Symptomatic Differences Between Nicotine OD and Dehydration

[Mindfield]

Some folks here know that I've been looking to cut down on my nicotine because it seems as though my body has either developed or always had a particular sensitivity to nicotine that was never really triggered until I'd spent some few months vaping 24mg and, more specifically, increasing my vapor production (and therefore nicotine delivery) through variable voltage and modded CE2s.

Now, I've always consumed what I thought was an adequate supply of water on a daily basis -- typically at least 1 to 1.5L, and I have thus far attributed the mild headaches, ringing in my ears and occasional fits of mild nausea to excess intake of nicotine, both because the symptoms seemed to fit and because although I'd never even considered the possibility of dehydration, I wasn't really all that thirsty while experiencing the symptoms.

But I got to thinking a little bit about the fact that ordinarily, dehydration is simply the lack of water intake. Our bodies tell us that we're not getting enough water by way of triggering the feeling of thirst. We feel it, we drink, problem solved. Plus, merely being thirsty never really gave me headaches or nausea before.

But then as vapers, dehydration occurs differently or us because we're deliberately inhaling a humectant that's dehydrating us from the inside out, and while that can tend to dry out mouth out, a swig of liquid is enough to solve that -- but not necessarily enough to supply the body with the amount of water it needs to solve its dehydration issue.

So I wondered if whether or not maybe part of my problem was dehydration and not entirely too much nicotine, because the symptoms of dehydration versus nicotine poisoning have some striking similarities:

• Abdominal cramps
• Agitation, restlessness, or excitement
• Muscular twitching
• Breathing - rapid
• Breathing - stops
• Burning sensation in mouth
• Coma
• Confusion
• Convulsions
• Depression
• Difficulty breathing
• Drooling (increased salivation)
• Fainting
• Headache
• Heartbeat - pounding and rapid, followed by slow heart rate
• High blood pressure, which then drops
• Vomiting
• Weakness

This list from the National Institute of Health (the above links transferred with the C&P and link to the NIH's definitions for those symptoms.)

As for dehydration:

Symptoms of dehydration usually begin with thirst and progress to more alarming manifestations as the need for water becomes more dire. The initial signs and symptoms of mild dehydration in adults appear when the body has lost about 2% of it's total fluid. These mild dehydration symptoms are often (but not limited to):

• Thirst
• Loss of Appetite
• Dry Skin
• Skin Flushing
• Dark Colored Urine
• Dry Mouth
• fatigue or Weakness
• Chills
• Head Rushes

If the dehydration is allowed to continue unabated, when the total fluid loss reaches 5% the following effects of dehydration are normally experienced:

• Increased heart rate
• Increased respiration
• Decreased sweating
• Decreased urination
• Increased body temperature
• Extreme fatigue
• Muscle cramps
• Headaches
• Nausea
• Tingling of the limbs

This from a site that seems dedicated specifically to detailing the symptoms of dehydration. They don't cite their references but do link to Wiki. Neverthelss those are pretty well known symptoms, but of particular note -- because we're talking about what I figured were fairly mild symptoms -- were the symptoms of headaches, nausea and high blood pressure (vis a vis increased heart rate). These three symptoms in particular are common to both nicotine poisoning and dehydration, are two of the primary physiological issues we vapers concern ourselves with, and appear to be the most commonly experienced among the majority of vapers even taking into account the "everyone is different" mantra. None of them list ringing of the ears as a symptom, but I think that's largely just caused by the high blood pressure.

So that has led me to wonder: How do we tell when we're taking in too much nicotine or merely dehydrated? If the trigger of feeling thirsty isn't necessarily a reliable indicator of dehydration, and the low-level symptoms of both dehydration and nicotine OD can be similar, how do we know which is which?

I've wondered because my cutting down from 24mg to 12mg has only helped to a certain extent, and I'm still feeling what I thought were the effects of nicotine OD even at 12mg, which struck me as odd, and even limiting my vaping hasn't really made the symptoms go away, but when I started drinking more water even when I wasn't particularly thirsty, I did notice the headache mostly went away. The ringing in my ears is still there even now but I'm going to see if it calms down with more water intake while retaining my normal vape pace.

But if anyone cares to share some ideas or experiences on the matter I'd love to hear them.

 

[bjannr]

There are definitely similarities. If your symptoms are from dehydration, maybe increasing your nic level would have you vape a bit less, therefore cutting down your chance of dehydration. Just my own thought.

 

[Levitas]

I get all three of those 'combined' symptoms when I vape high level nic strengths, and you can also add sore throat to the list as well, for me personally.

An example, a good buddy of mine here on the ECF sent me some 24mg juice to try out. I normally vape 12mg, but I figured a couple of puffs of the 'hard' stuff wouldn't really hurt. After literally 5 or maybe 6 puffs, my head starts reeling and aching. I start feeling nauseated, and 1-2 more puffs later, my throat was sore and dry, even though I was still drinking copious amounts of water.

It took a couple of hours before I could vape my 12mg without any repercussions. So, I attribute my personal symptoms, obviously, to be caused by the high level of nicotine. However, this could also be because I myself had been vaping 12mg for so many months so my body wasn't prepared for such a high level, so quickly. I don't think I need to explain to you that everyone is different. So, sharing our stories might give you a better edge on figuring out why you're having such issues, but at the same time, maybe not.

I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Deathsnuggle]

I think some symptoms are due to dehydration, when it is very hot and I loose fluids due to sweat, I don't feel like vaping at all. The first drag will make me sick. also some fluids absolutely don't agree with my system, such as honeydew apple pie, tasty, but drives my stomach into a knot. Another thing I've noticed which may help you is, vaping on An empty stomach. I HAVE to eat before I vape, no matter how hydrated I am. If I haven't had a snack, or a meal, or something, I get the same symptoms you do, bad nausea, head ache. If i'm having a nicotine craving and I haven't eaten, i'm skrewed till I eat something, or I'll feel like hell.

 

[Mindfield]

Well, the one thing I do know is that there is at least some component of nicotine OD, at least when I was vaping 24mg. The one symptom I experienced at 24mg on VV was palpitations, a symptom present with nicotine poisoning but not dehydration, so that much I know is all about the nicotine dosage. However once I dropped to 12mg that pretty much stopped, so it has become harder to determine how much of the symptoms are still residual nic OD symptoms and how much, if any, are related to dehydration. I'm currently trying to consume more water than I do normally to see if that helps any. I can say the low-level headache seems to have disappeared, but that's not a guarantee of anything. As the saying goes, correlation does not imply causation.

 

[Levitas]

As the saying goes, correlation does not imply causation.

Absolutely.

Have you since tried to vape 24mg again?

If I am getting this correctly, you're having negative nicotine related symptoms with 24mg and you're having dehydration issues with 12mg? Have you tried an 18mg?

Or, are you having simultaneous issues with any given nic-strength?

 

[GIMike]

I still wonder about the dehydration really being a serious issue. I don't really drink water, mainly soda, coffee, tea, etc (yes, i know it's unhealthy, so are the chips i eat for lunch, and driving too fast on my motorcycle). In any case, I know dehydration better than most. When I was in the military and was actually a physical person, I would get dehydrated every so often and would have to get anywhere from 2 - 4 bags of saline to catch myself up. So I got to know really well what the signs of dehydration were before I got sick so I could catch it before it got bad. I don't really see any of that with vaping any more than normal. May just boil down to the "everybody's different" thing too. I dunno....

 

[wdave]

Some folks here know that I've been looking to cut down on my nicotine because it seems as though my body has either developed or always had a particular sensitivity to nicotine that was never really triggered until I'd spent some few months vaping 24mg and, more specifically, increasing my vapor production (and therefore nicotine delivery) through variable voltage and modded CE2s.

Now, I've always consumed what I thought was an adequate supply of water on a daily basis -- typically at least 1 to 1.5L, and I have thus far attributed the mild headaches, ringing in my ears and occasional fits of mild nausea to excess intake of nicotine, both because the symptoms seemed to fit and because although I'd never even considered the possibility of dehydration, I wasn't really all that thirsty while experiencing the symptoms.

But I got to thinking a little bit about the fact that ordinarily, dehydration is simply the lack of water intake. Our bodies tell us that we're not getting enough water by way of triggering the feeling of thirst. We feel it, we drink, problem solved. Plus, merely being thirsty never really gave me headaches or nausea before.

But then as vapers, dehydration occurs differently or us because we're deliberately inhaling a humectant that's dehydrating us from the inside out, and while that can tend to dry out mouth out, a swig of liquid is enough to solve that -- but not necessarily enough to supply the body with the amount of water it needs to solve its dehydration issue.

So I wondered if whether or not maybe part of my problem was dehydration and not entirely too much nicotine, because the symptoms of dehydration versus nicotine poisoning have some striking similarities:



This list from the National Institute of Health (the above links transferred with the C&P and link to the NIH's definitions for those symptoms.)

As for dehydration:



This from a site that seems dedicated specifically to detailing the symptoms of dehydration. They don't cite their references but do link to Wiki. Neverthelss those are pretty well known symptoms, but of particular note -- because we're talking about what I figured were fairly mild symptoms -- were the symptoms of headaches, nausea and high blood pressure (vis a vis increased heart rate). These three symptoms in particular are common to both nicotine poisoning and dehydration, are two of the primary physiological issues we vapers concern ourselves with, and appear to be the most commonly experienced among the majority of vapers even taking into account the "everyone is different" mantra. None of them list ringing of the ears as a symptom, but I think that's largely just caused by the high blood pressure.

So that has led me to wonder: How do we tell when we're taking in too much nicotine or merely dehydrated? If the trigger of feeling thirsty isn't necessarily a reliable indicator of dehydration, and the low-level symptoms of both dehydration and nicotine OD can be similar, how do we know which is which?

I've wondered because my cutting down from 24mg to 12mg has only helped to a certain extent, and I'm still feeling what I thought were the effects of nicotine OD even at 12mg, which struck me as odd, and even limiting my vaping hasn't really made the symptoms go away, but when I started drinking more water even when I wasn't particularly thirsty, I did notice the headache mostly went away. The ringing in my ears is still there even now but I'm going to see if it calms down with more water intake while retaining my normal vape pace.

But if anyone cares to share some ideas or experiences on the matter I'd love to hear them.

Thanks for being so helpful. I suspected dehydration when I first started vaping. But I still had symptoms after drinking more fluids. Nicotine is a stomach irritant. But so are PG and VG along with other ingredients in juice which are added to increase throat hit. I wound up at the doctors with the beginnings of an ulcer. Using a combination of 36 mg juice, avoiding juice that burns my throat, avoiding thick saturated vapor, sticking with PG and taking an occasional Prilosec, I seem to have no more problems Oh yeah, stay away from menthol.

But as with everything concerning ecigs, there is no guarantee that I'm not doing serious harm to my stomach. Sorry, but everyone who vapes is in the same boat as I am.

HTH,
Dave

 

[Mindfield]

Absolutely.

Have you since tried to vape 24mg again?

If I am getting this correctly, you're having negative nicotine related symptoms with 24mg and you're having dehydration issues with 12mg? Have you tried an 18mg?

Or, are you having simultaneous issues with any given nic-strength?

Well, this is what I'm really trying to determine -- where the line is drawn between the two possibilities, or if there is even a line to be drawn in the first place. Is it all nic OD or is dehydration a factor? Or is it the entire factor? I'd never really given thought to dehydration before today because I'd always simply assumed I was getting enough, since I normally consumed what I considered to be a decent amount of water on a daily basis. But the thought struck me this morning to look up the full list of symptoms and preferably a timeline in order of severity for dehydration, and seeing commonalities between that and nic poisoning made me wonder.

The thing is, when switching to my ProVari, I got more vapor (and more nic) per hit at higher voltages. Since one necessarily increased with the other it's hard to say what's what. When I got the Fluxomizers and modded them, vapor again increased -- much more significantly this time -- and the symptoms got worse, and included heart palpitations, the one symptom I was experiencing that was unique to nic poisoning, so that's really what led me to the conclusion that it was all about the nicotine, and thus why I cut down.

But vapor increased proportionally to the nic intake at the same nic level, so hindsight now has me questioning whether dehydration didn't play a role. I have not yet tried bumping my nic back up, but I am going to do so once I am satisfied that I have a handle on how extra hydration while maintaining the same vape pace and current nic level is treating me.

 

[Mindfield]

I still wonder about the dehydration really being a serious issue. I don't really drink water, mainly soda, coffee, tea, etc (yes, i know it's unhealthy, so are the chips i eat for lunch, and driving too fast on my motorcycle). In any case, I know dehydration better than most. When I was in the military and was actually a physical person, I would get dehydrated every so often and would have to get anywhere from 2 - 4 bags of saline to catch myself up. So I got to know really well what the signs of dehydration were before I got sick so I could catch it before it got bad. I don't really see any of that with vaping any more than normal. May just boil down to the "everybody's different" thing too. I dunno....

And this is an area with which I have very little experience as I've never really been in a situation where I've been dehydrated to such a degree. But what has got me thinking wasn't quite so much the fact of dehydration so much as the manner: Whereas normally dehydration occurs as a result of the simple lack of fluid intake, and at a predictable pace based on your level of exertion and body's usage of those fluids, vaping is something different. We're inhaling a humectant that is actively drawing moisture from our body from the inside, and that's over and above what our body is using normally, so I wonder if that doesn't make a significant enough difference.

Thanks for being so helpful. I suspected dehydration when I first started vaping. But I still had symptoms after drinking more fluids. Nicotine is a stomach irritant. But so are PG and VG along with other ingredients in juice which are added to increase throat hit. I wound up at the doctors with the beginnings of an ulcer. Using a combination of 36 mg juice, avoiding juice that burns my throat, avoiding thick saturated vapor, sticking with PG and taking an occasional Prilosec, I seem to have no more problems Oh yeah, stay away from menthol.

But as with everything concerning ecigs, there is no guarantee that I'm not doing serious harm to my stomach. Sorry, but everyone who vapes is in the same boat as I am.

HTH,
Dave

For me I have no trouble vaping on an empty stomach, and have no problem with menthols or mints of any sort -- at least, not that I know of. I can try different PG/VG balances without any problem -- I've actually been experimenting with higher VG ratios lately, but these symptoms predate such endeavors, and I've had no trouble vaping various PG/VG mixes in the past, though I tend to stick to around 20-30% VG out of preference.

But I'll definitely be trying out higher nic again to see if that worsens the problem.

 

[wdave]

Always good to keep an open mind. I try to remember that if it is burning my throat, it's probably going to burn my stomach. Works that way with Jalepinios

Also--high nic does give me a headache. Helps keep from chain vaping.

 

[Nunnster]

As someone who has taken two 1.5 L bags of saline from a medic because of severe dehydration, and also gave myself a mild/moderate OD on nic (thought I could dip a whole can of cope in a few hours) on two independent occasions. I can say first had that the symptoms are similar. Esp. the headaches, nausea, dizziness, vision blur and, strangely, ......... Also take note that some people (myself included) mistake feeling hungry for thrust. I always try and drink something first if I feel hungry when its not "eating time" and usually it helps. If you are dehydrated, it takes more then a day to get your body back on track. It can take up to a week to get your body back to where it should be with proper fluid intake. A good indicator for me is the color and smell of my urine and how frequently I urinate. If my urine is anything other then pail yellow, or smells strongly I know I need to up my water intake. Also I know that If for my body if I am not urinating once every 3 hours or so I need to up my water intake as well. I drank over a gal of water a day before I even started vaping though, got into the habit while in Iraq. Now that Im not exerting myself as much as I used to, I dont really keep track as well, but I have a huge L cup that I refill at least 5 times a day.

Edit: I really need to learn how to type.

 

[GIMike]

but see, your body is used to that nunn. people like myself may not require as much water. everybody's different. also, you aren't mistaking hunger for thirst. you're just fighting the hunger feeling with water instead. that's a dieting trick, not a mistake on anybody's part

 

[Nunnster]

This is true that my body is used to that sorta intake of water. However there is study's siting that people often mistake hunger for thirst. Just a simple goggle will come up with 1000's of reports saying so. Drinking Water Week: May 6-12, 2007 the first page when googled that come up clearly states that hunger can be mistaken for thirst. Most of the pages below that also echo this.

 

[Mindfield]

Always good to keep an open mind. I try to remember that if it is burning my throat, it's probably going to burn my stomach. Works that way with Jalepinios

For me, there's still one more sensitive area that'll burn if I have enough of it and wait long enough.

Also--high nic does give me a headache. Helps keep from chain vaping.

True -- but I'm trying to find a happy medium here where I can still enjoy it without hitting that nicotine wall but also keep hydrated enough. I really like vaping. I just want to figure out what it is that's keeping me from properly enjoying it.

As someone who has taken two 1.5 L bags of saline from a medic because of severe dehydration, and also gave myself a mild/moderate OD on nic (thought I could dip a whole can of cope in a few hours) on two independent occasions. I can say first had that the symptoms are similar. Esp. the headaches, nausea, dizziness, vision blur and, strangely, ......... Also take note that some people (myself included) mistake feeling hungry for thrust. I always try and drink something first if I feel hungry when its not "eating time" and usually it helps. If you are dehydrated, it takes more then a day to get your body back on track. It can take up to a week to get your body back to where it should be with proper fluid intake. A good indicator for me is the color and smell of my urine and how frequently I urinate. If my urine is anything other then pail yellow, or smells strongly I know I need to up my water intake. Also I know that If for my body if I am not urinating once every 3 hours or so I need to up my water intake as well. I drank over a gal of water a day before I even started vaping though, got into the habit while in Iraq. Now that Im not exerting myself as much as I used to, I dont really keep track as well, but I have a huge L cup that I refill at least 5 times a day.

Edit: I really need to learn how to type.

Good to know. As is always said everyone is different, but there are some areas in which I think most of us are going to be the same because the symptoms of common (or at least predictable and well-understood) events generally present the same way. But it seems that this in itself is what's going to make it harder to figure out what's going on exactly. But one thing at a time and see where that leads me I suppose -- the trusty scientific method.

 

[grandmato5]

There's also another possiblity I don't see anyone mentioning here and that is a senitivity for you to something in your juice. Yours could be entirely different then mine but here's my own discovery of one flavoring's effect on me.

As strange as it sounds, I've found I can not tolerate more than a small amount of Vienna Cream flavoring. I love Vienna Cream juice but it doesn't love me. It took me a while to figure out it was the flavoring that was causing me the problem. Heart palpatations, skin flushing, nausua, and mild headaches. When it first dawned on me that the flavoring could be the source of the problem I spend a couple weeks totally avoiding it and experienced no symptoms at all and then one night I purposely vaped it to see what would happen and sure enough all the symptoms appeared after vaping it for about an hour. I've played with it more than once and the same thing always occurs. A 15-30 vape of the flavoring doesn't appear to cause any negatives effects at all but longer then that and the symptoms slowly start to appear for me. Its also possible for me to be fine if the recipe for the juice only calls for a few drops of vienna cream but anything more than those few drops in a recipe mixed with other flavors and I will be effected.