So You Quit the Stinkers - But are you still hooked on Nicotine?

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Alien Traveler

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It's been discussed around the forum for years. I'm sure someone will chime in with specifics. The short story is vapor molecules are liquid and smoke is fine particulate. There's a big difference in size and liquid gets absorbed much more efficiently with the soft tissues of the mouth, throat, and nose vs deep in lungs.Nicotine doesn't pass through into the blood very well deep in the lungs in contrast to smoke which is extremely fast. It's part of the reason that nic delivery through vapor is a good bit slower than smoking.
It looks wrong.
Questions to anybody who wants to support this theory:
1. Molecules are smaller than particulate. May be it should be not molecules, but aerosol droplets?
2. Liquid should be absorbed better whether in mouth or in lungs, isn’t it?
3. In vapor/smoke nicotine is bonded to particles/droplets/other molecules or exists in molecular phase?
 

AndriaD

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It looks wrong.
Questions to anybody who wants to support this theory:
1. Molecules are smaller than particulate. May be it should be not molecules, but aerosol droplets?
2. Liquid should be absorbed better whether in mouth or in lungs, isn’t it?
3. In vapor/smoke nicotine is bonded to particles/droplets/other molecules or exists in molecular phase?

Molecule size is a very important aspect of anything inhaled. The inhalant medicine in the asthma inhalers I've used for years, albuterol sulfate, is engineered specifically with molecules too large to pass the blood (capillary) barrier in the lungs, so that their effect is topical rather than systemic. I suspect something like this is in play, with nicotine vapor -- the molecules probably do enter the lungs, but are too large to pass the blood (capillary) barrier to enter the bloodstream, from the lungs, and so the molecules must find their way into the blood via the soft tissues of the mouth, nose, and throat. The tissues in those places are not the same as the tissues of the gas-exchange system in the lungs.

Andria
 

SmokinRabbit

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Just this morning I was reading an article quoting a doctor who is actually "on out side", and he was saying nicotine absorption is higher. This is the problem. Lack of objective studies or opinions.

Tell me all you want nicotine isn't addictive, and it's something else in the smokes... All I know is switching to nicotine juice has made avoiding analogs MUCH easier. Obviously, even at only 6mg my body is absorbing enough to keep me from killing someone. LOL
 

Lovemychow

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I smoked PAD for 43 years not as much when I was younger. One time when I was in my 20’s I quit with no problems because I didn’t smoke as much then. A couple of weeks later I felt like I couldn’t breathe scared me so bad I went to the doctor and he told me I was hyperventilating. He said he could put me on nerve pills or I could go back to smoking…of course I went back to smoking (yes this was before smoking was considered deadly) by the time I was in my early 50’s I was up to a PAD and would of smoked more if I could afford it.

I desperately wanted to quit smoking. I saw both my Mom and Dad die from smoking related cancer, my “faith” tells me I’m sinning by harming my body and I hated the awful smell. Also my husband was a chain smoker and was having breathing problems so I thought if I quit he would.

A B&M shop opened in our small town and I couldn’t wait to try it out. I had tried the cig-a-likes before and hated them. After getting my 1st kit and started vaping I knew I could do it….in 2 days I’ll be 5 months smoke free!!! Praise the Lord!! My husband vapes when he’s around me instead of smoking but he still can’t put the stinky’s down  At least I can take a picture of him now without a cigarette in his mouth. He tells me I vape to much lol…I started with 18 nic…quickly went to 12 now down to 6 during the day and 0 after 8pm so it doesn’t bother my sleep.

Yes nicotine is addictive but if you’ve smoked for years It’s more the habit. That’s why the vaping helped me so much. If I vape to high nic it makes me sick and nervous but if I don’t vape at all I get sick and nervous. I’m going to try to give up vaping within a year, that’s my goal but I don’t ever want to go back to stinky’s!! At least I got my husband to cut down and praying he will finally give it up but found I can’t pressure him.
 

rolygate

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Wondering about the various aspects of nicotine is a fascinating pastime, but don't make the mistake of thinking that anyone knows much about it. Even the 'experts' are clearly way off the mark and it's easy to see why: the taboo surrounding nicotine, the huge amount of propaganda, and the myths.

When a situation exists where 44% of doctors in a highly-developed country are not only completely wrong about a subject they should know something about, and in fact believe the opposite of the truth, you know you're in a medical topic area that is abnormal. (In a recent survey 44% of British doctors thought nicotine was associated with cancer.)

Currently the biggest issue is that a foundation of current medical practice in this area is that nicotine is deemed to cause dependence and is responsible for dependence. It is very hard for senior figures to go against the convention, and to date only a handful have done so.

It's difficult to say exactly why this situation arose, but it is convenient for all and it has great commercial advantages, principally for the pharmaceutical industry. In practice they control how people think about this and similar issues, and you can see their power in the way that propaganda caused 44% of doctors to give a wrong answer that, in certain circumstances, will contribute to actions that could easily be deemed medical malpractice. A doctor assuming wrongly that nicotine is addictive (by itself, for never-smokers) and is associated with cancer can very easily make a wrong decision and give advice that could possibly lead to serious disease and death. I have seen this described as medical malpractice and can't really argue against it. The circumstances where this might occur are in helping the climate against THR solutions, and in prescribing pharmacotherapies for smoking cessation instead of a THR solution: a guaranteed 9 out of 10 failure rate for the first option versus an excellent success rate proven in the real world in ideal circumstance to be in excess of 50% (Sweden) and zero clinically-significant health implications for the average person, for the other option.

Some doctors think nicotine is associated with cancer; doctors in general don't know that THR is proven to work far better than pharmaceutical interventions when mentoring is available; doctors in general probably don't know that consumption of low-risk THR products is proven to have no clinical significance; and doctors in general probably don't know that there is no evidence whatsoever - not a single clinical trial, anywhere, ever - that reports nicotine can create dependence in a never-smoker; and that no person ever anywhere is reported as having become dependent on nicotine outside of delivery within tobacco; and that hundreds of never-smokers have been exposed to large quantities of nicotine for months at a time and not a single subject, ever, has been reported as showing any sign of reinforcement or dependence.

I think it is probably correct to refer to this as medical malpractice by the profession in general, and their senior figures, rather than to accuse individual doctors of this when they are clearly very badly advised by their seniors and specialists, and when the propaganda is universal. NICE and the FDA are very slowly moving to address this, but that movement is far too slow and will certainly result in many lives lost before it reaches the position of being accepted as incontrovertible. NICE have advised that nicotine is not associated with any disease; the FDA are beginning to make it clear that nicotine consumption has no known harms and does not create dependence; and several medical authorities have pointed out that long-term consumption has no clinical significance. But, in general, this information is not just being hidden from the public, but since many doctors are also clearly unaware of it, the information can probably be accurately described as being deliberately hidden.

When senior medical figures prevaricate on the issue of pure nicotine's potential for dependence in never-smokers, when not only is there zero evidence for it, but plenty of evidence opposing it, and the lack of such evidence raises important questions such as that it is probably impossible to provide it if none exists in the current climate, and finally that if such specific evidence existed then of course it would be trumpeted from the highest mountain, we can clearly see that there is a problem. That problem, put simply, is a general cowardice and/or prevarication by those in the profession who do know the facts.

It is impossible to provide evidence that pure nicotine can create clinically-significant measurements of dependence in never-smokers or those never exposed to tobacco. Senior medical figures who know this, but are not prepared to say so in public, are cowards and implicated in the resulting loss of life.

If they really wanted to preserve life then they would establish clinical trials to measure the dependence potential of pure nicotine in never-smokers. There are many such trials already, for other purposes, and without exception all report that there has not been a single example of nicotine dependence resulting from the administration of large quantities of nicotine to hundreds of never-smokers for many months.

We can also see that ethics panels have no problem with such trials, so protestations of problematic trial applications are a red herring (or, possibly, just another lie). There are many published trials where large amounts of nicotine were administered to never-smokers and this was the entire point of the trial. Let's see that proposed with an addictive and harmful drug - I'm sure you can think of one or two - and then look at the ethics committee's response... It is clear they have no problem with administering large amounts of nicotine to unexposed individuals as that was the whole point of these trials, and they were passed by ethics panels without issue.

The whole subject is obscured by a climate of outright lies, and the cowardice of senior medical figures doesn't help either.
 

Alien Traveler

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Molecule size is a very important aspect of anything inhaled. The inhalant medicine in the asthma inhalers I've used for years, albuterol sulfate, is engineered specifically with molecules too large to pass the blood (capillary) barrier in the lungs, so that their effect is topical rather than systemic. I suspect something like this is in play, with nicotine vapor -- the molecules probably do enter the lungs, but are too large to pass the blood (capillary) barrier to enter the bloodstream, from the lungs, and so the molecules must find their way into the blood via the soft tissues of the mouth, nose, and throat. The tissues in those places are not the same as the tissues of the gas-exchange system in the lungs.

Andria

Size of the nicotine molecule is the same all the time. So it is easily abosorbed by lungs.
 

Bob Chill

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Molecule size is a very important aspect of anything inhaled. The inhalant medicine in the asthma inhalers I've used for years, albuterol sulfate, is engineered specifically with molecules too large to pass the blood (capillary) barrier in the lungs, so that their effect is topical rather than systemic. I suspect something like this is in play, with nicotine vapor -- the molecules probably do enter the lungs, but are too large to pass the blood (capillary) barrier to enter the bloodstream, from the lungs, and so the molecules must find their way into the blood via the soft tissues of the mouth, nose, and throat. The tissues in those places are not the same as the tissues of the gas-exchange system in the lungs.

Andria

That's what I was trying to say but you said it much better. Liquid molecules have problems entering the bloodstream in the lungs.

Bodies readily dispose of absorbed pg/vg regardless of where is enters. There is no buildup or damage there unlike smoke in the lungs. You could drink a 30ml bottle of either like a shot and suffer no ill effects unless you are sensitive to them. That's part of the reason why I'm not very concerned about vaping them. I vape 2-3mls a day tops. Of which, the majority is exhaled. Hard to say how much actually makes it into the system. A third?
 

Alien Traveler

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When a situation exists where 44% of doctors in a highly-developed country

Why are you talking about doctors?
Doctors do not have right to have an opinion different from well-accepted one by biomedical science. Otherwise they can harm their patients or be sued for malpractice. Medical professionals should be pretty conservative.
 

Bob Chill

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No. Opposite is true. Only gas has better chances than liquid.

I'm not a doctor or a scientist. All I know is what I've read and personally experienced. It's very obvious from a personal experience standpoint that cigarettes are MUCH more efficient at delivering nicotine into the system. The why's haven't been completely nailed down yet but it's proven that smoke is heads and shoulders above vapor for getting nic into the system.

I personally get the most satisfaction from contact with throat, nose, and mouth. When I started over a year ago I used to inhale much deeper but the way I do it now is much better for me.

These are the most recent scientific findings on the topic (Farsalinos):

Therefore, it seems that nicotine is important in ECs' success as smoking substitutes. In this study a liquid with 18 mg/ml nicotine concentration was chosen, based on previous findings from our group showing that this is approximately the level of nicotine concentration needed for experienced vapers to consume 1 mg of nicotine in 5 minutes (which is similar to the level of nicotine in the smoke of one cigarette when smoked according to ISO 3308)7. Despite that, the main findings herein showed that such a liquid is insufficient to deliver nicotine to the blood stream as rapidly as smoking. In fact, it took about 35 minutes of vaping with the new-generation device at high wattage in order to obtain plasma levels similar to smoking one cigarette in 5 minutes.

The first-generation device was even less efficient in nicotine delivery; even 65 minutes of ad lib vaping was insufficient to deliver to the bloodstream nicotine at levels similar to smoking. This was reflected in participants' answers to questionnaires, showing that satisfaction and craving reduction was higher after using the new- compared with the first-generation device. Moreover, better nicotine delivery may be the reason why new-generation devices are more popular in dedicated users, most of which have quit smoking by using ECs10, 11. Considering that it is reasonable to expect EC users to self-titrate nicotine intake in a way similar to smoking20, this study indicates that there is an inherent inability of the EC to deliver nicotine to the blood stream at levels similar to tobacco cigarettes within the same time-period of use, although a previous study from our group showed that an 18 mg/ml liquid would theoreticaly be adequate for that in terms of liquid consumption7. Possible reasons for these findings may be that nicotine delivered to the EC aerosol is not absorbed from the lungs but from the oral mucosa. Therefore, nicotine absorption would be expected to occur at a similar rate to nicotine-replacement therapies (NRTs). Moreover, a significant part of nicotine deposited to the oral mucosa is expected to be swallowed, with subsequent first-pass metabolism to the liver which reduces bio-availability21. Another possibility is that the vehicle of nicotine delivery (liquid droplets of propylene glycol and glycerol) may negatively interact with nicotine absorption from the lungs compared to the particulate matter, which is the delivery-vehicle of nicotine in smoking. More studies are needed to define the reason for this lower rate of absorption from ECs.

http://www.nature.com/srep/2014/140226/srep04133/full/srep04133.html
 
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Alien Traveler

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I'm not a doctor or a scientist. All I know is what I've read and personally experienced. It's very obvious from a personal experience standpoint that cigarettes are MUCH more efficient at delivering nicotine into the system. The why's haven't been completely nailed down yet but it's proven that smoke is heads and shoulders above vapor for getting nic into the system.

I personally get the most satisfaction from contact with throat, nose, and mouth. When I started over a year ago I used to inhale much deeper but the way I do it now is much better for me.

These are the most recent scientific findings on the topic (Farsalinos):
Possible reasons for these findings may be that nicotine delivered to the EC aerosol is not absorbed from the lungs but from the oral mucosa. ... More studies are needed to define the reason for this lower rate of absorption from ECs.


Nicotine absorption from electronic cigarette use: comparison between first and new-generation devices : Scientific Reports : Nature Publishing Group

Thank you very much.
Now I see where from where it goes. So we a speaking really not about molecules but about aerosols. Most important - we are speaking about speculation, not about facts.
It is common practice for scientific papers – when something new was found, but it cannot be explained right now, authors speculate about possible causes and finish with “More studies are needed…”
To summarize – we do not know how and where nicotine is absorbed.
 

ClippinWings

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I vape either 3 or 6 mg liquid now...

I can say with confidence I'm not "Hooked" on nicotine... as I have vaped 0 mg for 3 days in a row with no ill effects.

HOWEVER, I now choose to vape nic because I have apparently been self medicating using nicotine since i first started smoking and never knew it.

I have concentration and attention issues without Nicotine. I also find it comforting... I know that's vague, but I just feel more "myself" when I have some nicotine.
 

coalyard

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Here's the problem. Anything I say or quote or link to, you're going to dismiss it anyway as outdated, and invalid source or media hype. This argument could go on forever. And of course, when you try to look up nicotine health effects now, you get tons of results from the ecig industry (and users)... Which isn't exactly objective (as I stated earlier).

But sure, here's on example... Just so you don't say I'm being uncooperative.
Nicotine and sympathetic neurotransmiss - PubMed Mobile

I'm not interested in arguing with you. As I also stated earlier, we are a camp of justifiers.... That's how we kept up smoking for so long to begin with.... And I include myself in that camp, just to be clear.

What made you think I was looking for an argument? If you have evidence that nicotine is actually harmful, I would be most interested in seeing it. I am sure everyone else would as well.

So when you make an assertion that is challenged, you state that you don't want an argument, and say that any evidence you present will be disregarded. Hmm.

Last I checked, having sex also increases heart rate and blood pressure. I am looking for studies related to long term deleterious health effects. Because I haven't found any.
 

rolygate

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It was measured after only 5 minutes of smoking or vaping, cumulative effect is not really known. It was never measured for prolonged durations. Most vapers vape for much (and I mean – much!) longer times during a day than smokers smoke. So, for some vapers nicotine consumption is much higher than it was when they smoked.

I'm referring to dozens of personal tests and clinical trials and have never seen an exception to my statement, "Vaped nicotine appears 33% to 40% 'stronger' than smoked nicotine". If I knew of an exception then I wouldn't make that blanket statement.

The clinical trials all (from memory) measured Cmax and Tmax, so time vs max value was covered, e.g. at 5 minutes and 60 minutes. Please don't put me to the trouble of digging out refs, there are plenty out there.

In any case, my stuff is principally opinion and people can take it how they want. I've got years invested in this plus a lot of background that positions me well for these topics, and don't like to make incorrect statements in public; since with the web, once it's out there then it's out there forever. The main problem with some of this stuff is that I'm the first person saying it, or the first person anyone's aware of saying it. That doesn't make it wrong, just before its time.

Come back in three years and tell me how wrong I was. You'll be the first, if you manage it.
 

Jman8

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I was reading the thread about vaping helping people to quit smoking. That's great of course, but I want to know if you're all still hooked on Nicotine. How much? If not, how long did it take you to get off the nicotine completely?

I do not believe I'm hooked on nicotine. I still use it and currently (in last week), I'm at about .5 ml a day of 18 mg juice. Kind of an 'accidentally cut down' sort of thing as I'm experiencing a cold that keeps hanging around.

This is second time I've had a cold while being a vaper (for 2.5 years). The first time, I couldn't handle vaping at all as it hurt too much to puff on my eCig. But I could definitely feel the cravings. Being the dual user that I am, I just smoked during the previous cold and made due that way. Cravings satisfied, and a week or so later went back to normal vaping (around 2 to 3 ml a day).

This time with a cold, I couldn't handle either for a couple days. Didn't really hurt as much as I just knew it was making things worse. So, I stopped (vaping and smoking) for about 2 days. Mentally, I missed it, but physiologically, not really at all. Then when I turned that corner toward feeling better, I took a few puffs from the eCigs but only mouth puffs (no inhaling). Last night (nearly 7 days after onset of cold), was first time I inhaled more than 3 puffs in a day. Am still smoke free in this time period.

Main point here, as it relates to what you are asking is I no longer feel the craving, and didn't at any point during this experience of the cold. That strongly contrasts with what I experienced before (about 1.5 years ago when I had other cold).

"hooked on Nicotine" is words you chose to go with and is what I'm basing my response on. I realize this thread has spent a great deal of time analyzing nicotine addiction, and I think it boils down to assumption that if anyone uses nicotine, chances are they are addicted. As one who's gone cold turkey and has shared my recent experience, I would say I am no longer hooked. I realize I could become so, but also wish to make clear that currently, and for about a year now, I'm feeling fairly confident that I am not hooked.

I ask because vaping has helped me cut way down, but I still crave smokes... and it's probably because I'm using zero-nicotine juice. Reason? Because the cigarettes I smoke are SO light in nicotine, it's impossible to find juice with a low enough amount. I've actually considered buying two bottles of the same flavor, one with nicotine and one without, and mixing them myself to try to get lower nicotine.

I don't want to end up addicted to MORE nicotine.

So what's the deal folks... How much nicotine are you still sucking on?

I have trouble understanding the issue with "ending up addicted to more nicotine." I find that to be cultural nonsense that indicates brainwashing of sorts. We are talking about recreational products for adults that people find enjoyable and I am one that enjoys, even still, both smoking and vaping and currently crave neither. If I were truly concerned with the nicotine intake as a detrimental addiction, I would go cold turkey and feel that would be most sensible approach, at least compared to tapering off the nicotine. As I'm not experiencing detrimental addiction, and really haven't since I've taken up vaping, then I don't see this need to curtail things other than what my body may tell me (i.e. recent experience with cold).

So again, I am sucking on about .5 ml of 18 mg nicotine per day right now and am one who looks forward to upping that (back to 2 to 3 ml a day) and to enjoying a smoke. Because I find both are enjoyable and that I have overcome the craving aspect that comes from (alleged) nicotine addiction.
 
I don't have any plan to quit vaping... I am SO addicted to the behavioral habit of smoking, that without this whole e-cigarette thing, I would likely die with a cigarette in my mouth. If I can ditch the nicotine though... well it's just one less harmful substance I'd be putting in my body.

YES! THIS. Zero plans here of quitting vaping, but very happy to be off the smokes. 7 days and counting.
 

rolygate

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Why are you talking about doctors?
Doctors do not have right to have an opinion different from well-accepted one by biomedical science. Otherwise they can harm their patients or be sued for malpractice. Medical professionals should be pretty conservative.

Exactly - thank you for agreeing with my statement.

NICE is the official medical authority for Britain. NICE's guidance is the official and authorised medical guidance for all British medical practitioners. 44% of British doctors revealed that they are ignorant of the official guidance on nicotine.

As you correctly imply, the opinion of the medical authority in Togoland or anywhere else is irrelevant - British doctors are required to comply with their official guidance.
 

AndriaD

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Size of the nicotine molecule is the same all the time. So it is easily abosorbed by lungs.

You're CERTAIN of that? That molecule size in a liquid vs a smoke is always the same? Where do you get that particular certainty? Because I know *FOR A FACT* that inhaling vapor like smoke -- down into the lungs -- does NOT provide sufficient dosage, whereas holding the vapor in the mouth, throat, and nose, DOES provide it -- I proved this to myself in trying to get over my morning cravings.

Andria
 
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