Steam-engine and coil length question

[Kennneth]

Howdy, noob here but have a couple questions...

I used steam-engine and was wondering why it doesn't have a calculated value for leg-to-leg distance? (i.e. multiply #wraps by width). Or maybe I'm blind

And is there a ratio of leg-to-leg length to air hole diameter that's most desired?

Ex to me length of finished coil and leg-to-leg length are same

. >------------< distance I'm asking about
.....|..............|
....\\\\\\\\\\\\
............. air hole

..... Air hole
....... or
..Air hole?

and air hole size in relation to this distance.

Thanks : )

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Steam does not give a leg to leg distance. Not sure why, perhaps because it can not account for spaced coils (just a wild guess). And not sure what you mean by air hole. Are you referring to the air hole of the atomizer? Not sure how Steam can gauge that

 

[Kennneth]

Steam does not give a leg to leg distance. Not sure why, perhaps because it can not account for spaced coils (just a wild guess). And not sure what you mean by air hole. Are you referring to the air hole of the atomizer? Not sure how Steam can gauge that

I wasn't clear on the air hole question, sry... and is not related to steam.

This ratio

 

[Punk In Drublic]

I wasn't clear on the air hole question, sry... and is not related to steam.

This ratio

With the many different types of atomizers along with different air flow configurations I do not know of any kind of ratio – perhaps some have come up with their own….mine is called “Trial and error”. Doesn’t always work as planned the first time, but if I keep at it, I usually find success. But interesting question.

 

[GOMuniEsq]

The "air hole" is the center bore, and it defines the coil's inner diameter (⌀). You're right that steam-engine doesn't have a measurement for the coil length (leg-to-leg), probably because there are too many variables to account for in estimating it, and because nobody ever requested that such a measurement be added. To estimate how many wraps/turns will fit in the space you have, take the distance between the post holes on the deck and divide it by the width of your wire.

As for inner diameter : coil length ratio, I don't think there's a hard and fast rule. With RTAs, coil length is usually between 5-9mm and inner diameter can be adjusted as needed, usually between 2.5mm and 3.5mm for dual coils, and 4mm or higher for single coils. ⌀3mm is quite standard. The diameter is the figure you can play with in steam-engine to fine tune the resistance while limiting the number of wraps. The diameter also limits how much wicking material can be used, and it can be dictated by the size of your juice channels. That's trial-and-error stuff.

 

[bombastinator]

With the many different types of atomizers along with different air flow configurations I do not know of any kind of ratio – perhaps some have come up with their own….mine is called “Trial and error”. Doesn’t always work as planned the first time, but if I keep at it, I usually find success. But interesting question.

The problem is that the inside of an atty when it’s being vaped is one of those wildly complicated fluid dynamics problems so hard core that even if you knew the exact dimensions of that exact atty you’d need some much bigger iron than a simple web app to calculate it. Or even an enthusiast level gaming rig. That sort of stuff is the perview of multi-rack machines with logos like IBM on them. Also it would change totally from atty to atty and even possibly by coil and wicking within each atty.

There is a rule of thumb though: you want your coil as far into the airflow as you can get it.

 

[Kennneth]

The problem is that the inside of an atty when it’s being vaped is one of those wildly complicated fluid dynamics problems so hard core that even if you knew the exact dimensions of that exact atty you’d need some much bigger iron than a simple web app to calculate it. Or even an enthusiast level gaming rig. That sort of stuff is the perview of multi-rack machines with logos like IBM on them. Also it would change totally from atty to atty and even possibly by coil and wicking within each atty.

There is a rule of thumb though: you want your coil as far into the airflow as you can get it.

Yea, a huge ball of...something. Just thinking about laminar flow and (better) achieving that while minimizing bypass air... in a chaotic system involving significant changes in thermodynamics....reminds me of rocket science!

And thank you, I had assumed most do trial and error along with learned knowledge from others who made the previous trials and errors.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

It does take a bit of processing power to model fluid dynamics, but we are not talking super computers. Modern video games employ a great deal of fluid dynamics and complex physics calculations. If I can plot the time Earth enters a deep freeze, down to the minute, due to Alpha Centauri collapsing into a black hole, then modeling the air flow of an atomizer should be no more stressful than a game of solitaire. The challenge is knowing all the correct perimeters! For those interested, Universal Sandbox which is an astrophysics simulator is an excellent way to spend a rainy day entertaining yourself.

@GOMuniEsq – wouldn’t the inner diameter of a coil be referred to as the cotton hole? Or Rayon hole if that was your flavour

 

[Kennneth]

...Universal Sandbox which is an astrophysics simulator is an excellent way to spend a rainy day entertaining yourself.

@GOMuniEsq – wouldn’t the inner diameter of a coil be referred to as the cotton hole? Or Rayon hole if that was your flavour

Your as sick as I AM!
Don't you just luv watching Einstein-Rosen effects! I do : )

And um, SpaceEngine is a free similar experience too : )

 

[TrollDragon]

If you look at the right hand table in this example you will see the calculated coil width.
Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators

 

[bombastinator]

It does take a bit of processing power to model fluid dynamics, but we are not talking super computers. Modern video games employ a great deal of fluid dynamics and complex physics calculations. If I can plot the time Earth enters a deep freeze, down to the minute, due to Alpha Centauri collapsing into a black hole, then modeling the air flow of an atomizer should be no more stressful than a game of solitaire. The challenge is knowing all the correct perimeters! For those interested, Universal Sandbox which is an astrophysics simulator is an excellent way to spend a rainy day entertaining yourself.

@GOMuniEsq – wouldn’t the inner diameter of a coil be referred to as the cotton hole? Or Rayon hole if that was your flavour

I was under the impression that if it wasn’t made of splines and contained no floating point gaming GPUs had limited utility. They weren’t really general computing or even sim devices. Perhaps my information is old.

 

[bombastinator]

Yea, a huge ball of...something. Just thinking about laminar flow and (better) achieving that while minimizing bypass air... in a chaotic system involving significant changes in thermodynamics....reminds me of rocket science!

And thank you, I had assumed most do trial and error along with learned knowledge from others who made the previous trials and errors.

They do. It’s specific to each atty though, and the utility can be limited. I could for instance tell you my opinions on the best placement for a single coil on an aromamizer plus and then have three people totally disagree with me, but that’s the kind of thing you’d likely get.

 

[GOMuniEsq]

@GOMuniEsq – wouldn’t the inner diameter of a coil be referred to as the cotton hole? Or Rayon hole if that was your flavour

lol sure! Or perhaps the wicking tunnel. Why not saturation tube?

Looks like what I call the coil length can also be called the coil width since the orthogonal measurement is already known as the the outer diameter.

Thanks @TrollDragon for pointing out that the feature does already exist in steam-engine for predictable roundwire coils.

 

[bombastinator]

lol sure! Or perhaps the wicking tunnel. Why not saturation tube?

Looks like what I call the coil length can also be called the coil width since the orthogonal measurement is already known as the the outer diameter.

Thanks @TrollDragon for pointing out that the feature does already exist in steam-engine for predictable roundwire coils.

I want to call it the snorkel. No good reason. I just like saying “snorkel”. It’s almost as good as “spudger”. Snorkel is arguably fitting for airflow of a bottom airflow tank though.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Your as sick as I AM!
Don't you just luv watching Einstein-Rosen effects! I do : )

And um, SpaceEngine is a free similar experience too : )

Space Engine is fun, but focus more on graphical details exploring a virtual universe, even if there is some fact to that universe. Universal Sandbox is an actual astrophysics simulator where you can physically simulate the creation of a planet just from space dust. Bombard Mars with a bunch if ice comets and you can see how the planet evolves. Speed up or slow down time. It’s quite amazing.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

I was under the impression that if it wasn’t made of splines and contained no floating point gaming GPUs had limited utility. They weren’t really general computing or even sim devices. Perhaps my information is old.

Computing fluid dynamics is actually quite old, there are even online simulators that run off simple Java or Flash. As for gaming, they have been using fluid dynamics for quite some time – like Geoff Crammond’s Grand Prix from back in the 90’s was extremely complex despite it’s graphics was very basic.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

If you look at the right hand table in this example you will see the calculated coil width.
Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators

Yes coil width is calculated within Steam. Based on my interpretation I thought the OP meant the width between legs.

 

[TrollDragon]

The width between the coil legs would be different for each atty and build. I rarely have a build where the legs are parallel to the edge of the coil. You adjust the legs so the coil is centered in the airflow. I build for a heat flux between 220-300 depending on the atty.

Take the Velocity Mini for example if you built a coil that was as wide as the post holes there would be no room for wick on the sides, it's 11mm between the holes on that. The legs are bent on these coils to center the build in the airflow.

22ga KA1 10/9 wrap 3.5mm 0.3 ohms.

22ga N80 build in the KRMA. If you built this so the legs would be straight coming off the coil, the coil would be so wide that only half of it would be in the airflow on each side. Coil centered in the airflow, legs get adjusted as needed.

 

[Kennneth]

If you look at the right hand table in this example you will see the calculated coil width.
Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators

Well...
It doesn't work in this instance. Correct length is 2.89mm. I see why though. I was curious that there just wasn't a box here with "Length = Wraps 'rounded up' X Width + ( (Wraps -1) X Wrap spacing) )"

Not every having build one, I was just thinking about these dimensions re: coverage/effect of air hole and volume of space coil takes up (air bypass space) in the vap chamber.

Just preparing for that first RTA build! I really appreciate the discussions, I learn a lot from them : )

 

[Kennneth]

Based on my interpretation I thought the OP meant the width between legs.

In my mind, they should be as they'd come off perpendicular to the coil (outside to outside measurement ) and stay straight into the posts spaced at that distance too... but it's a mess in here!