So cert organic eliquid is bad. Can someone please explain why?

[Mazinny]

Organic food is a conventional food crop (genetically exactly the same plant variety as the regular version) but grown according to a different set of standards. In this sense, organic food is really the same thing as kosher food. The food itself is identical, but it's prepared in such a way to conform to different philosophical standards. Just as kosher standards are defined by rabbinical authorities, the USDA's National Organic Program sets the requirements for foods to bear a "certified organic" label. Basically it forbids the use of modern synthetic fertilizers and pesticides in favor of organic equivalents, and for animals it requires that they have not been kept healthy through the use of antibiotics. There are other rules too, and the basic goal is to require the use of only natural products throughout the growth, preparation, and preservation stages.

When you take the exact same strain of a plant and grow it in two different ways, its chemical and genetic makeup remain the same. One may be larger than the other if one growing method was more efficient, but its fundamental makeup and biochemical content is defined by its genes, not by the way it was grown. Consumer Reports found no consistent difference in appearance, flavor, or texture.

Now, how does this relate to e-liquids. Just curious to know. Does the term "organic" mean something different than the above as it relates to e-liquids ?

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

Organic food is a conventional food crop (genetically exactly the same plant variety as the regular version) but grown according to a different set of standards. In this sense, organic food is really the same thing as kosher food. The food itself is identical, but it's prepared in such a way to conform to different philosophical standards. Just as kosher standards are defined by rabbinical authorities, the USDA's National Organic Program sets the requirements for foods to bear a "certified organic" label. Basically it forbids the use of modern synthetic fertilizers and pesticides in favor of organic equivalents, and for animals it requires that they have not been kept healthy through the use of antibiotics. There are other rules too, and the basic goal is to require the use of only natural products throughout the growth, preparation, and preservation stages.

When you take the exact same strain of a plant and grow it in two different ways, its chemical and genetic makeup remain the same. One may be larger than the other if one growing method was more efficient, but its fundamental makeup and biochemical content is defined by its genes, not by the way it was grown. Consumer Reports found no consistent difference in appearance, flavor, or texture.

Now, how does this relate to e-liquids. Just curious to know. Does the term "organic" mean something different than the above as it relates to e-liquids ?

The term organic in eliquids I've noticed to mean its real flavorings from real fruits, not chemically made (Artificial) flavors.

 

[Mazinny]

The term organic in eliquids I've noticed to mean its real flavorings from real fruits, not chemically made (Artificial) flavors.

so shouldn't the term be natural, rather than organic ? or are you telling me the fruits themselves are grown organically as well ? What about non-fruit flavors ?

 

[amolson]

The term organic in eliquids I've noticed to mean its real flavorings from real fruits, not chemically made (Artificial) flavors.

Yes, this has been my experience at least. Organic in reference to ejuice seems to mean it came from living plant matter (raised organically), not petrochemicals.

And for extracts, yes, I would prefer plants that were grown without petrochemical based pesticides, because just about anything is going to get concentrated when they make extracts. Rather like other toxins collecting in animals high on the food chain.

So the two go together, if not deliberately.

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

Yes, this has been my experience at least. Organic in reference to ejuice seems to mean it came from living plant matter (raised organically), not petrochemicals.

And for extracts, yes, I would prefer plants that were grown without petrochemical based pesticides, because just about anything is going to get concentrated when they make extracts. Rather like other toxins collecting in animals high on the food chain.

So the two go together, if not deliberately.

That's exactly my thoughts as well.

 

[Porksmuggler]

so shouldn't the term be natural, rather than organic ? or are you telling me the fruits themselves are grown organically as well ? What about non-fruit flavors ?

The OP is attempting to confine the discussion to certified organic eliquid. The issue is the chemistry of the eliquid is the important part, not the chemistry of the sources. The organic compounds in the eliquid, whether from natural or artificial flavoring, need to be identified by real chemist.

Vendors like Virgin Vapor, specifically in their FAQ, take great pride that their eliquids use certified organic natural flavors, and even have statements that suggest artificial flavors are less safe, which is irresponsible.

Facts About Natural And Artificial Flavors - Business Insider

 

[Nermal]

I'd be willing to bet that some organic eliquid is safer that some, well, manmade eliquid.

 

[Mazinny]

Yes, this has been my experience at least. Organic in reference to ejuice seems to mean it came from living plant matter (raised organically), not petrochemicals.

And for extracts, yes, I would prefer plants that were grown without petrochemical based pesticides, because just about anything is going to get concentrated when they make extracts. Rather like other toxins collecting in animals high on the food chain.

So the two go together, if not deliberately.

by that logic, wouldn't organic pesticides that could be toxic and/or poisonous in higher concentrations, be problematic as well ?

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

I'd be willing to bet that some organic eliquid is safer that some, well, manmade eliquid.

I don't doubt this. Some things are safely consumed by digesting, but inhaling is a different ball game. Honestly, we just don't know. Natural or organic doesn't always mean safe or safer either. It would be nice to see some real unbiased studies on this and other vaping concerns.

I'm a chemist, but my area of expertise is not flavorings or foods. My area is biological and nuclear.

 

[Mazinny]

The OP is attempting to confine the discussion to certified organic eliquid. The issue is the chemistry of the eliquid is the important part, not the chemistry of the sources. The organic compounds in the eliquid, whether from natural or artificial flavoring, need to be identified by real chemist.

Vendors like Virgin Vapor, specifically in their FAQ, take great pride that their eliquids use certified organic natural flavors, and even have statements that suggest artificial flavors are less safe, which is irresponsible.

Facts About Natural And Artificial Flavors - Business Insider

so basically certified organic e-liquids are a subset of e-liquids that get their flavor from natural chemicals ?

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

so basically certified organic e-liquids are a subset of e-liquids that get their flavor from natural chemicals ?

It's possible. This is why you should know your vendor, ask questions and dissect what terms each vendor is using.

 

[Mazinny]

It's possible. This is why you should know your vendor, ask questions and dissect what terms each vendor is using.

The problem is, i don't even know what i'm looking for as far as safety goes. I know for a fact that inhaling diacetyl is harmful, i don't know anything else as fact. Organic, natural, artificial etc ... all could be safe or harmful depending on type, dosage, manner of production ...

We just don't know, i believe.

 

[Porksmuggler]

so basically certified organic e-liquids are a subset of e-liquids that get their flavor from natural chemicals ?

Certified organic is a subset of natural flavoring. You can have a natural flavoring that isn't certified organic. Natural chemicals aren't a thing. There's organic and inorganic chemistry, that's it.

The organic/natural movement tells consumers that artificial is bad. Virgin Vapor, is likely making a fair profit from the label, though from the FAQ, I assume they believe it too.

The biggest issue with natural flavors in my mind is that artificial flavorings typically consist of fewer organic compounds, just the ones needed to impart the taste. They can be documented rather easily like The Flavor Apprentice has with MSDS. At some point research will be done to determine which organic compounds in these artificial flavors are safe for inhalation.

Now, then what of natural flavors? What do you think the odds are that the 10 or 100 fold more organic compounds in a natural flavor will all be safe for inhalation?

 

[Mazinny]

Certified organic is a subset of natural flavoring. You can have a natural flavoring that isn't certified organic. Natural chemicals aren't a thing. There's organic and inorganic chemistry, that's it.

The organic/natural movement tells consumers that artificial is bad. Virgin Vapor, is likely making a fair profit from the label, though from the FAQ, I assume they believe it too.

The biggest issue in my mind is that artificial flavorings typically consist of fewer organic compounds, just the ones needed to impart the taste. They can be documented rather easily like The Flavor Apprentice has with MSDS. At some point research will be done to determine which organic compounds in these artificial flavors are safe for inhalation.

Now, then what of natural flavors? What do you think the odds are that the 10 or 100 fold more organic compounds in a natural flavor will all be safe for inhalation?

By natural chemicals, i meant chemicals that exist in nature, rather than made in a lab. I am not for or against organic, natural, artificial etc... I am for scientifically proven safe !

Now, as far as food goes, my belief is that organic is not any safer than conventional, and in fact might be a little more unsafe as far as salmonella, e-coli etc...

As for e-liquid, i just don't know.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

Out of the 27,000+ certified organic operations I haven't been able to find a single one that produces e liquid.
Business's that sell / produce certified organic products are required to provide their certification number upon request.

So, what vendors sell / produce certified organic e liquids?
Cert #?

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

By natural chemicals, i meant chemicals that exist in nature, rather than made in a lab. I am not for or against organic, natural, artificial etc... I am for scientifically proven safe !

Now, as far as food goes, my belief is that organic is not any safer than conventional, and in fact might be a little more unsafe as far as salmonella, e-coli etc...

As for e-liquid, i just don't know.

You'll have to wait on future studies for that unfortunately. One thing I do know, I smoked for over 20 years and cigarettes have over 2000 harmful toxins. I know vaping is at least 99% safer. I've noticed huge improvements in my health and i can breathe while climbing stairs.

Since all the FDA concerns and regulations is happening now, we will soon see a lot of studies pop up. Most will be biased to suit the needs of whoever funded the study but some will be real eye openers I'm sure.

 

[amolson]

by that logic, wouldn't organic pesticides that could be toxic and/or poisonous in higher concentrations, be problematic as well ?

Uh, like nicotine? Sorry, I couldn't help myself. But the reality is most organic pesticides have much, much shorter lifespan than petrochemical based ones. So yeah, there probably are some.

But there are basically three options (and combinations of the three). Organic in the sense of both the source material and how it's raised, organic in the sense of being derived from plants and artificial in the sense of containing no plant derived flavoring.

Since I like the flavor of the plant derived flavors, if I have a choice, I'll take the organic raised as well. I know the plant derived flavors aren't totally safe (nothing is) but given I prefer them, I'll pick the safer option.

But yeah, the organic probably aren't as safe. That is if something isn't discovered to be instantly deadly in any concentration used in artificial flavors. In which case it swaps, because of the higher concentrations of individual components in artificial flavorings.

So six of one, half a dozen of the other. Ya pays yer money and takes yer chances. For me, with those odds, I'll take the stuff that tastes better.

 

[Porksmuggler]

By natural chemicals, i meant chemicals that exist in nature, rather than made in a lab. I am not for or against organic, natural, artificial etc... I am for scientifically proven safe !

This is where understanding the chemistry becomes critical. The organic compounds in natural and artificial flavors are the same. Of even greater importance, wherein an artificial flavoring a chemist specifically chooses the organic compounds, a natural flavoring does not have the same luxury. Even for oral consumption, there are studies that indicate natural flavorings contain more impurities, have poorer consistency, and artificial flavorings undergo more testing.

I DIY, and will occasionally use a natural flavoring, but I do so knowing the likelihood is that there will be a greater number of unwanted organic compounds that increase the risk of inhalation.

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

This is where understanding the chemistry becomes critical. The organic compounds in natural and artificial flavors are the same. Of even greater importance, wherein an artificial flavoring a chemist specifically chooses the organic compounds, a natural flavoring does not have the same luxury. Even for oral consumption, there are studies that indicate natural flavorings contain more impurities, have poorer consistency, and artificial flavorings undergo more testing.

I DIY, and will occasionally use a natural flavoring, but I do so knowing the likelihood is that there will be a greater number of unwanted organic compounds that increase the risk of inhalation.

This and when combining any chemicals be it artificial or organic it could produce a new chemical (which could be harmful). Diacetyl is an example of this.

 

[amolson]

I am for scientifically proven safe !

There is no such thing. Never will be. Have you heard of the Facts About Dihydrogen Monoxide?