So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[olderthandirt]

The article 'On love and chocolate - the relaxing, stress-relieving side of alkaloids' is now here:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ress-relieving-side-alkaloids.html#post721774

And includes a novel thought on the nature of our 'addiction'.

Good read kin, In following this thread I'm actually getting to a point where I can follow a lot of what I'm reading. I've mentioned couple of times the combination of chocolate and chili's. I was really surprised the concept wasn't more familiar here. Your footnote:
" * Interestingly, capsaicum can release endorphins too, perhaps via pain response."

validates my fondness for chili/chocolate blends. It is a quick fix for 'da blues! Several recipes can be found for candies and desserts using the two. Manufactured candy bars are also available in a few places.

I said early on that marketing and manf. of WTA could be a monster DVap. Very sobering points are brought up with respect to potential hazards of "blackmarket" manufacture. If you truly have no interest in monetary gain for yourselves, how might this concept of WTA be communicated to a reliable manufacturer so the rest of the vaping world could benefit?

And with snus in lip, 48mg in PV he resumes his lurking state...

 

[olderthandirt]

Every time I see this picture I want to bust out laughing.... Where did you get it?

Found the lurk kitty on Photobucket IANAN, if you right-click on the pic, "Save Image As" it's yours to use and abuse as well!

 

[frankie1]

I wonder if a company like JC would be interested or DeKang? After all, wouldn't it be less expensive to the manufacturer to remove LESS alkaloids? Would it save a step in the manufacturing process?

 

[frankie1]

Dvap: I wonder also, how long these other alkaloids might remain active in the body/brain? It seems people are OK initially and even purport to be highly satisfied with the occasional smoke or none at all. This was my experience. It was over time (3-4 weeks) that the urge to smoke more often hit me. I have also noticed that some who have totally quit report the urge to smoke hits them...later. I thought originally that this was just due to the novelty of the PV experience, but now I wonder if the other alkaloids could be remaining in the body and dissipating over time...much like alcohol does?

 

[Vaporer]

JC purchases thier nic from a company. Its named in another thread as they claimed "tobacco free". Totally synthetic nic is to expensive to create and sell at .30 - .50 a ml already mixed. Of course as I explained to them, "tobacco free" and containing nicotine isn't actually a lie. Tobacco is way more than nicotine, even if extracted from tobacco. Most would have said "derived from tobacco" but they want a wide stance to keep out of the FDA radar.

Most nicotine in eliquid comes from China afaik, and producing the WTA would or should be less cost than a pure nicotine extracton. But I can't make that statment with 100% assurance.

As far as risk with WTA, my feelings are it's an extract of the same tobacco used in analogs that are approved, but with less risk from additives and combustion.
This seems simple to us as an answer, but throws the world of the gov, FDA and anti-smoking groups into a tizzy as something else to deal with.
In reality, on a level field, only the FDA should have a concern as to the purity of the content. Period. The contents are already approved in analogs. The anti-smoking zealots are camping on my right to choose while the gov is just protecting thier income from the big lobbyers of BT & BP.

So, there's the flip side of DVaps triangle, Gov, FDA, Anti-smoking.

 

[Ghostsamurai25]

I know Im getting nic when I hit my pen, 36ml or 24ml, I get this weird head feeling like Im going to be dizzy if I hit it too much, love it.
I have to say though that at times I do miss the dirty feeling I would get from toking on an analog cig, but its short lived. About once a week ill smoke an analog and it reminds me of how much I hate the nasty hot steam that goes down my throat. If my memory wasnt so bad I would remember not to smoke them once a week from my lastweeks experience lol. Anyways yea there is a difference between vap and analog which isnt a nic thing, its more the lack of all the other chems we no longer receive from the analog cig, keep in mind it has over 1400 chems in it which is bound to make a major difference in the smoke.

 

[kinabaloo]

As far as risk with WTA, my feelings are it's an extract of the same tobacco used in analogs that are approved, but with less risk from additives and combustion.
This seems simple to us as an answer, but throws the world of the gov, FDA and anti-smoking groups into a tizzy as something else to deal with.
In reality, on a level field, only the FDA should have a concern as to the purity of the content. Period. The contents are already approved in analogs. The anti-smoking zealots are camping on my right to choose while the gov is just protecting thier income from the big lobbyers of BT & BP.

So, there's the flip side of DVaps triangle, Gov, FDA, Anti-smoking.

Agree on all points. On the regulation angle, that's always been my stance; enter 'nicotine' or 'WTA', same.

But I feel strong antipathy to this "So, there's the flip side of DVaps triangle, Gov, FDA, Anti-smoking". Because "As far as risk with WTA, my feelings are it's an extract of the same tobacco used in analogs that are approved, but with less risk from additives and combustion."

So why are we talking ourselves into there being a problem? 'Hey FDA, you got a big problem here, lot's of unknown alkaloids with long names'. Since when did anyone worry about alkaloid content, start hallucinating or get violent or whatever from smoking. Please, let's stop this.

Even if WTA were a little bit more toxic - and that's a big if - it is still FAR less toxic than snus or snus soak; and FAR FAR less toxic than smoke. When take into account the ability of WTA to get more people off smoke, it's a no-brainer. In any case, from 100% of the testing sample (n=2 admittedly) WTA will likely be consumed in lower quantities because we are no longer puffing to get what isn't there.

So much doom and gloom about something so positive!

 

[kinabaloo]

I wonder also, how long these other alkaloids might remain active in the body/brain? It seems people are OK initially and even purport to be highly satisfied with the occasional smoke or none at all. This was my experience. It was over time (3-4 weeks) that the urge to smoke more often hit me. I have also noticed that some who have totally quit report the urge to smoke hits them...later. I thought originally that this was just due to the novelty of the PV experience, but now I wonder if the other alkaloids could be remaining in the body and dissipating over time...much like alcohol does?

I'm not aware of any alkaloids being so long lasting. This is likely the timeframe for the body readjusting (for example, receptor count).

WTA is probably a step in the process for extracting just nicotine.

 

[Vaporer]

frankie1,
I'd attribute that to the psychological and oral fixation part of the addiction.
Your brain has yrs of this routine imprinted and certain things trigger these responses.
Your brain has it stored as something very familiar and common, but is not always aware due to all the thought processes.
Then , somethings triggers the memory, the imprnt is now ran like a movie of something you did and enjoyed. Other mental processes are likely in effect now wanting the pleasure state back.
So , the craving hits.

Just my opinion.

 

[kinabaloo]

Found the lurk kitty on Photobucket IANAN, if you right-click on the pic, "Save Image As" it's yours to use and abuse as well!

I too am a big chilli consumer (grow them too). Yes, there was a comment very recently about how many people use chocolate flavor vape juice - wouldn't be any of the endorphin trigger in there (?) but it's possible that there is a slight Pavlovian effect (like how artificial sweeteners can trigger storage of triglycerides).

I don't know if you have heard of tea over there (a leaf infusion), but it's a commom drink here and the rest of thw world, like cola over there i guess; nobody fears that it contains MAOIs either.

 

[kinabaloo]

Btw, better say what an alkaloid is.

Not a very well defined term. The -oid just means 'resemble (in shape)'; in the way we say 'cuboid' or 'humanoid'. The alk- root is a contraction of alkaline (or 'basic' as opposed to acidic).

Organic compounds that have a basic nitrogen atom (one with electron lone pairs) are called amines and the term alkaloid is usually reserved for amines found naturally in plants.

Alkaloids, like other inorganic compounds, often involve a 6-carbon ring (compounds that include this benzene ring arrangement are denoted as 'aromatic' as opposed to 'aliphatic').

~~~

DVap - might it be worth removing any alkaloids that are non-volatile in freebase form (those containing oxygen?) from the final alkaloid mix, by say slow vaporisation and recondensing in an inert atmosphere? Few alkaloids are liquid at room temperature.

Most alkaloids decompose easily on heating (so the loss of the other alkaloids is likely substantial as with nicotine; but post heating the profile would resemble that gained from smoking tobacco; might be different if switched to misting the e-liquid).

Most alkaloids are colorless; however these have color:
Colchicine and berberine are yellow.
Canadine is orange.

(The salts of sanguinarine are copper-red.)

 

[Elf]

My apologies if anyone felt I ignored their contribution here. Kinabaloo, I know you and others have all made very significant contributions to this puzzle, and I am grateful to all of you for taking the time and effort to work together on this. I know this was a combined effort, and while my post was not intended for the purpose of saying thank you to everyone, I certainly did also not intend for anyone to feel their contributions were either unimportant or unappreciated.

To explain the motivation of my post, my original reply here was sparked by the fact that DVap seems to have actually created a liquid that contains the missing elements that keep me up very late at night with cravings that won't let go. I am driven mad each and every day with a longing, craving, for something that is just not there in my liquid.

The fact that someone has now managed to find that missing something, and capture it in a liquid, makes me scream inside "Where can I get this? or if I can't get it, How can I make this? I NEED this!" If there were a way I could order this, I would. If there were a way I could make this, somehow, anyhow, I would.

By the sound of it, both of these are out of my grasp, but you must understand the cravings are such that I simply had to ask. If there were even a remote chance to get or make this, I had to try. I do wish this were not the case - that I could blissfully ignore the WTAs and not know any better, but the fact is I can't, nomatter how hard I try. It's an awful feeling. I would do almost anything to get my hands on something like that to ease the suffering.

Nonetheless, I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to this, even if this does not lead to relief for me. I remain hopeful that somehow this can eventually be turned into something I would be able to use myself to make these demons go away.

Thank you, Everyone.

 

[Stubby]

Hello Elf: Many people who have the same issues as you, including many on this thread have been using Swedish snus to kill the demons. It does a very good job of it and makes an excellent supplement to vaping. Until a WTA e-liquid comes on the market it's likely the best way to go.

Now I'm off to cash my check from Swedish Match. This one's a nice one to.

 

[exogenesis]

Thanks very much for the feedback on this Mr Guineapig
very much glad to hear there's no immediate untoward strong effects
beyond the satisfaction.

Seems the desire for the missing factor(s) that many people have been theorising
about for a long time have -probably- seen the light of day in DVap's extract.

So question is, would you feel safe vaping this for a long(er) period,
or is there any doubt in the back of your mind about safety ?
(also does the 'physical' effect mentioned manifest itself?)


Thinking it wouldn't actually cost too much to set up a smallish
scale production 'facility' with all the safety equipment, correct solvents
& reagents.

Wouldn't like to try to explain to HSE (UK) inspectors what my proof of
a safe-product is, if it was sold publicly, but as a 'research product only'
supply to interested parties I guess it could be done.

I guess the greatest cost might be waste toxic-chlorinated solvent
removal & handling.

 

[kinabaloo]

wasting my time

 

[exogenesis]

Interesting link to non chorine-solvent extraction methods there Kin,
DVap would be far more qualified to comment on any comparison with his
method, as far as expected quality/purity of result is concerned.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Mercy, mercy, my eyes are starting to bleed from all the catch-up. So many replies I wanted to make as I read. Unfortunately, each successive one captured its own place in my peanut brain and now everything's mashed together...back to just drooling. Eurika..(drool)...Marketing...(drool)...FDA...(drool)...Another report from kin...(drool, drool)...Thread generating attention...(drool)...... BUT, while I try to separate this goo and contemplate ( OTD, pass the 48....Nah, this one might call for 75) I'd like to say I'm no less excited than a cat covered in gravy at a dog show 8-o. . Come on, Igor.

 

[kinabaloo]

An easily evaporated non-polar is required. How about 'liquid parafin' (liquid weight alkanes; 'kerosene'). A problem might be impurities as it is refined only sufficiently for use as a fuel. But pharma parafin should be available, perhaps as a wax that would require melting.

btw, it might be worth separating the useful, volatile alkaloids from the non-volatile. Not been able to find what the decomp products would be, unlikely to be psychoactive though, so might as well remove them before vaping.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

kurt, I also noticed in another thread how you speculated the sweetness of our liquids may be the cause for the reported loss of appetite/weight loss. I had the same assumption as I had been concerned about weight gain, originally. I'm 5'6" @ 140, not too big, but one of the jobs I do is confined space entry and rescue, sorta like a civilian tunnel rat. I do gain weight easily and I'm a snacker, but need to maintain 130-140#. Vaping has made life easier in that respect, so while going home last night I got to thinking about Dvap's description of the WTA's tobacco taste (mmmmm) and, though not a strong one, wondered if it could have the opposite effect on appetite. The reason I bring this up is because appetite and hunger are not the same (I thought I just heard you say "Duh") and, in my case I used to snack pretty heavy before bed in a subconsious (spell check still on the fritz) effort to displace the stale mouth syndrome. I wonder if WTA brings that back? Not an important guestion, but, while filtering through said "goo", it seemed to be my first coherent thought. As a matter of fact, my further inquiry into the subject matter of this post tells me I've gone down one of those endless trails in my mind, again, nobody will know as long as I don't push the ENTER .........

 

[Vaporer]

Twisted,
Most people gain weight after quitting smoking. I did through my many attempts over the years of trying. I think it comes from the anxiety, stress as a way to cover those symptoms, we eat. Chocolate, here we go again....is always a biggie in the snacks. Maybe a subconsious message being sent to the ol brain.
When a medication for stress, depression was removed I gained weight too. I ate more to, not because I was hungry or it sounded good at the time. It just seemed like the thing to do.
When people quit smoking its not uncommon to gain 10-20lbs pretty fast. Oddly enough they will lose i most of the time when they resume the analogs. Some don'tt. Maybe a new habit formed.
My daughter said when we were first discussing e cigs, flavors and satisfaction said she thought they might help with weight problems too. She is an Occupational Therapist working with children.