Substitute FA maple syrup for TFA maple syrup

[deezdrama]

I have a recipe that calls for TFA maple syrup but wondered if FA maple syrup would be used at same percentage for a substitute.
I know generally FA flavors are more concentrated but cant find much info on this one. Anyone have firsthand knowledge on this flavor?

Thanks.

 

[WhiteHighlights]

I have FA Maple Syrup but don't have first hand experience with TFA. My FA mixes are generally 4-6% flavorings total. I've done Maple Cream Cookies with 1% of the syrup and it was tasty (3 other ingredients were 1% each too).

I still use some TFA and Cap flavors, but stopped doing high flavor percentage mixes, I find them heavy now (best description I can give you). I have a recipe on file (never made it) using TFA Maple Syrup that calls for 5% Maple Syrup and 15% Waffle.

Not knowing your recipe and how intense you want the flavor, I'd suggest you start with less of the FA Maple Syrup. You can always add more if you want it.

 

[deezdrama]

Its a really complex cavendish tobacco recipe from hurricane vapors released recipe book.
I made 100ml of base flavor concentrate and followed the recipe except I used FA maple instead of tfa maple.
It has a barbecue sauce taste and trying to determine if it just needs to steep or if it was the FA maple that I used at same % to sub tfa maple.

Before i used the FA maple I read notes for both maples on eliquid recipe forum and FA seemed to require less percentage for single flavor preferred % but still alot of people preferred both at a 2-6% so I assumed it would be safe to sub it at same%
The recipe calls for a small amount of hickory smoke tfa and i swear. That mixing with the maple is creating this bbq sauce flavor i never noticed when i bought this juice last time.
The flavor profile is there ...I just hope the bbq sauce flavor goes away after a good steep as I made 100ml of base flavoring which is enough to mix into 1000ml of juice.

 

[IDJoel]

Before i used the FA maple I read notes for both maples on eliquid recipe forum and FA seemed to require less percentage for single flavor preferred % but still alot of people preferred both at a 2-6% so I assumed it would be safe to sub it at same%

Time m a y... help; but 4% of FA maple syrup sounds high. I realize you did this as a straight flavor base so I hope it will dilute out enough when you add your PG/VG/nic to it. If you were to use your finished flavor base at a 20% ratio to your unflavored that would put the maple at 0.8% of the total mix (if my arithmetic isn't all wrong ).

As for using the info from "that" other forum: I don't use the info the same way. If we look at them together:

And TFA's:

BOTH the mixed (left column) and single-flavor (right column) are about HALF for FA compared to TFA. I also try to remind myself that the mixed column does not differentiate between the flavor being used as a primary flavor verses as a secondary or accent flavor. So IF I am using it in an accent capacity I will start even lower than the "Average Mixing Quantity." I realize this is just my take but it works for me.

I am totally guessing here, but I think the "BBQ" you are getting is more from the Hickory Smoke and not the Maple Syrup, but I could be completely full of manure (I often am ). If you used the called-for amount and brand of the Hickory Smoke; I personally would expect it to calm down with time (and maybe some time with the top open too).

I think a good part of finding what you remember is going to be landing on the correct "flavor base" to "unflavored base" ratio. You have enough to experiment with; I would start mixing small (5-15mL total/ready-to-vape) batches of various flavor-to-unflavored ratios (such as: 10%flavor/90%unflavored, 15%f/85%u, 20%f/80%u....) and see what different aging methods do for them too (open top vs. closed top, heat vs. no heat, etc.). I would also be writing lots of notes and taste-vaping frequently.

With 100 mL I hope you find something that works. I would hate to think you wasted that much flavoring on a lost cause (my wallet is shuddering! ).

Good luck to you. Keep us informed on your progress.

 

[deezdrama]

The recipe calls for 8 flavors.
The main flavor is black honey tobacco from tfa at 6%
The next highest is tfa maple at 1.2% which I used FA maple at 1.2%
Then is black fire tobacco at 1%
The recipe called for black fire from ecigexpress but when i went to ecigexpress the first black fire I seen was from FA so assumed that was it and thats what I used at 1%

The rest of the flavors....
Ry4 double
Western
Belg waffle
French vanilla deluxe
Hickory smoke
And sweetener are all just small accent amounts and I used what the recipe called for.

So.... im not sure about the black fire but I probaly do have too much maple flavor in there. Maybe the maple and the smoke of the black fire being too strong and making the bbq sauce flavor.

I have enough of the flavors left to make a small amount more. Maybe I should order the 2 flavors I screwed up on and make a proper batch of this recipe to flavor test against the bbq sauce batch.
I might be able to save it by doubling the 100ml flavor concentrate but ommiting the black fire and maple...that would put them at half strength of the FA flavors compared to the tfa flavors i strayed from.

Uggggg..... i should of made small test batch first. Lesson learned

 

[IDJoel]

but 4% of FA maple syrup sounds high.

Sorry! Read your latest post and then re-read the entire thread to date. I have NO idea where I got 4% from! Please disregard the first paragraph of my previous post.

So; let's reset and see if we can figure things out.

Its a really complex cavendish tobacco recipe from hurricane vapors released recipe book.

Twilight Cavendish was the only one that used any maple.
Is this the recipe you were attempting to replicate? (in the 100mL volume you made):

Correct?
(Note: I see 2 issues with this spread sheet: #1 The author has chosen to round up to whole milliliters; the French Vanilla should more accurately be 7.5mL vs. 8.0mL, and the RY4 Double should be .5mL vs. 1.0mL. #2 The author's percentages are displayed with the decimal point 1 place to the left too many for the mL's displayed (example: 60mL of Black Honey in a 100mL batch size is 60% of total; not 6% of total)... perhaps the author is suggesting a total flavor base usage of 10%??? Add up the total milliliters and you will get 101mL (which accounts for the rounding up))

If this is what you were going for I see to possible misunderstandings:
#1TFA Maple flavor is not the same as TFA Maple Syrup:

(screenshot taken from TFA's website: Perfumer's Apprentice)

#2 Ecig Express actually carries 2 different Black Fire Tobaccos (the third is a separate "bulk" listing for FA's offering):

(screenshot taken from Ecig Express' website: Search results for: 'black fire')
I don't think you can presume it is the FA. If you are ordering; I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to put down the extra $2 and get a small sample size of the Hongtashan version to compare.

To sum up: using a different maple/maple syrup and a different black fire will not let you get the same end product HV was originally selling. This may, or may not, be acceptable to you. Only you can decide that.

AND you will still need to work out at what percentage HV was using this flavor concentrate base at.

Get those figured out and you are in like Flynn!

 

[IDJoel]

One other additional thought. Tobacco based recipes often take extended aging (3-4 weeks or even longer). I don't know how much (if any) this can be cut down by aging the combined flavor concentrate base before adding to your PG/VG/nic. Be sure to give your experiments plenty of time to mature (again; notes can be very helpful over these longer time frames to remember how each trial progresses).

 

[deezdrama]

Thanks for the fast replies guys!

Yep its the twilight cavendish but I used the official document from HV and not that percentage updated one because I noticed the inconsistencies you pointed out.

I was in such a rush to make this flavor that I made the mistakes of ordering the wrong black fire (pretty sure its the hongtashan) and with the maple.... im trying to stay away from using acetoin and so chose the FA maple syrup.

I guess if I want the exact juice I remember then I need to use the flavors listed.
I have enough flavors left to make probably 50ml of base flavor ...just need to order the maple and hongtashan.

One good thing..... I warm bathed the twilight juice I made last night then shook the bleep out of it untill it was foamy at the top. Let it sit with lid off overnight and untill I got off work and its much better today. The bbq sauce taste is gone.
I smelled the straight hickory smoke flavor extract and it indeed smells just like the nasty bbq flavor i was getting. That taste definately needs time to steep away.

I should of made small batch but got impatient.... costly lesson learned.

 

[IDJoel]

One good thing..... I warm bathed the twilight juice I made last night then shook the bleep out of it untill it was foamy at the top. Let it sit with lid off overnight and untill I got off work and its much better today. The bbq sauce taste is gone.

Glad to hear it is shaping up! Patience definitely is a huge benefit. I find it best to have several projects going at the same time so I don't fixate and try to rush things. It sounds like you learned one of my early lessons; start small!

Best wishes on your future endeavors!