Spending your money at BIG TOBACCO?

[Nicklemile]

I found a company on line with a real nice website. It's SO nice it smelt fishy. I looked at everything on every page and I must admit that a lot of there juices sound good. I like the way they rate them with little idle gauges for Sweetness, Throat Hit, tobacco Taste, PG / Blend / VG. "Helpful''. It has real nice pictures, unique names and there's a large inventory to choose from with many different art styles and bottle shapes to appeal to a wide range of consumers. There is also a price point for almost every body. The site is well organized and you flow through it easily. I cant even think what it cost to build it. Many thousands. I'm not kidding. "V2.com"

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not writing this to make people feel good about how well they are selling vape liquids and equipment "witch I didn't even mention" . I'm here drawing attention to just who is behind this E-cig / vape liquid company.

When you look on the footer of the site you will find the name VMR Products LLC. This is the "front name" of the company. Google VMR Products LLC and find this --> VMR Products, LLC: Private Company Information - Bloomberg
On this page you will find all the company information about the company including the parent company. "VMR Products, LLC has a strategic partnership with National Tobacco Company, L.P."
I found the Wiki page--> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Tobacco_Company
Here is the first paragraph of the Wiki...
The American Tobacco Company was a tobacco company founded in 1890 by J. B. Duke through a merger between a number of U.S. tobacco manufacturers including Allen and Ginter and Goodwin & Company. The company was one of the original 12 members of the Dow Jones Industrial Average in 1896. The American Tobacco Company dominated the industry by acquiring the Lucky Strike Company and over 200 other rival firms. Antitrust action begun in 1907 broke the company into several major companies in 1911.[1]

The American Tobacco Company restructured itself in 1969, forming a holding company called American Brands, Inc., which operated American Tobacco as a subsidiary. American Brands acquired a variety of non-tobacco businesses during the 1970s and 1980s, and sold its tobacco operations to Brown & Williamson in 1994. American Brands subsequently renamed itself Fortune Brands.

When you read further on the page I can see that there is a possibility that VMR Products LLC isn't involved in the sale of tobacco any longer. But I don't know.

This leads me to the questions. Where do I want to spend my money? Do I want to spend it with a company that was or is BIG TOBACCO? Or do I want to spend my money with a company that got started trying to help people quit smoking as a result keeping families together longer.

I hope this was the right place to add this thread. Please add your thoughts and feelings good or bad.

Nicklemile "James"

 

[stols001]

I don't buy cigalikes (for many reasons) but one of those is that the tobacco companies got enough of my money for the rest of (my and their life) during my smoking habit.

I would be unlikely to order from a company "fronted" by big tobacco, because I don't trust some of their "proprietary" products, where you may be purchasing something that "looks great" for vaping, and perhaps "tastes great" even but could possibly have added in certain things. I know that sounds a bit paranoid, but well, it also kind of isn't.

I doubt I would have come across this company in my travels, but I appreciate you bringing it to everyone's attention. Etc. This is also why I DIY, I like having control over my flavoring and other ingredients (plus, it's so much cheaper.)

Given what is probably (possibly) going to go down with the FDA I'd rather shop with merchants who are likely going to have their inventory (and maybe their business) severely curtailed in the process. Etc.

Anna

 

[Nicklemile]

stols001..... You mentioned that you DIY. I would like to do that too but I don't know where to start. There are so many sites to choose from and many different people saying different things. It is so confusing. And I don't want to wast money.. I don't have much to waste.. Do you have any advice? Or maybe a good thread to follow?

Or if there is anyone willing to offer some help too.... Thanks

 

[stols001]

You will probably find the answers to many things in this forum: DIY E-Liquid

As far as DIY, you can approach it as simply, or as complexly as you want. Some folks start out with "one shot" flavorings which contain all ingredients to make a somewhat "complex" flavor and many can be added to base plus nicotine, shaken and vaped. You will need to decide how you want to approach mixing (by weight or by volume, I've done both) and how you want to get started There are lots of great DIY vendors on ECF. Some folks choose and select pre-written recipes, others don't. I approached DIY by a lot of juice bar tasting at B&M vape shops, read a lot of recipes, got a sense of my "flavor profiles"... and then got very boring by mixing SINGLE flavors in tester size, steeping them as I tasted them to get sense of percentages (for me) and would then combine those flavors in a tank, to figure out what went "with" what. I went slowly, but the benefit for me is that by doing that, I have a pretty good understanding of MOST of my flavors, and how to combine them appropriately and overall steeping times.

I set very low initial "goals" for myself and built from there. I'm now making 3, 4 occasionally 5 flavor mixes (sometimes with sweetener and/or additives) and I've been very pleased at how things have turned out. For me. I will say that is ONE approach, and well, there are as many approaches as there are people. I didn't use one shots until later (and I am often of the opinion that *I* can improve them slightly *for me*.

Also, many vedors will sell "start up kits" and that may or may not be helpful, I didn't go that route and got most of my measuring syringes from Walmart (the pharmacy gives them to me for free, and I mix direct into my eliquid bottles using a funnel (unless it's flavors, or nic, which I don't need much of).

The building blocks you will need: Nicotine, most people use 100 mg/ml but you can go lower to start if you wish, PG and VG (DIY vendors sell this, can also be obtained other places, and as long as it's USP grade, it should be fine). Many people have a preferred vendor, mine happened to be Nicotine River, and some other places too like One shot DIY (usually acronymed as OSDIY) or Flavor Shack, etc.

All manufacturers flavors are slightly different in strength and taste, so you may find different results with two different vendors as far as percentage needed and personal taste. Some folks keep things fairly minimalist and mix a few recipes they've developed and enjoyed while other DIY have enough flavorings to rival a commercial outfit.

But the main thing is, head over to the DIY forum, acquaint yourself with some of the resources there, and OH keep notes. Keep excellent notes as you mix, including steeping (ideal) length (for you) and etc. You don't want to make that perfect recipe and then not be able to replicate it.

Okay, that was kind of a ramble, I hope some of the information is helpful. I might advise buying any flavors and whatnot that you aren't sure about in "tester" sizes, some vendors also offer "sample packs" of flavors that are pre-chosen or that you can select yourself, that can be a good way to get started, too.

It probably seems overwhelming but it need not be. DIY can be as complicated or as simple as you make it. There are some good juice calculators out there, and some will allow you to 'save" your recipes rather than having to do it by hand, etc.

It's just one of those things that you will best understand by "doing it," in whatever fashion you decide is right... For you.

Best of luck,

Anna

 

[Vinnybagodoughnuts]

I found a company on line with a real nice website. It's SO nice it smelt fishy. I looked at everything on every page and I must admit that a lot of there juices sound good. I like the way they rate them with little idle gauges for Sweetness, Throat Hit, Tobacco Taste, PG / Blend / VG. "Helpful''. It has real nice pictures, unique names and there's a large inventory to choose from with many different art styles and bottle shapes to appeal to a wide range of consumers. There is also a price point for almost every body. The site is well organized and you flow through it easily. I cant even think what it cost to build it. Many thousands. I'm not kidding. "V2.com"

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not writing this to make people feel good about how well they are selling vape liquids and equipment "witch I didn't even mention" . I'm here drawing attention to just who is behind this E-cig / vape liquid company.

When you look on the footer of the site you will find the name VMR Products LLC. This is the "front name" of the company. Google VMR Products LLC and find this --> VMR Products, LLC: Private Company Information - Bloomberg
On this page you will find all the company information about the company including the parent company. "VMR Products, LLC has a strategic partnership with National Tobacco Company, L.P."
I found the Wiki page--> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Tobacco_Company
Here is the first paragraph of the Wiki...
The American Tobacco Company was a tobacco company founded in 1890 by J. B. Duke through a merger between a number of U.S. tobacco manufacturers including Allen and Ginter and Goodwin & Company. The company was one of the original 12 members of the Dow Jones Industrial Average in 1896. The American Tobacco Company dominated the industry by acquiring the Lucky Strike Company and over 200 other rival firms. Antitrust action begun in 1907 broke the company into several major companies in 1911.[1]

The American Tobacco Company restructured itself in 1969, forming a holding company called American Brands, Inc., which operated American Tobacco as a subsidiary. American Brands acquired a variety of non-tobacco businesses during the 1970s and 1980s, and sold its tobacco operations to Brown & Williamson in 1994. American Brands subsequently renamed itself Fortune Brands.

When you read further on the page I can see that there is a possibility that VMR Products LLC isn't involved in the sale of tobacco any longer. But I don't know.

This leads me to the questions. Where do I want to spend my money? Do I want to spend it with a company that was or is BIG TOBACCO? Or do I want to spend my money with a company that got started trying to help people quit smoking as a result keeping families together longer.

I hope this was the right place to add this thread. Please add your thoughts and feelings good or bad.

Nicklemile "James"

Aren't the National Tobacco Company and American Tobacco company 2 different companies?
https://www.linkedin.com/company/national-tobacco

 

[DeloresRose]

stols001..... You mentioned that you DIY. I would like to do that too but I don't know where to start. There are so many sites to choose from and many different people saying different things. It is so confusing. And I don't want to wast money.. I don't have much to waste.. Do you have any advice? Or maybe a good thread to follow?

Or if there is anyone willing to offer some help too.... Thanks

What Anna said.

I read the DIY threads for a few weeks then bought a bunch of stuff and started mixing.

It sounds complicated, but have you ever made tea? Well, it’s smaller than tea, but no more complex.

Look at what you’re vaping now. What’s your nic, pg and vg??

Well, you’d just plug those numbers into a juice calculator, pick a flavor or recipe, and it’ll tell you how much of what to add.

I don’t make anything crazy complex. Many of my mixes are single flavor at the same percentage.

The trick really, is take notes, measure consistently, and steep as needed.

 

[K-9s]

Is it really cheaper to DIY? How much volume do you have to create to see a savings? How long do the ingredients last before going bad?

 

[leftyandsparky]

Is it really cheaper to DIY? How much volume do you have to create to see a savings? How long do the ingredients last before going bad?

It’s really cheap to diy. I started off spending less than $80 and I have enough nicotine and flavoring for 9 yrs.

 

[SupplyDaddy]

Is it really cheaper to DIY? How much volume do you have to create to see a savings? How long do the ingredients last before going bad?

How Cheap? I sell 100ml bottles of eliquid to my friends for $5, and that give me about 50 cents profit with nic, VG and PG and the bottle. The biggest cost for me for this is buying the flavors in little 8ml bottles for these "I got to have this flavor" friends. If I can give them something I already have, I make about $2.50 off that $5.

Volume? Well, you might have to spend about $150 to get a great cost savings.
This could get you 4 GALLONS of VG(3 gallons) and PG(1 gallon) and 1 Liter of 100mg Nicotine. That will make you 538 EACH 30 ml bottles of eliquid (@ $20 a bottle =$10,760.00), even without the flavors (which would stretch that number even higher) a 10 or 15 pack of bottles from ebay and some measuring needles and several flavors to start with.

Keeping your ingredients cool and in a dark place and they can last a year or 2 or more.

 

[K-9s]

Ugh. It isn't just shinyitis that gets you here. It is DIYitis.

How do I know that the products aren't from big tobacco? Or is that just a risk/consequence of being a nicotine fiend?

 

[IDJoel]

Ugh. It isn't just shinyitis that gets you here. It is DIYitis.

How do I know that the products aren't from big tobacco? Or is that just a risk/consequence of being a nicotine fiend?

Big tobacco doesn't sell you components to make your own (flavor concentrates, PG, VG, or nicotine concentrates). They will only sell you finished products where they can keep all profit to themselves. (by the way: I DIY for an average of $0.30 per 30mL unflavored; and less than $1.50 per 30mL complex flavoring).

Show me one flavor concentrate, PG, VG, or even nicotine concentrate manufacturer, that is owned/operated by Big Tobacco; and I will re-think DIYing. (Just sayin'....) "They" are buying the same basic components, we DIYers buy, and are charging a ship-load for the convenience. BT has never had shame; and they never will. My saggy, flabby, middle (aged) finger will flail in their face, until my remains are shoved into the crematorium!

 

[Steve Parry]

Do I want to spend it with a company that was or is BIG TOBACCO? Or do I want to spend my money with a company that got started trying to help people quit smoking as a result keeping families together longer.

I started vaping in 2009 with an Njoy Npro I bought at a truck stop. For the next 3 years I used different gas station type cig-a-like kits with different levels of success. I was a dual user with no intention of completely quitting smoking.

In 2012 I stumbled across V2. Ordered a kit, and within 2 months I completely quit smoking. Did I give a damn if they were associated with a tobacco company? Nope.

Today, I'm a vaper. I would take offense if you called me a smoker. That's who I used to be. If they made a change too, why would I reject them?

I don't use V2 anymore. I have a buddy who quit smoking with Vuse and still uses them. If it helps you quit, who cares if the company still sells tobacco products? The point is that you're not buying them anymore.

 

[rabernet]

You will probably find the answers to many things in this forum: DIY E-Liquid

As far as DIY, you can approach it as simply, or as complexly as you want. Some folks start out with "one shot" flavorings which contain all ingredients to make a somewhat "complex" flavor and many can be added to base plus nicotine, shaken and vaped. You will need to decide how you want to approach mixing (by weight or by volume, I've done both) and how you want to get started There are lots of great DIY vendors on ECF. Some folks choose and select pre-written recipes, others don't. I approached DIY by a lot of juice bar tasting at B&M vape shops, read a lot of recipes, got a sense of my "flavor profiles"... and then got very boring by mixing SINGLE flavors in tester size, steeping them as I tasted them to get sense of percentages (for me) and would then combine those flavors in a tank, to figure out what went "with" what. I went slowly, but the benefit for me is that by doing that, I have a pretty good understanding of MOST of my flavors, and how to combine them appropriately and overall steeping times.

I set very low initial "goals" for myself and built from there. I'm now making 3, 4 occasionally 5 flavor mixes (sometimes with sweetener and/or additives) and I've been very pleased at how things have turned out. For me. I will say that is ONE approach, and well, there are as many approaches as there are people. I didn't use one shots until later (and I am often of the opinion that *I* can improve them slightly *for me*.

Also, many vedors will sell "start up kits" and that may or may not be helpful, I didn't go that route and got most of my measuring syringes from Walmart (the pharmacy gives them to me for free, and I mix direct into my eliquid bottles using a funnel (unless it's flavors, or nic, which I don't need much of).

The building blocks you will need: Nicotine, most people use 100 mg/ml but you can go lower to start if you wish, PG and VG (DIY vendors sell this, can also be obtained other places, and as long as it's USP grade, it should be fine). Many people have a preferred vendor, mine happened to be Nicotine River, and some other places too like One shot DIY (usually acronymed as OSDIY) or Flavor Shack, etc.

All manufacturers flavors are slightly different in strength and taste, so you may find different results with two different vendors as far as percentage needed and personal taste. Some folks keep things fairly minimalist and mix a few recipes they've developed and enjoyed while other DIY have enough flavorings to rival a commercial outfit.

But the main thing is, head over to the DIY forum, acquaint yourself with some of the resources there, and OH keep notes. Keep excellent notes as you mix, including steeping (ideal) length (for you) and etc. You don't want to make that perfect recipe and then not be able to replicate it.

Okay, that was kind of a ramble, I hope some of the information is helpful. I might advise buying any flavors and whatnot that you aren't sure about in "tester" sizes, some vendors also offer "sample packs" of flavors that are pre-chosen or that you can select yourself, that can be a good way to get started, too.

It probably seems overwhelming but it need not be. DIY can be as complicated or as simple as you make it. There are some good juice calculators out there, and some will allow you to 'save" your recipes rather than having to do it by hand, etc.

It's just one of those things that you will best understand by "doing it," in whatever fashion you decide is right... For you.

Best of luck,

Anna

The one thing that I am stuck on - nicotine is sold either VG or PG or a 50/50 blend. How do you know which to buy as a base? I generally vape 70VG/30PG when I buy from commercial juice vendors.

 

[Vinnybagodoughnuts]

I buy it in pg only because when you put it in the freezer to store it the vg gets thick as mollases. It really doesn't matter which way you go .It will just change the amounts of pg or vg in your mix to get the desired ratio.

 

[Upinsmoke]

I found a company on line with a real nice website. It's SO nice it smelt fishy. I looked at everything on every page and I must admit that a lot of there juices sound good. I like the way they rate them with little idle gauges for Sweetness, Throat Hit, Tobacco Taste, PG / Blend / VG. "Helpful''. It has real nice pictures, unique names and there's a large inventory to choose from with many different art styles and bottle shapes to appeal to a wide range of consumers. There is also a price point for almost every body. The site is well organized and you flow through it easily. I cant even think what it cost to build it. Many thousands. I'm not kidding. "V2.com"

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not writing this to make people feel good about how well they are selling vape liquids and equipment "witch I didn't even mention" . I'm here drawing attention to just who is behind this E-cig / vape liquid company.

When you look on the footer of the site you will find the name VMR Products LLC. This is the "front name" of the company. Google VMR Products LLC and find this --> VMR Products, LLC: Private Company Information - Bloomberg
On this page you will find all the company information about the company including the parent company. "VMR Products, LLC has a strategic partnership with National Tobacco Company, L.P."
I found the Wiki page--> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Tobacco_Company
Here is the first paragraph of the Wiki...
The American Tobacco Company was a tobacco company founded in 1890 by J. B. Duke through a merger between a number of U.S. tobacco manufacturers including Allen and Ginter and Goodwin & Company. The company was one of the original 12 members of the Dow Jones Industrial Average in 1896. The American Tobacco Company dominated the industry by acquiring the Lucky Strike Company and over 200 other rival firms. Antitrust action begun in 1907 broke the company into several major companies in 1911.[1]

The American Tobacco Company restructured itself in 1969, forming a holding company called American Brands, Inc., which operated American Tobacco as a subsidiary. American Brands acquired a variety of non-tobacco businesses during the 1970s and 1980s, and sold its tobacco operations to Brown & Williamson in 1994. American Brands subsequently renamed itself Fortune Brands.

When you read further on the page I can see that there is a possibility that VMR Products LLC isn't involved in the sale of tobacco any longer. But I don't know.

This leads me to the questions. Where do I want to spend my money? Do I want to spend it with a company that was or is BIG TOBACCO? Or do I want to spend my money with a company that got started trying to help people quit smoking as a result keeping families together longer.

I hope this was the right place to add this thread. Please add your thoughts and feelings good or bad.

Nicklemile "James"

I started a similar thread a while back.
My first vape was a B.A.T.s product.
I was totally unaware how embedded Big Tobacco is in the vaping arena.

With most consumer products the parent company are proud to display their logo on the packaging.
Now I'm fairly relaxed about tobacco companies having a market share of the vape industry.
I do feel consumers should be aware who they are giving their hard earned coin to .

 

[leftyandsparky]

The one thing that I am stuck on - nicotine is sold either VG or PG or a 50/50 blend. How do you know which to buy as a base? I generally vape 70VG/30PG when I buy from commercial juice vendors.

You would buy either or. when using steam engine ejuice calculator it will tell you how much to put of each ingredient.

 

[stols001]

If you can tolerate PG I would get that (or 50/50). I am locked in to pure VG (can't tolerate PG) and it is a PITA to deal with ALL VG nic. Very viscous and annoying.

I don't even know why they offer it that way other than for folks who WANT max VG or are PG sensitive, so I am GLAD they offer it that way, but man, it's an annoyance if you ask me.

You put in a juice calculator what your nic base is "made" from and that will do the rest of the calculating for you and etc.

Anna

 

[Just Me]

The one thing that I am stuck on - nicotine is sold either VG or PG or a 50/50 blend. How do you know which to buy as a base? I generally vape 70VG/30PG when I buy from commercial juice vendors.

It only matters if you are sensitive/allergic to PG or VG. In that case you would want to avoid as much of the offending factor as possible. Otherwise, just buy your nic in either base, doesn't matter. Except VG based nic is rather thick and hard/slow to deal with...

 

[DeloresRose]

Is it really cheaper to DIY? How much volume do you have to create to see a savings? How long do the ingredients last before going bad?

You don’t need to buy gallons of everything to try it out. One of the places I buy stuff is ecigexpress.

When I started, it was with 120 mls of nic and a liter each of pg and vg. Maybe a dozen sample sized 10 ml flavors. A few bottles.

Even considering I spent more per ml buying the smaller quantities, I was still making juice for under $4 a bottle, now about $1. How much does yours cost? And how much do you use?

I get the confusion, because there’s a lot of info out there. But we can’t really tell you where your favorite place to buy stuff will be. Or what your favorite flavor is. All any of us did was start somewhere and find something that worked.

Also, I’ve used 50/50 and all vg nic. It really doesn’t matter unless you’re sensitive to either pg or vg, or you use a lower mg/ml nic base. In that case, you want to get the one that is closer to your juice preference.