EU So the 20mg/ml 10 ml bottles thing...

[Geiri]

Does this mean you can't get DIY liquids anymore? I mean no point really if all you can get is small bottles of just 20 mg strength.

 

[Troll from behind]

VG and PG won't be going anywhere and neither do flavourings, they just because something to spice your drinks with, for example or to be used with cooking.
The real question is how much is the price per ml going to be.
I don't think they be as cheap as the nic is now, though.

 

[mamamia]

The fact of the matter is: YES also DIY bases will have to be bought in 10ml bottles, and the max. strength will be 20mg/ml -- no matter if it's a readymade liquid or just base.

 

[Jorge22]

That's true for nic bases. But not true for PG and VG, which you can get from the pharmacist. Having said that, yes, unless one's vaping 0 mg or very low nicotine (sub-ohmers may be alright) DIY becomes somewhat pointless.

 

[sofarsogood]

That's true for nic bases. But not true for PG and VG, which you can get from the pharmacist. Having said that, yes, unless one's vaping 0 mg or very low nicotine (sub-ohmers may be alright) DIY becomes somewhat pointless.

For their to be liquid to buy in 10 ml bottles some one will be doing the mixing and bottling. Where will they get their nic and how will they get the permissions?

 

[Jorge22]

I'm not sure I understand your question but nicotine containing juices are supposed to still be available. The same can be said about nic bases with a limit of 20 mg (that's why DIY becomes redundant for most). I think one may be able to get nic in higer levels with a medical prescription. Of course, all in ridiculous 10 ml bottles. Or do you mean juice manufacturers? In that case, they'll get their permissions from the government.

 

[sofarsogood]

I'm not sure I understand your question but nicotine containing juices are supposed to still be available. The same can be said about nic bases with a limit of 20 mg (that's why DIY becomes redundant for most). I think one may be able to get nic in higer levels with a medical prescription. Of course, all in ridiculous 10 ml bottles. Or do you mean juice manufacturers? In that case, they'll get their permissions from the government.

What is the requirement for being a juice manufacturer? What will be the regulations for acquiring concentrated nic for mixing? Making e liquid is trivally easy, I made about 300 ml this afternoon for my personal use. How much should I charge myself for this? There could be thousands of entities wanting to mix e liquid. Who decides who gets to do that and who doesn't? How often does the nicotine inspector show up to verify the nicotine supply? What if some comes up missing. How long will the prison sentence be for missing nicotine? These would be fascinating details that must be in place by now if these rules go into force in just a few months.

Perhaps the national governments who are supposed to implement these rule have yet to create the enforcement mechanisms or hire people to do that work. Have you looked into that part? Does the EU have a private police force to do it if the national government simply does not? What would be the punishment for a government that drags its feet?

 

[cllmda]

What is the requirement for being a juice manufacturer? What will be the regulations for acquiring concentrated nic for mixing? Making e liquid is trivally easy, I made about 300 ml this afternoon for my personal use. How much should I charge myself for this? There could be thousands of entities wanting to mix e liquid. Who decides who gets to do that and who doesn't? How often does the nicotine inspector show up to verify the nicotine supply? What if some comes up missing. How long will the prison sentence be for missing nicotine? These would be fascinating details that must be in place by now if these rules go into force in just a few months.

Perhaps the national governments who are supposed to implement these rule have yet to create the enforcement mechanisms or hire people to do that work. Have you looked into that part? Does the EU have a private police force to do it if the national government simply does not? What would be the punishment for a government that drags its feet?

Juice manufacturers will have to submit full lab reports and an authorization request for EVERY flavored juice and for EVERY NIC %...
(= for ex, one authorization for "Pear" 3mg, another authorization for "Pear" 6mg etc.etc. I think one will be required for "Pear 0mg" too,but not sure on that...)

Naturally, each "authorization request" costs a certain fee, which I believe is up to each individual country to establish,some will ask for more than others but It will probably turn out to be quite expensive anyway....

result =most juice manufacturers will go out of business or drastically reduce the amount of flavors and Nic % available .
Only the "larger" companies will be able to foot these kind of costs....

It will be up to each individual country to decide "how" and "if" they wish to enforce all this.

And No ,the EU doesnt send in a special militia or enforcement group lol

 

[sofarsogood]

[QUOTE="cllmda, post: 17183884, member: 57016"
Only the "larger" companies will be able to foot these kind of costs....
It will be up to each individual country to decide "how" and "if" they wish to enforce all this.
And No ,the EU doesnt send in a special militia or enforcement group lol [/QUOTE]Well then it gets down to national politics afterall? I have been reading things that say the individuals nations are somehow complelled to implement these rules if not what's the fuss about?

Unless you've left something out the approval process is a tiny fraction of what the FDA seems to want. The EU restrictions I've read about tank and bottle sizes are frivolous and disruptive for no good purpose except angling for taxation. I bet a lot of nations find reasoons to procrastinate on this because there is no big pot of money to plunder when restrictions are imposed. Governments will create a lot of enemies for not much money.

 

[Jorge22]

You just hit the nail: "enemies for not much money". But I don't think they're proscratinating. In Portugal, for instance, you have a tax of 0.60 € per ml of nicotine containing juices, which is preposterous and can only have been dreamed by people who don't have a clue about vaping. And, from May on, online sales will be banned, both in Portugal and from other countries (or maybe it's from January on but most vendors aren't complying yet, not really sure). This legislation comes from the previous government that aligned with the most radical/more conservative EU countries. There's a new government now and I've actually written to both the prime minister and a representative from his party who's a vaper about it, let's see what happens. Thing is even though Art. 20 of the TPD allows these measures, namely when it considers as a tobacco product something which doesn't contain tobacco and isn't used in the same way as tobacco, it doesn't require them and as I see it there's no point in them except clearly benefiting tobacco companies.

 

[sofarsogood]

You just hit the nail: "enemies for not much money". But I don't think they're proscratinating. In Portugal, for instance, you have a tax of 0.60 € per ml of nicotine containing juices, which is preposterous and can only have been dreamed by people who don't have a clue about vaping. And, from May on, online sales will be banned, both in Portugal and from other countries (or maybe it's from January on but most vendors aren't complying yet, not really sure). This legislation comes from the previous government that aligned with the most radical/more conservative EU countries. There's a new government now and I've actually written to both the prime minister and a representative from his party who's a vaper about it, let's see what happens. Thing is even though Art. 20 of the TPD allows these measures, namely when it considers as a tobacco product something which doesn't contain tobacco and isn't used in the same way as tobacco, it doesn't require them and as I see it there's no point in them except clearly benefiting tobacco companies.

One possibility, however remote, is that we have more friends in government than we know about. It's not common to see government departments arguing with each other in public but there have to be some disagreements about vaping in government that run as deep as outside of government. That is a lot more on the surface in Malaysia. New stories from there are fun to read. The EU rules are nothing but interference with people switching. The same is true in the US.

 

[prospero]

Taking a positive view -

The future situation in the UK may not be as bad as many make it out to be. As regards ready made eliquids or devices from the point of view of manufacturers, the regulations do appear somewhat onerous. But I am a DIY'er (juices and mods) and my only concern is about the future availability of 72mg nic base. VG,PG and flavours are not an issue as has already been stated, they are commonly available ingredients. But although I hold out positive hope I am stocking up on nic base!

In the article - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/proposals-for-uk-law-on-the-advertising-of-e-cigarettes/article-205-tobacco-products-directive-proposals-for-uk-law
Read below the heading 'The UK government’s plans', it is stated that the UK will take the narrowest possible interpretation of the regulations, e.g. the term 'publication', which will apply to newspapers, periodical and magazines but not to 'leaflets' and 'posters', as per case law.

More interesting is the draft UK legislation - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/440989/SI_tobacco_products_acc.pdf
The key paragraph is -
36.—(1) No person may produce or supply an electronic cigarette or a refill container which contains a nicotine-containing liquid unless it complies with paragraphs (2) to (11).
(2) The nicotine-containing liquid must be in—
(a) a dedicated refill container not exceeding a volume of 10 millilitres;
(b) a disposable electronic cigarette; or
(c) a single use cartridge where the cartridge or tank does not exceed a volume of 2 millilitres.
(3) The nicotine-containing liquid may not contain nicotine in excess of 20 milligrams per millilitre.

Now, 'Refill container' is clearly defined in the definitions -

"refill container" means a receptacle that—

(a) contains a nicotine-containing liquid, which can be used to refill an electronic cigarette, but
(b) is not a medicinal product or medical device;
(my emphasis)

It is quite obvious that a 250ml bottle of 72mg nicotine base can in no way be described as a 'refill container'. Hence its sale would not be prohibited; it is not eliquid any more than a bottle of concentrated flavouring or PG is!
Note also sub para (c) of para 36 - this implies the limit on tank size is 2ml, BUT as a SINGLE USE tank/cartridge, NOT the likes of a genesis tank. Nowhere else does the regulation refer to maximum tank size.
These are some of the loopholes that will allow us to continue. If you read Para 36 carefully it is more than playing on semantics, the wording is clear and can, I believe, be concisely interpreted in this way under law. Especially if the government, as I believe, really does want as light a touch as possible on vaping.

Vape on! Within or with-out the law, we will continue!

 

[Jorge22]

I already knew all that, namely from reading posts at ukvapers. Unfortunately, I'm not as optimistic as you seem to be regarding the outcome in Europe (and the UK, of course). I don't mean to rain on your parade but I think they will consider nicotine bases will only be sold in 10 ml bottles with a max of 20 mg. I also think they will consider the 2 ml size for anything. I could be wrong though, and I hope I am.

 

[prospero]

I already knew all that, namely from reading posts at ukvapers. Unfortunately, I'm not as optimistic as you seem to be regarding the outcome in Europe (and the UK, of course). I don't mean to rain on your parade but I think they will consider nicotine bases will only be sold in 10 ml bottles with a max of 20 mg. I also think they will consider the 2 ml size for anything. I could be wrong though, and I hope I am.

Positive I may be, but hesitantly, I'm still hoarding as many are. Non of us knows how this will all pan out.

Perhaps we are in a fortunate position in the UK. Intentionally or not, the draft UK legislation has slightly reworded the EU regulation. Referring to my previous post, note the difference between Para 36 of the UK draft and the EU document;

EU:-
3. Member States shall ensure that:
(a) nicotine-containing liquid is only placed on the market in dedicated refill containers not exceeding a volume of 10 ml, in disposable electronic cigarettes or in single use cartridges and that the cartridges or tanks do not exceed a volume of 2 ml;

UK:-
1) No person may produce or supply an electronic cigarette or a refill container which contains a nicotine-containing liquid unless it complies with paragraphs (2) to (11).
(2) The nicotine-containing liquid must be in—
(a) a dedicated refill container not exceeding a volume of 10 millilitres;
(b) a disposable electronic cigarette; or
(c) a single use cartridge where the cartridge or tank does not exceed a volume of 2 millilitres.

There is a big difference in meaning between the two regarding nicotine containing fluid (but not tanks, the inference remains that the 2ml limit is for 'single use' cartridges/tanks, i.e. those that come pre-filed with liquid). The UK legislation is unambiguous regarding nicotine fluids, it is clealy talking about a fully prepared, vapable, ejuice, whereas the EU regulation leads itself open to the interpretation of 'any liquid whatsoever which contains nicotine, whether for vaping or any other purpose' clearly ambiguous and ludicrous.

If the draft UK legislation stands then I put forth the following scenario for the UK:-
A vendor gets hauled into court, by whatever authority is going to police this nonsense, because they are selling concentrated nicotine base and tanks (say a Kanger Subtank). Any competent lawyer would have the judge dismissing the case within an hour.
Does this look like an e-cigarette 'refill container' m'lord? :-

(image from www.darkstarvapour.co.uk)
We are talking now beyond government intention, or what you think, to law, once the legislation is in place. That comes down solely to interpretation of the regulations. I believe that my interpretation of the UK draft, regarding nic and tanks, is the obvious interpretation, both grammatically and logically; any other interpretation requires a convoluted and twisted dissection of the words and meaning, unacceptable in a court of law.
All it requires is one court case to set a precedence, and I can see only one conclusion of such a case.
I'm sure that lawyers from some of the 'big boys' like Totally Wicked or Liberty Flights are already seeing things the same way. We have not seen, nor are likely to, big clearance sales of large tanks and nicotine base to clear their stocks before May 20th. If anything, the choice of >2ml tanks is increasing weekly.

 

[dms25]

Lower Saxony in Germany have just ordered hisvape.net to cease selling any liquids or bases over 16,7mg/ml, totally independent from the TPD this is a state decision... It's starting, bad news that is. Happy I ordered my nic base from them just in time!

reference in German:
Behördenwillkür – VAPE GmbH

 

[Layzee Vaper]

[QUOTE="
I'm sure that lawyers from some of the 'big boys' like Totally Wicked or Liberty Flights are already seeing things the same way. We have not seen, nor are likely to, big clearance sales of large tanks and nicotine base to clear their stocks before May 20th. If anything, the choice of >2ml tanks is increasing weekly.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately I am not so sure about that, I suspect the likes of TW have already realised they stand to gain from this. At the moment we have a lot of choice on where we buy from and this is keeping the price down. Many smaller vendors are not going to afford to do the testing etc. When we have less choice of where to buy anything the price is going to increase. My local TW sell some premade juice and also mix juice on site to order. They have said that they will only be selling premade juice in 10ml bottles. 3 for £10 I can easily make 30ml for less than £1. The lawyers may see ways around the problem but I am not to sure that the bigger players have much to loose. They will still sell juice and tanks and mods but they will play by the rules, and walk away with a greater market share and a tidy profit. The smaller vendors just don't have the resources to fight this through the courts and most will go under. As I understand it vendors will still be able to sell stock that they have onsite after May 20th they just wont be able to supply newly ordered mod's etc after this date. They have no reason to discount yet!

 

[Tonka2K]

I do not understand 'super member', 'senior member', 'Ultra member' or just 'full member'

 

[Maytwin]

I do not understand 'super member', 'senior member', 'Ultra member' or just 'full member'

It relates to how many posts you have made on the forum - see post #2 here for details

 

[ufosnowcat]

there used to be a sales ban of nicotine containing liquid in belgium (completely ignored atm)
meaning you could buy and own but not sell in belgium a sad thing for the local retailers but it never stopped me from getting wat i wanted from the uk netherlands or the US.

as i see it the new laws will be hurting local shops period

but i am stocking up on 100mg pg nic ;p
PG Nicotine 100 mg Basis 500 ml

now that gives another result of this clusterf*:
How safe is it that i and so many others have litres of 100mg nic liquid in the freezer,
wat if some kid takes it out ???

without these laws i would be happy to have a month or 2 of nic supply dousnt have to be 100mg --> i dont like being forced to hoard this stuff
i actually had to put a freezer in a kid safe spot in the basement

 

[Rossum]

How safe is it that i and so many others have litres of 100mg nic liquid in the freezer, wat if some kid takes it out ??

IMO, the danger is comparable to any number of household cleaning products.

If you don't trust your kids to stay out of stuff that might hurt them, adding something like this to a freezer is not terribly difficult: