snus and ecig combo works great but if the snus doesn't get the job done try the nasal snuff. I don't know anything about nasal snuff but stubby does maybe he will chime in.

 

[Vaporer]

DVap, I was looking at it strictly from a marketing perspective.
Nothing else was meant to be inferred or implyed.
If it turns out to be that good, You should expect offers.
My comment was strictly of would they try to deform it like they do all the other stuff into something its not and we already have. We just have it in "thier" form.

There's no part of a PV that cant be homemade and all materials are readily available.
That only leave the nic liquid and right now WTA sounds like the next best and better thing. Followed by TB's snus juice and then whatever can be made from thier nic products.

I won't go back to analogs. They can do, rule, legislate, ban, prohibit till thier asses bleed for all I care and I'll help/teach who I can that doesnt want to go back at the same time.
I have a new atty design to post and the images won't upload!


Nothing to do with what people decide to do with whatever.

 

[DVap]

If we look at the issue as one of safe alternatives to smoking, then WTA is clearly the best, wisest choice to ensure maximum harm reduction. If that is the goal of health poilcy, how can it be denied?

If we look at smoking alternative acceptable to the smoker, this certainly makes sense.

Unfortunately, so much policy is centered around getting the smoker off tobacco/tobacco products/NRT's entirely without regard to the possibility that the smoker might actually WISH TO CONTINUE WITH HIS PARTICULAR ADDICTION, but would simply prefer to carry on in a safer manner.

Well, actually the policy isn't centered around getting smokers off tobacco/tobacco products/NRT's at all. The policy is an unholy marriage of government, big pharma, and big tobacco, that assures much sound and fury, but quite little actually being accomplished to rock the status quo.

 

[Brewster 59]

There's no part of a PV that cant be homemade and all materials are readily available.
That only leave the nic liquid,I won't go back to analogs. They can do, rule, legislate, ban, prohibit till thier asses bleed for all I care and I'll help/teach who I can that doesnt want to go back at the same time.
I have a new atty design to post and the images won't upload!


Nothing to do with what people decide to do with whatever.

Now thats the spirit if the damn FDA bans ecig maybe its possible to make pv's, and even ejuice from snus or chewing tob?

 

[DVap]

DVap, I was looking at it strictly from a marketing perspective.
Nothing else was meant to be inferred or implyed.
If it turns out to be that good, You should expect offers.
My comment was strictly of would they try to deform it like they do all the other stuff into something its not and we already have. We just have it in "thier" form.

There's no part of a PV that cant be homemade and all materials are readily available.
That only leave the nic liquid and right now WTA sounds like the next best and better thing. Followed by TB's snus juice and then whatever can be made from thier nic products.

I won't go back to analogs. They can do, rule, legislate, ban, prohibit till thier asses bleed for all I care and I'll help/teach who I can that doesnt want to go back at the same time.
I have a new atty design to post and the images won't upload!


Nothing to do with what people decide to do with whatever.

I'm no expert on atty design, but if I had to I could come up with something workable, I could.. and many other folks as well. The battery side is trivial.

The eliquid side has always been the toughest, and while I won't publish detailed "how to" instructions out of my sense of responsibility to safety, there are others out there as educated or more educated in chemistry who will tell folks how to make pure tobacco extracts, and even more who will publish defective, dangerous, or nutty "how to" guides.

All three legs of the triangle are in place: Batteries, atomizers, and eliquid.

If testing shows compelling evidence that WTA eliquid is more effective than regular nicotine liquid (so far, so good on the testing!), and more effective than any of the so-called NRT's, then I feel a bit like I'm teasing people who need viable relief from analog addiction with the possibility.

On the other hand, if a competent manufacturer can pick up on this, and satisfy the demand, there's money to be made, but we must be aware that there's also money to be made for incompetent manufacturers (and no, I can't patent what chemists have known how to do for hundreds of years).

lol, I can only hope that if a competent manufacturer picks up on this and makes a fortune.. that they think of me kindly.

 

[kinabaloo]

If we look at smoking alternative acceptable to the smoker, this certainly makes sense.

Unfortunately, so much policy is centered around getting the smoker off tobacco/tobacco products/NRT's entirely without regard to the possibility that the smoker might actually WISH TO CONTINUE WITH HIS PARTICULAR ADDICTION, but would simply prefer to carry on in a safer manner.

Not only that; many cannot quit the 'addiction' so better there is a safer replacement; after all, as it is so close to harmless (e-liquid in particular), where's the case for banning/limiting smokeless nicotine / WTA use?

For a fair proportion the only 'therapy' will need to be long-term (life-long); and for those who wish to enjoy their life and, rightly or wrongly, see vaping as part of that, why shouldn't they be able to do so.

ps: i hope those pockets of gold remember me too

 

[Stubby]

Well for me the snus and ecig combo works great but if the snus doesn't get the job done try the nasal snuff. I don't know anything about nasal snuff but stubby does maybe he will chime in.

Okay, you dragged me back into the thread (not that I wasn't following it).

I'm certainly no expert on nasal snuff, other then to say it sure is good. There are a few people for whom nasal snuff becomes their main, and even only source of nicotine. But for most of us snus users, including me, it's really just a pleasant diversion from our main source of nicotine/WTA's, which is snus.(okay, I missed the meaning of WTA: With Tobacco Alkaloids: Wimpy Tiny Androids?)

If something is missing for you with e-cigs snus is your best bet for the moment.

 

[DVap]

A last comment from the tester for the night:
_______________

WTA is the X-factor as far as I'm concerned.

It's better than I expected, not just another odd flavor with a different buzz.

It's Liquid Analogs. All that's missing are the frills like unique flavors, menthol... stuff that's good but easy to do without. WTA fills the void.

 

[DVap]

I should note that having the whole tobacco alkaloid spread in an e-liquid does bring up more concerns than just having nicotine in an e-liquid.

Instead of dealing with the metabolism of nicotine, we're dealing with the metabolism of many more compounds. Nornicotine, anabasine, anabatine, and myosmine, to name a few. The potential for toxicity, carcinogenicity, nitrosation, and other factors becomes a more complex study with the more complex alkaloid spread present.

It cannot be said enough, nicotine e-liquid is not "harmless", and whole tobacco alkaloid liquid is probably moreso not "harmless".

The prevailing prejudice among the doctors, scientists, busybodies, and such is to compare the harm potential of consuming these materials versus not consuming them at all.

Among the more enlightened, the harm potential of consuming these materials is compared to the harm potential of consuming these materials in a carrier of pyrolyzed tobacco leaf (aka tobacco smoke).

 

[kinabaloo]

The real harm is in less people switching from smoking because e-liquid doesn't 'do it'.

Plus, WTA is more satient, so less consumed.

And to push it a bit, who's to say that nic alone is unbalancing some people in a way that WTA would not?


ps: it's lucky this much concern to analyse each and every constituent doesn't apply to vegetables, or we'd have nothing to eat

Not even the best foods are problem free. Nuts (epidemiological studies show nuts to be one of few foods common among healthy, long-lived people) - full of oxalates. Whole grain/bran - full of phytates. Magnesium - bad for potassium aborption. Potassium - bad for magnesium absorption

Don't laugh, for there those who'd love to replace, say, milk with a simple chalk in water, goverment-approved-as-safe concoction. Oranges? Thousands of natural chemicals, untested sorry - you now need to use this this orange-colored water with a pinch of vitamin instead.

There's maybe a billion people need an effective way to get off smoke so I really don't see the urgent need to fret about some slight toxicity.

Instead the focus would be on redesigning the atomiser to avoid the 45% alkaloid loss (with who knows what end-products - will dwarf the minor alkaloids), and avoid possibility of liquid leakage (the one true safety concern).

 

[Stubby]

The real harm is in less people switching from smoking because e-liquid doesn't 'do it'.

Plus, WTA is more satient, so less consumed.

And to push it a bit, who's to say that nic alone is unbalancing some people in a way that WTA would not?

I agree, in fact it's very likely that whole tobacco alkaloids (so that's what WTA means) are more addictive then nicotine alone. That's also the reason it would be more effective in getting people off the cigarettes. You likely can't have one without the other.


Its ether "quit of die" or reduced harm, and that includes long term use of WTA based products. With somewhere around a 99% reduced risk factor the choice is a no-brainer for me. I would guess that when the idea of reduced harm gets better known to the public a whole lot of other people will agree.

Edit: vaping would be only one way of using WTA's. Some people may miss the oral fixation aspect of it, but other ways of getting it into our system may actually be safer: as in dissolvables or some type of snus like pouch that could be made as small or smaller then a mini. This could take many forms.

 

[kinabaloo]

I agree, in fact it's very likely that whole tobacco alkaloids (so that's what WTA means) are more addictive then nicotine alone. That's also the reason it would be more effective in getting people off the cigarettes. You likely can't have one without the other.

Said exactly that earlier.

Its ether "quit of die" or reduced harm, and that includes long term use of WTA based products. With somewhere around a 99% reduced risk factor the choice is a no-brainer for me. I would guess that when the idea of reduced harm gets better known to the public a whole lot of other people will agree.

Might win the legal battle (hopefully only initially) but can't win the argument. And they know it. So we might end up with an inneffective fudge. (Though that wuld really open up the black market)

 

[Elf]

DVap,

I have been a silent unregistered forum lurker for a while, and have been very keenly following this thread. I believe I am one of those people who could benefit greatly from WTA liquid, and by what I have seen around here, many others would as well. Is this liquid something that can only be safely made by someone of your chemistry knowledge, skills, and with expensive equipment? Or is this something that perhaps a careful individual could recreate with the appropriate "recipe"?

I can not smoke anymore, and this feeling of "missing" something big with vaping drives me crazy, worse every day.

Thank you for all your hard effort and discoveries that you have shared with us. I really do believe it is just about priceless.

 

[kinabaloo]

It wasn't only DVap who put these ideas together. I wrote a long article (actually two) abut the importance of the other alkaloids before, but it was 'ignored' then and has never been acknowledged (by certain people).

October 30th: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...bsorption-addictiveness-maois.html#post683086

"Originally Posted by olderthandirt :
Perhaps I missed it here or in other related threads. Are MAOI's an additive to cigarette tobacco or a naturally occurring component of tobacco?
Have to give you a 'from memory' answer atm: at least some are naturally occuring alkaloids in tobacco. Not sure if any are added. I've looked into a few possibilities that could work as additives but not found anything suitable so far - the molecules are too big with a high or non-existant boiling point. Those in tobacco that are alkaloids might be vapable or might just get carried along on smoke particles. Nicotine is another type of alkaloid, so there may be some MAOIs (of alkaloid type at least) that may be vaporisable.

The biochemistry is complex; there are different types of MAOI that affect, to different degrees, various messengers in the brain. That is, in psychoactive terms, they would produce different effects (some more relaxing, some more stimulating; though more complex than a single axis as in this example).

Basically, the combination of nicorine and MAOI makes the effect more dramatic - faster and stronger - and has been likened to the effect of amphetamines, but milder.

MAOIs are not necessarily dramatic in effect; if i'm not mistaken, catechins are a type of MAOI (have the MAO inhibition effect); these are found in tea, and have a pleasant effect that is both relaxing and stimulating."​

If one were to list all the psychoactive components in chocolate, many will yell 'ban it!'. I have tried to convey that WTA is not something to be scared of, it's what we have been used to all these years, but without all the other stuff and combustion products found in analog smoke. In the end, WTA will be safer in the bigger picture because it is more effective. I don't want to go trying to identify key elements to make a tweaked version of WTA - that kind of thinking is what got us to the nic only situation; without good reason to remove a particular alkaloid, let's try to keep the mix as it is.

Yes, I hope a simpler method, even if not so 'clean', can be devised by someone. Something better than just soaking snus or tobacco and vaping that (which quite a few already do, in rder to get something that satisfies). And if possible, avoiding any phase where there is a concentrated solution of the alkaloids.

 

[IANAN]

In the US most Anti-Smoking groups have always rejected the concept of reduced harm tobacco. This is besides the fact that tobacco does have therapeutic properties and the treatment of allergic asthma was one of it's original uses.

Current US policy is not to talk about reduced harm products and all tobacco is from the devil. When US tobacco companies produced "smoke-free" cigarettes in the late 80's the FDAs stance, pushed by the Anti-Smoking groups, was to try to have tobacco regulated as a drug and to have these products removed from the market.

 

[kinabaloo]

In the US most Anti-Smoking groups have always rejected the concept of reduced harm tobacco. This is besides the fact that tobacco does have therapeutic properties and the treatment of allergic asthma was one of it's original uses.

Current US policy is not to talk about reduced harm products and all tobacco is from the devil. When US tobacco companies produced "smoke-free" cigarettes in the late 80's the FDAs stance, pushed by the Anti-Smoking groups, was to try to have tobacco regulated as a drug and to have these products removed from the market.

Fear of litigation too kept innovation from becoming reality. E-cigs could have been a reality decades ago (though would have been a bit chunky given battery technology back then). One can point the finger at 'politics' as much as the tobacco producers for the millions dead over those years. Is history going to repeat itself?

 

[DVap]

DVap,

I have been a silent unregistered forum lurker for a while, and have been very keenly following this thread. I believe I am one of those people who could benefit greatly from WTA liquid, and by what I have seen around here, many others would as well. Is this liquid something that can only be safely made by someone of your chemistry knowledge, skills, and with expensive equipment? Or is this something that perhaps a careful individual could recreate with the appropriate "recipe"?

I can not smoke anymore, and this feeling of "missing" something big with vaping drives me crazy, worse every day.

Thank you for all your hard effort and discoveries that you have shared with us. I really do believe it is just about priceless.

As it stands, I believe it would take a trained individual to pull it off. By "pull it off", I mean being able to isolate the alkaloid spread from the rest of the matrix, remove any trace of organic solvent, competently handle the waste materials, safely handle the concentrated alkaloids, and evaluate the resultant material for overall purity.

To use a bad analogy, I suppose I could try to run 200+ MPH on the track at Daytona for a couple hours in traffic, but I'm very likely to crash despite my best effort.

kin's been hammering on the "something missing" for quite awhile and many folks have seen it for themselves that e-liquid has "something missing". I simply connected the dots that were already out there to conclude that whatever is missing could be gotten via not refining tobacco quite so far as is the norm, the "whole tobacco alkaloid" approach. Being a career chemist simply gave me the means to take the next step and do it.

 

[kinabaloo]

Connecting the dots was a big step too. I was nearly there, but DVap got that last piece in place.

I'm really tired atm; what started as an idea for a quick msg developed into 6 hours (writing the chocolate/love thing about endorphins), and then all the usual work.

I'll feel better after a good sleep.